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That works...but it wasn't made for that (Spells)


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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So last night we were fighting an ogre mage who cast mirror image (The visuals of a basically nude ogress might haunt me for a while...especialy when there were 4 of them...)

Knowing that she was going to be a challenge (and was probably "The boss") I cast my Magic Missile spell and split the darts to one on each of her...

Okay, my damage sucked (I only rolled one d4 and got a 1), because we knew only one of the images was "Real"

It got me thinking, the spell is not designed to get rid of images (Basically a dispel) but it worked, what I call the butterknife screwdriver principle...What other stories do players have that they used something in an unintentional way that worked?

Another story comes from 2.5 era (Players options days), where my wizard cast cantrip (I was out of other spells) at the top of a tower where 3 ogres were chasing us. The party was out of resources, low on hit points, and basically screwed...

Cast cantrip (3 glowing balls) "This is the cantrip of DEATH!!!, when the arcane ball strikes you your flesh will dissolve, every inch of you will be as if you were on fire, and you will die. slowly. painfully. while you will not care, you will also stink up the room worse than you do already...leave NOW!

One (Terrible) moral roll later and we are safe...


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Using Magic Missile to pop a set of Mirror Images is such a clever idea that Paizo banned it. See the FAQ:

Core Rulebook FAQ wrote:

Mirror Image: Can I use magic missile to destroy one or more images from a mirror image spell?

No. Magic missile targets a creature and does not require an attack roll, so it bypasses all the images and always hits the real creature.
posted February 2012

First Edition D&D had a lot of odd side uses for spells, such as casting Light on an opponent's eyes to blind him. But in more recent decades, the developer attitude has been that a spell does exactly what the spell description says, regardless of common sense about the spell's mechanism suggesting other uses.


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Glad my GM didn't know about that FAQ (Neither did I)...

Yup, remember the "Light"=Blind days....


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Every time I see someone suggesting ray of frost to make a refrigerator. People, that's what purify food and drink is for.


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How about a Grease spell to make a Slip-N-Slide?

I had a game where a character lost an ear due to a crit. Later, he got turned to stone and, before they could use the oil of Stone to Flesh, the cleric decided to use Stone Shape to make a new ear. That turned out... different.


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Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Every time I see someone suggesting ray of frost to make a refrigerator. People, that's what purify food and drink is for.

What, never felt the need for a cold beer?


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The adventurer's restroom.

Dig a hole, put food at the bottom, do business, purify food and drink.

Repeat as necessary.


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lol... Purify Food and Drink just means you can safely eat it, that's it. Doesn't improve nutritional quality, taste, or smell. Nor does it chill the food.
Rabbits notoriously skip the spell.

yall are being silly, I know.


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Mathmuse wrote:
Using Magic Missile to pop a set of Mirror Images is such a clever idea that Paizo banned it.

Right, and what was ever the point of that? Yes, it's using a 1st level spell to counter a 2nd level spell, but it requires you to have that exact spell ready (and to have enough missiles to pop all the images). Never struck me as unbalanced; if anything, the opposite. Mirror Image is really powerful for a 2nd level spell.

Doug M.


Hold Portal applied to the toilet seat lid... sadly the duration is rather short.


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Desperate Weapon makes books(spellbooks) and wands deadly weapons (who needs Weaponwand unless you have a magical weapon). So now a wand doesn't provoke AND can do 1d6P dmg as a weapon. Apply Magic Weapon if you need a bonus to a touch atk or melee atk with the wand.


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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
Using Magic Missile to pop a set of Mirror Images is such a clever idea that Paizo banned it.

Right, and what was ever the point of that? Yes, it's using a 1st level spell to counter a 2nd level spell, but it requires you to have that exact spell ready (and to have enough missiles to pop all the images). Never struck me as unbalanced; if anything, the opposite. Mirror Image is really powerful for a 2nd level spell.

Doug M.

Well first of all, magic missile couldn't target the images anyway. It only targets creatures, and the images aren't creatures.

Secondly, nothing in the mirror image spell says the images are directly targetable (unlike in 3.5 D&D, when that was specifically called out). Instead, you attack normally and there is a chance the image is hit instead.

And lastly, mirror image says anything that doesn't require an attack roll automatically hits the creature and does not destroy any figments.

So unless the wording of the spell changed between printings of Pathfinder, nothing about either spell would even allow magic missile as a possibility of removing images.


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Applying Glyph of Warding to a ring. Yes, it's a portal albeit a tiny one and slipping the ring on enters the portal.


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Offensive use of Node of Blasting.


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No, I get that they very carefully rewrote both spells from 3.0/3.5 to make this technique impossible. My point is, it seems like a lot of effort to fix something that wasn't really broken.

Most of the rules changes from 3.5 to PF were IMO positive. But there are a few that just seem to be random, or more likely driven by one particular designer's vision of How Things Should Work. This really seems to fall into the latter category.

Doug M.


yessss... Pathfinder clarified that mirror image really requires nearly successful attack rolls to dispel an image.
Can we move on? I recognized the change in rules as time has gone by. AD&D, AD&D2, 3.0/3.5, Pathfinder. There's a change in philosophy in how the game works also. Just different. I find the biggest issue is some Pathfinder players don't realize that 3.5 rules still apply unless the text has been changed. Part of the Open License agreement and contract law.


Well first of all, magic missile couldn't target the images anyway. It only targets creatures, and the images aren't creatures.

Secondly, nothing in the mirror image spell says the images are directly targetable (unlike in 3.5 D&D, when that was specifically called out). Instead, you attack normally and there is a chance the image is hit instead.

And lastly, mirror image says anything that doesn't require an attack roll automatically hits the creature and does not destroy any figments.

So unless the wording of the spell changed between printings of Pathfinder, nothing about either spell would even allow magic missile as a possibility of removing images.

In my/my gm's defense: We did not realize the FAQ (Or the bit in the spell description). I thought it was clever...ohh well....


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People in older editions used to say things like, "I throw a handful of gravel at the mirror images, destroying them all." And the GM said yes, or no, depending on his mood.

I prefer it when the rules are clear.


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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
Using Magic Missile to pop a set of Mirror Images is such a clever idea that Paizo banned it.

Right, and what was ever the point of that? Yes, it's using a 1st level spell to counter a 2nd level spell, but it requires you to have that exact spell ready (and to have enough missiles to pop all the images). Never struck me as unbalanced; if anything, the opposite. Mirror Image is really powerful for a 2nd level spell.

Doug M.

I recently had a rules question about Mirror Image and the more I looked at the figment rules in the Magic chapter, the less sense that ruling made. Wouldn't seeing all those magic missiles dart toward a single body give evidence that the other bodies were only figments and allow a Will save to disbelieve?

Can figments be targets? The rules don't say directly. When a spell like Silent Image or Major Image creates a figment of a creature, what happens when a wizard casts a spell intending to target that apparent creature? I guess the spell fizzles dramatically, proving that the creature is not real.

Magic Missile is a common choice among low-level wizards. It does little damage, but it never misses, so it lets the wizard help against hard-to-hit creatures. And other spells, such as Scorching Ray, can also hit multiple targets.


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Matthew Downie wrote:

People in older editions used to say things like, "I throw a handful of gravel at the mirror images, destroying them all." And the GM said yes, or no, depending on his mood.

I prefer it when the rules are clear.

The Pathfinder rules can handle that clearly. The handful of gravel would be an improvised weapon with the scatter weapon quality.. That would be a -4 to hit for improvised and another -2 to hit for scatter. And the scatter weapon quality says that it is not affected by concealment from blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, so the gravel would miss the figments just as if they were not visible but deal full damage (1d1+Str bonus, I guess) on a hit to the caster.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Mathmuse wrote:


I recently had a rules question about Mirror Image and the more I looked at the figment rules in the Magic chapter, the less sense that ruling made. Wouldn't seeing all those magic missiles dart toward a single body give evidence that the other bodies were only figments and allow a Will save to disbelieve?

It's not worth the effort to try to even track that. Basically, mirror image makes a jumble of multiple images of the caster rather than a bunch of distinct images that can be easily tracked separately by a person in the middle of a fight. It's far easier to administer without trying to allow things like that.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:


I recently had a rules question about Mirror Image and the more I looked at the figment rules in the Magic chapter, the less sense that ruling made. Wouldn't seeing all those magic missiles dart toward a single body give evidence that the other bodies were only figments and allow a Will save to disbelieve?
It's not worth the effort to try to even track that. Basically, mirror image makes a jumble of multiple images of the caster rather than a bunch of distinct images that can be easily tracked separately by a person in the middle of a fight. It's far easier to administer without trying to allow things like that.

The spell does not say that it creates a jumble of images that cannot be tracked. Instead, it says, "These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly." That suggests that they retain the same relative position to the caster and each other no matter how the caster moves.

Besides, the Will save to disbelieve happens immediately, before the caster or figments would have a chance to move. If disbelieved, figments immediately become translucent.

The only reason characters cannot try to disbelieve Mirror Image is that the spell lacks the text, "Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with)." I wonder whether that is a deliberate design choice, because having all the decoy figments fade upon strong evidence, such as hitting the solid caster, would add a major weakness to the spell.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
My Life Is In Ruins wrote:

yessss... Pathfinder clarified that mirror image really requires nearly successful attack rolls to dispel an image.

Can we move on? I recognized the change in rules as time has gone by. AD&D, AD&D2, 3.0/3.5, Pathfinder. There's a change in philosophy in how the game works also. Just different. I find the biggest issue is some Pathfinder players don't realize that 3.5 rules still apply unless the text has been changed. Part of the Open License agreement and contract law.

I'm not a rules lawyer, just a regular lawyer (and not giving legal advice here - just curious) - what in "the Open License agreement and contract law" means that the 3.5 rules apply to Pathfinder unless the text has been changed?


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...So aside from the mirror image discussion...

Well, explosive runes (And all symbols and runes) must be willingly read to activate. So (One of my friends did this), A bipedal Eidelon melee specialist can hold a scroll with the runes on it.
If things get bad or its health is really low, IT reads the runes, going out in a burst of destruction. If it can grapple a big baddie, its chances of reflexing away become that much more slim.

Stone tell to speak to a mountain range to discover where things have dug out caves in it, for tracking monsters. I am not 100% sure what constitutes a stone, but any unbroken unit of rock should qualify. Ive seen it used twice, once to see if a cobblestone had been walked on recently by a large army, and the second to find this vampire cave. Creative use by the player I will admit.


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My Life Is In Ruins wrote:
Desperate Weapon makes books(spellbooks) and wands deadly weapons (who needs Weaponwand unless you have a magical weapon). So now a wand doesn't provoke AND can do 1d6P dmg as a weapon. Apply Magic Weapon if you need a bonus to a touch atk or melee atk with the wand.

Desperate Weapon creates a new object, so it cannot be applied to an existing object like a wand. Furthermore, the created object cannot be used like a real object, so a Desparate Weapon tankard cannot hold a drink.

But it would be great at creating a decoy object. You have to keep holding the fake, though, or it disappears. Send the real Maltese Falcon off with your assistant and conjure a desperate weapon that looks just like it to lure away the pursuers. Or conjure a full coin purse to pretend to be rich.


Guardianlord wrote:

...So aside from the mirror image discussion...

Well, explosive runes (And all symbols and runes) must be willingly read to activate. So (One of my friends did this), A bipedal Eidelon melee specialist can hold a scroll with the runes on it.
If things get bad or its health is really low, IT reads the runes, going out in a burst of destruction. If it can grapple a big baddie, its chances of reflexing away become that much more slim.

I think the “willingly” part is Incorrect or at least redundant. If you know the word you “read” a stop sign just by glancing at it. It’s not like you’re willing or unwilling.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Mathmuse wrote:

The spell does not say that it creates a jumble of images that cannot be tracked. Instead, it says, "These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly." That suggests that they retain the same relative position to the caster and each other no matter how the caster moves.

Since anyone targeting the caster with direct attacks, including up close melee attacks, has to roll randomly to see if they manage to hit an image or the caster, clearly they can't be individually tracked. That suggests a far more confusing display than images that retain the same relative position to the caster no matter how the caster moves.


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On the Mirror Image/Magic Missile thing, I think the way it works is like a light refraction; a copy made by Mirror Image is an exact real-time replica that mirrors whatever the caster is doing, so there's no reason why that wouldn't extend to looking like it got hit by a magic missile if the actual caster does. It just wouldn't have any effect on it other than visual. The Mirror copies aren't separate entities, they're reflections. So it looks like they're casting spells when the real caster does; it would also look like they get hit when the real caster does. (Also they all fit in the same 5 foot square, which means quite a bit of overlap between images, at least for medium-sized creatures) Try standing in a single 5-foot square in the real world with at least 3 other people, all face the same direction, and then start waving your arms around; it would be impossible to not be hitting each other, but with the illusory copies they would be passing through each other. The only way you could possibly be looking at individually discernable, separate images is if a low-level caster also rolled low on the d4 and only ended up with 1 or 2 images. And even then you're dealing with the light-retracting thing (the way sight and illusions work in the real world). It would be like trying to his something while wearing kaleidoscope goggles;even if you thought you saw which "copy" got hit (and was thus the real one), as soon as you focused on that it would still be kaleidoscoped.


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I always mention the spell Tiny Hut for defense against Incorporeal (Ex) creatures.

Incorporeal (Ex) wrote:
An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

Shadow Lodge

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1) magic missile doesn't work that way in this edition. It goes right for the wizard.

2) Pyrotechnics. its supposed to blind people, but it puts out the fire. One very good use for it is to put out the fire. You wind up with blind firefighters, but hey.

3) Aqueous orb fire extinguisher (that one comes up alot-..)#)$#$*($ pathfinders)

Aqueous orb taxi: since you have cover inside the orb , you can be moved safely around the map. Relatively.

Aqueous orb aquarium. Aqueous orb. Summon nature ally IV. Sharknado!

wall of stone NPC protection: don't wall the bad guys in. Wall them out. No save for you.

Mage armor on pets and monks. Its not just for wizards.

Purify food and drink refrigerator storage.


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Re: Magic Missile/Mirror Image discussion.
Ok guys, we are getting a bit off topic on this tangent :( any chance you could open up a new thread to discuss it further?

As for a cleverly used spell, one of my favorites is the Vomit Twin >:)
It has some fun uses and is pure (chunky) gold, pity the duration is so short :(
1: Trap detection! Do a dance in your square to entertain your buddies as your puddle of puke runs headlong into the next room, setting off any traps along the way.
2: going through scarry doors? Cast this first, have your Leftover Lunch hide in a corner then enter the next room. Dont like it? Then \O_O/ Nope. it and swap back.
3: Passing obstacles! Need to get down a cliff? Puke over the side and see if it survives! If it does not, oh well. Just try again! If it DOES survive, then swap places!
Need to pass 3 difficult climb or swim checks or risk dying? Have Mr. Pukeface go up the cliff or across the rapids to do it for you! Need to cross the Chasm of bottomless doom? Have your barbarian friend chuck your Chunks across, and keep doing so until he succeeds.
Scouting/Diversions! Cast Vomit Twin then cast Invisibility. Send your Twin in like a maniac, a round or two later, swap (while invisible) and take a look around. Then swap back and have them chase your clone around as you infultrate.
Dance Partner... Yup :( and just about as gross as it sounds... :p

Now the real fun comes when you can get access to Eternal Potion! Now you can start to do some crazy things with an unlimited number of expendable clones >:)
Favorite one is to puke into a resettable trap so much, and with such volume that you jam it up ^_^
Or leave him back home in Tinsletown for unlimited standard action "Return Home" buttons.
You also have a permenantly available bomb buddy to use your Implant Bombs on.
Heck, keep him in your lab, infused with as many bombs as you can, then go out adventurering.
Get in a bad spot, or someone just reallly pisses you off? Swap to nuke mode and let ChunkySalsa die in nuklear fashion >:)
There might be other ways to take more direct control over making ChunkySalsa die at the specific time you want him to, like contigency or something, but I'll leave it at this for now :)

Just have the epic Mr.Meeseeks song playing in the background the whole time >:)


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Dr Styx wrote:

I always mention the spell Tiny Hut for defense against Incorporeal (Ex) creatures.

Incorporeal (Ex) wrote:
An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

Ohhh. Clever.

Shadow Lodge

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Chill metal life preserver

Chill metal, ice forms around the guy. Ice floats.


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I had a low-level wizard use Color Spray on a murder of crows. In theory, it should have devastated the individual crows. However the swarm has 6 HD. I ruled that it dealt 1d6/CL nonlethal damage as an AOE ability.


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Tiny Hut specifically lets creatures pass through it, though. So I'd say an incorporeal creature can waltz through it just fine.

However, Tiny Hut also does this:

Tiny Hut wrote:
Although the force field is opaque from the outside, it is transparent from within. Missiles, weapons, and most spell effects can pass through the hut without affecting it, although the occupants cannot be seen from outside the hut (they have total concealment).

If your party has a bunch of ranged characters, that's brutal - everything outside the bubble is flat-footed to you, and see invisibility or true seeing doesn't bypass it.

Which can be amazing if you have a rogue or slayer with sniper goggles...


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Zhangar wrote:

Tiny Hut specifically lets creatures pass through it, though. So I'd say an incorporeal creature can waltz through it just fine.

However, Tiny Hut also does this:

Tiny Hut wrote:
Although the force field is opaque from the outside, it is transparent from within. Missiles, weapons, and most spell effects can pass through the hut without affecting it, although the occupants cannot be seen from outside the hut (they have total concealment).

If your party has a bunch of ranged characters, that's brutal - everything outside the bubble is flat-footed to you, and see invisibility or true seeing doesn't bypass it.

Which can be amazing if you have a rogue or slayer with sniper goggles...

Sounds like a good FAQ candidate.


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One trick might be too obvious for this thread: Heroism for downtime skill checks. My bloodrager uses it to gain +2 morale bonus on Craft skill checks whenever she forges something difficult like adamantine weapons. She has to use multiple Heroism spells per day to cover all her hours of crafting. At 12th level, she could work on her toughest project 4 hours a day with two Heroisms; at 13th level she could work all 8 hours with four Heroisms. This stacks with the +2 circumstance bonus from masterwork tools and the +5 luck bonus from Crafter's Fortune.


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I remember the Baldur's Gate era AD&D computer games where magic missile was the best answer to mirror image.

So; -Readied action Wall of Stone to block an attack or charge.
-Cheetahs Sprint; using the increased movement speed for the bonus to acrobatics, in order to make the DC 80-100 check to jump/charge someone flying 20-25 feet in the air, and then getting a grab on the charge attack, to grapple them, and then everyone falls to the ground because they can not move/fly while grappled.
-Mount as a trap detector/disarm-er.

The Exchange

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Reduce Person to boost Stealth skills (+4 size bonus and +1 for the DX bump).

The DX bump can also help with DX based skills (like Disable Device).

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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I've used floating disc as cover from elevated archer fire before.

I conceptually picture mirror image as being a bit kaleidoscopic - the images shift and overlap so you can't keep track of what's real and what's not.

Back in 1e, we used to disable stoneskin with the "throw a handful of gravel" trick, since back then it completely negated 1 attack/level. Nowadays I would argue about a bunch of gravel constituting many individual attacks, but I was young at the time.

The Exchange

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My wife often runs arcane casters, and she's fond of unusual tactics with invisibility

Picture this:
A rogue in the front of the party listening at a door hears something, so my wife slides her Sorcerer forward and says "be sure to act surprised!" and casts invisibility on the door. Says to the judge "Our light shines into the room, while we look surprised, what do we see? do we have to make a bluff check?"

I'm hoping she does this sometime to a caster who drops a fireball on us... that blows up on the invisible door. She has had a Mook charge us... into the door. Her comment was "that's gonna leave a mark!" we never did find out if she meant on the door or the mook...

Scarab Sages

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Use Detect Thoughts to get information from prisoners -

Katisha: "Who sent you to kill us?"
Mook: "You'll never make me talk!"
Kat: "Where did you first meet this masked man?"
Mook: "huh?"
Kat: "How much did he pay you? "
Mook "Hay! that's not fair!"
Kat: "and where did you put the money?"
Mook "Now wait, that MY money!"
Kat: "Where were you going to meet him after the job?"
Mook "La-la-la-la, I can't hear you!!"

Shadow Lodge

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Reduce person on a halfling or ratfolk to use dex to climb and swim.

"I can't get up the rope

bzzzzzt

"Going up the wall!

The Exchange

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Reduce person on a halfling or ratfolk to use dex to climb and swim.

"I can't get up the rope

bzzzzzt

"Going up the wall!

and don't forget the Wayangs!

everyone forgets the Gnomes...

Scarab Sages

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I have a Bard that would use True Strike, a Whip and Unseen Servant early in her live... just think about it.

"Jeeve's, get any weapons people drop within 20 feet of me and bring them to me...."...

The Exchange

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This is an old trick...

Mage Hand to double as detect magic

Player: "I use Mage Hand to pick up the items on the table..."
GM: "You can lift everything except the dagger..."
Player: "Got a magic dagger here people..."


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reduce person to make the grippli able to be thrown by telekentic projectile.

Dark Archive

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Reduce person on a halfling or ratfolk to use dex to climb and swim.

"I can't get up the rope

bzzzzzt

"Going up the wall!

I... I never thought of that possibility... This is great!

On topic, I like to use Globe of Tranquil Water to initiate spontaneous underwater combat to defend my Undine from unsavory characters. Also the 20ft radius of water serves as a launchpad for my with Aerial templated Fish Summons (Launch the flying sharks!).

All this from a spell which is supposed to function as an Abjuration barrier against Water Elementals... Who uses this spell for that, anyway?

Scarab Sages

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Going to be fighting Harpies in your future? other sonic attacks? Buy a Potion of blindness/deafness, and Drink it. As the caster (drinker) you can dismiss the spell any time you want, and in the mean time you can't hear the Harpies (or anything else for that mater...).


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Mr. Bonkers wrote:

On topic, I like to use Globe of Tranquil Water to initiate spontaneous underwater combat to defend my Undine from unsavory characters. Also the 20ft radius of water serves as a launchpad for my with Aerial templated Fish Summons (Launch the flying sharks!).

All this from a spell which is supposed to function as an Abjuration barrier against Water Elementals... Who uses this spell for that, anyway?

I've seen very compelling arguments that this spell doesn't actually create water, it only stills existing water. The two primary arguments are "It's Abjuration, not Conjuration" and "It's a more reasonable reading".

The first line would just be misleading flavor text, and mean "a bubble inside of which all water is calm" instead of "Surprise! Underwater combat!".

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