How does Excommunication work on Golarion?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So this thought popped into my head. With all the various churches and cults on Golarion, one has to wonder what the procedure is for excommunication. Excommunication, as a part of a backstory, can make a great starting point for heroes and villains alike.

Paizo uses excommunication in their backstories for some characters. Szuriel was excommunicated from her faith before she became the Horseman of War. Though her example is kind of threadbare, as she was likely born on another planet and burned it down to nothing when she seized her current title.

That being said, reading over the Inner Sea Gods book, the faiths of the Inner Sea are very loosely organized. Some nations adopt a faith as their primary form of worship, but otherwise, the various temples are very independent of each other. Lastwall and Mendev are firmly in Iomedae's camp, with Nidal under Zon-Kuthon's thumb. And of course, we can't forget Cheliax and their relationship with Asmodeus.

Given that the Gods are very real in the setting, an excommunication is probably partially influenced by divine forces. But given that the Atonement spell is frequently used to absolve transgressions of the faith, excommunication would have to be because of a very serious offense to the church.


Excommunication just means you get booted out of the church. It doesn't necessarily involve any gods or anything. Doesn't have a real effect on anything, assuming you still worship the god.


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An important distinction I would make in my campaign is between excommunication, the humans running your church kick you out, and Excommunication, your Deity literally turned its back on you and will no longer hear your prayers.

A theme I work with is the distinction between the will/rules of the church and the will/rules of the Deity. At tables that don't use this idea my whole post here is likely irrelevant.


The term 'excommunicate'(et al) does not appear in any of the hardback core product line of paizo published material. (I just did a search)

So it's just a real world thing that has not been modelled or described within the game. It's not really anything new.
Excommunication is a process within a church and the clergy where they determine a specific person(or organization/philosophy/etc) is not welcome and should be shunned to anathema or an enemy of the church. I'm not catholic so I'd reference their material and historical documents.

In a practical manner and what is in game is seeking an Atonement with a new faith.

There are examples in books describing protagonists seeking a deeper or renewed faith.


My Life Is In Ruins wrote:

The term 'excommunicate'(et al) does not appear in any of the hardback core product line of paizo published material. (I just did a search)

So it's just a real world thing that has not been modelled or described within the game. It's not really anything new.
Excommunication is a process within a church and the clergy where they determine a specific person(or organization/philosophy/etc) is not welcome and should be shunned to anathema or an enemy of the church. I'm not catholic so I'd reference their material and historical documents.

In a practical manner and what is in game is seeking an Atonement with a new faith.

There are examples in books describing protagonists seeking a deeper or renewed faith.

The process doesn't. But excommunication is mentioned as the starting point in Szuriel's backstory and fall from grace in both the original Campaign Setting companion books and recent re-release of the Book of the Damned. So it's something that can happen in the setting.


Java Man wrote:

An important distinction I would make in my campaign is between excommunication, the humans running your church kick you out, and Excommunication, your Deity literally turned its back on you and will no longer hear your prayers.

A theme I work with is the distinction between the will/rules of the church and the will/rules of the Deity. At tables that don't use this idea my whole post here is likely irrelevant.

I feel that the two variants need different names to sell the point home. It has real potential.


Madokar Valortouched wrote:
My Life Is In Ruins wrote:

The term 'excommunicate'(et al) does not appear in any of the hardback core product line of paizo published material. (I just did a search)

So it's just a real world thing that has not been modelled or described within the game. It's not really anything new.
Excommunication is a process within a church and the clergy where they determine a specific person(or organization/philosophy/etc) is not welcome and should be shunned to anathema or an enemy of the church. I'm not catholic so I'd reference their material and historical documents.

In a practical manner and what is in game is seeking an Atonement with a new faith.

There are examples in books describing protagonists seeking a deeper or renewed faith.

The process doesn't. But excommunication is mentioned as the starting point in Szuriel's backstory and fall from grace in both the original Campaign Setting companion books and recent re-release of the Book of the Damned. So it's something that can happen in the setting.

Many of the things in the original setting books don't apply in the PF version. I would go to the James Jacobs thread to get a more official answer since the core campaign book doesn't have any rules on it.


wraithstrike wrote:
Madokar Valortouched wrote:
My Life Is In Ruins wrote:

The term 'excommunicate'(et al) does not appear in any of the hardback core product line of paizo published material. (I just did a search)

So it's just a real world thing that has not been modelled or described within the game. It's not really anything new.
Excommunication is a process within a church and the clergy where they determine a specific person(or organization/philosophy/etc) is not welcome and should be shunned to anathema or an enemy of the church. I'm not catholic so I'd reference their material and historical documents.

In a practical manner and what is in game is seeking an Atonement with a new faith.

There are examples in books describing protagonists seeking a deeper or renewed faith.

The process doesn't. But excommunication is mentioned as the starting point in Szuriel's backstory and fall from grace in both the original Campaign Setting companion books and recent re-release of the Book of the Damned. So it's something that can happen in the setting.
Many of the things in the original setting books don't apply in the PF version. I would go to the James Jacobs thread to get a more official answer since the core campaign book doesn't have any rules on it.

James Jacobs has his own FAQ thread? I need to spend more time on the forums, apparently.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think there are two issues that would come up with an excommunication:

1) Does the person excommunicating somebody actually have the power to cut a person off from his patron deity? Given the heretical and apocryphal cults that exist, such a situation seems unlikely. But I suppose that some deities might have better unified churches than others, so that they might be able to give their favored servants the power to cut off a priest that they feel has grossly gone against that deity's tenets.

2) Is this church the state church anywhere? In Catholicism, excommunication had a major effect only in countries where it is the official religion, as being excommunicated conferred major social stigma. In Golarion, there could be serious negative social consequences to being excommunicated from the Church of Asmodeus in Cheliax or from the Church of Zon-Kuthon in Nidal, but no church is powerful enough to make that stigma spread much beyond a given country.

I suppose that excommunication from one of the good aligned churches could have a weaker but broader effect on a person's reputation, as (for example) somebody who was excommunicated from the Church of Iomedae might have trouble getting people to accept him as a champion of virtue.


I imagine it's mostly for factional in-fighting within churches rather than a threat against the nobility.

As a result, it generally involves a divine-casting hit squad or assassins getting hired if things have gotten that dire.

David knott 242 wrote:
1) Does the person excommunicating somebody actually have the power to cut a person off from his patron deity? Given the heretical and apocryphal cults that exist, such a situation seems unlikely. But I suppose that some deities might have better unified churches than others, so that they might be able to give their favored servants the power to cut off a priest that they feel has grossly gone against that deity's tenets.

There is an Inquisitor spell that cuts off a divine caster's spellcasting ability, unless I'm smoking crazy pills, but if they use it when the deity doesn't want them to, then they lose their spellcasting ability.

Which sort of goes back to, well, why aren't we just doing it the old-fashioned way where the deity takes away their casting, again? Again, unless I'm smoking crazy pills, they haven't changed the rules so that deities cannot rescind their powers from divine characters if they really want to. (Aside from in the case of Oracles, I think, where they have the same sort of idea as Favored Souls from D&D 3.5, it's divine power but more of a leak that neither party can really help and the mortal isn't beholden to the divine source as in other cases)

It makes more sense to me, given what's established and the paradigm and all those other words, that if such a spell exists, it's a spell for severing other deities' divine servants from them. On several levels, anyway, I can almost sorta see one if I squint where the baseline use of the spell as actually was written and created and implemented is concerned.

For instance, if the deity in question really likes showy trials and public knowledge of why a priest is no longer able to cast spells and doesn't want to spare outsider servants to keep such systems in place when an order of Inquisitors devoted to the service will do.


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First...

Reprobation:
Reprobation
Source Ultimate Magic pg. 1 (Amazon)
School transmutation [curse, see text]; Level cleric/oracle 5, druid 5, hunter 5, inquisitor 4, paladin 4, warpriest 5
Casting
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, DF
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature of your faith
Duration permanent
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
Description
You cast the target out of your religion as a curse and punishment for acts or misdeeds against the tenets of your faith. This has three effects.

First, the target is marked with a magical symbol visible only to members of your faith. This symbol indicates that the target has transgressed and that the faithful should not help it. Likewise, the target is not to be persecuted because of the mark (though this would not keep members of a lawful faith from imprisoning a known criminal if these crimes were known to have taken place after he gained the mark).

Second, the target is no longer affected by helpful spells cast by the faithful and is always treated as an enemy for the purpose of other spells cast by those of your faith. For example, cure light wounds cast by a member of your faith has no effect on the target. If the target were traveling with a cleric of your faith who cast prayer, that spell would penalize rather than aid the target, despite the target’s friendship with the cleric.

Third, if the target is a divine spellcaster, a member of a prestige class of your faith, or otherwise has some ability because the target belongs to your faith, it cannot use those abilities while the mark remains in place. For example, a paladin of your faith would be unable to cast paladin spells or use lay on hands or other class abilities. The target can join another faith to regain the use of these abilities, but the mark remains visible to those of your faith, even if those of the new faith accept the target.

This powerful spell with no saving throw is used to punish severe transgressions that do not deserve death or when you prefer to be merciful rather than meting out a more severe punishment. However, the spell has one drawback that prevents it from being overused. If the target did not commit any acts or misdeeds against your faith, the spell does not affect it but affects you instead, even if you are innocent of the charges. This potential backlash prevents inquisitions run by corrupt members of the faith, and it means that most accusations of misconduct are carefully investigated (and usually verified with magic) before this sentence is handed down.

This mark can be removed like any other curse effect. In addition, a member of your faith can use atonement to break the curse if he makes a caster level check against your caster level; remove curse also requires a caster of your faith and a caster level check to end the reprobation.

is what they excommunication mechanic in the form PF a spell.

Inquisitors have the excommunication inquisition, but frankly it seems like it was given the name to pun off its actual anti-verbal effects. Phhht, poor choice on naming, trying for wit and only getting halfway there


Excommunication presupposes a pretty orderly church, and one in which communication with the divine is handled by the church, not the individual.


Sissyl wrote:
Excommunication presupposes a pretty orderly church, and one in which communication with the divine is handled by the church, not the individual.

In a world without direct divine magical intervention I would agree with you. Since there IS direct divine magical intervention, Paizo included the Reprobation spell (above).

Note that inherent to the spell there is the god's direct intercession, there is no save but if the Reprobation is unjustified then it affects the caster instead. There aren't any weasel words to let a clever villain sleaze his way out of a just Reprobation. It is however subject to spell resistance, so the power of the caster is relevant.

EDIT ADD
Well, actually said villain might be able to swing an Attonement or another form of removal if he had people willing and able to do it. Inquisitors might well get snippy towards people who help this way though.


Madokar Valortouched wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Madokar Valortouched wrote:
My Life Is In Ruins wrote:

The term 'excommunicate'(et al) does not appear in any of the hardback core product line of paizo published material. (I just did a search)

So it's just a real world thing that has not been modelled or described within the game. It's not really anything new.
Excommunication is a process within a church and the clergy where they determine a specific person(or organization/philosophy/etc) is not welcome and should be shunned to anathema or an enemy of the church. I'm not catholic so I'd reference their material and historical documents.

In a practical manner and what is in game is seeking an Atonement with a new faith.

There are examples in books describing protagonists seeking a deeper or renewed faith.

The process doesn't. But excommunication is mentioned as the starting point in Szuriel's backstory and fall from grace in both the original Campaign Setting companion books and recent re-release of the Book of the Damned. So it's something that can happen in the setting.
Many of the things in the original setting books don't apply in the PF version. I would go to the James Jacobs thread to get a more official answer since the core campaign book doesn't have any rules on it.
James Jacobs has his own FAQ thread? I need to spend more time on the forums, apparently.

It's not an FAQ, but an "Ask James Jacobs" thread. Since he has input on the lore of Golarion he would likely know the answer.


An NPC cleric of a good deity in an AP has been "all but excommunicated from the priesthood" for

Spoiler:
lynching the wrong guy
and only
Spoiler:
dumb luck of the target being guilty of something else worthy of death
"kept the church from fully excommunicating the priest and even then, only if he accepted exile". Based on this it's safe to say murder is grounds for excommunication for most/all good deities.


Just by going over what some people have said, I have an idea for a home campaign. Reprobation is the closest thing to a proper excommunication out there, but as the spell says, you have to be ABSOLUTELY sure that the accused is guilty. Otherwise, it backfires on you.

On the other hand, a casting of Atonement is a way for a mortal to officially sever ties with a previous church. If someone who was raised to be a follower of Asmodeus had a change of heart or realized life in the church is not for them, a casting of Atonement by a Sarenite would render any previous vows to the Church of Asmodeus null and void. Barring the signing of an infernal contract, of course. Or any other extreme pledge to a patron deity in regards to other faiths.


Note that if you have got hit by a backfired Reprobation, it is perfectly reasonable that you could seek atonement within your own religion, assuming it was an honest mistake. I rather think if you do it too often, atonement will become more problematic. Note that clerics and inquisitors are likely to be the most common casters of Reprobation, and both have access to rather a lot of divination to help prevent erroneous Reprobations.


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While it's not explicitly called excommunication, Shelyn does drive people out if they really piss her off. Which may as well be the same thing.

Inner Sea Gods wrote:
She is greatly saddened by those who betray the ones they love, and haunts such folk within her congregation with guilt and the subtle sounds of those they betrayed until they either genuinely ask for forgiveness or abandon her faith entirely.

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