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Casting Dimension Door while grappled


Rules Questions


If I'm grappled and try to cast Dimension Door, could I be casting defensively with a DC of 15 + spell level cast, or would it be DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting?


Grapple supersedes defensive casting in the hierarchy of concentration checks. You would indeed be forced to 10+grappler CMB + spell level.


it would be which ever is higher

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Actually you would need to cast both since you are casting them for different reasons.

First I would do the check to see if you can even cast, which is the one versus the grapple. If successful then you are casting a spell and thus provoke. Keeping in mind that most creatures grappling you are unable to make attacks of opportunity.

Second you would have to cast defensively, in order to not provoke from anyone threatening you. Assuming someone else is nearby or the creature grappling you still threatens, then you would make the defensive casting check in order to not provoke.

One does not supercede the other, I suggest this route because one determines whether you can cast at all, one whether you can cast without provoking and this order makes more sense to me.

Keep in mind that combat casting applies to both checks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Taenia wrote:
Actually you would need to cast both since you are casting them for different reasons.

I am pretty sure this is incorrect.

If anything interferes with your casting a spell, you have to make a concentration check. While there are numerous things that can cause a concentration check (including casting defensively and being grappled) and each have their own DCs, I believe that concentrating on a spell is something you do once per spell.

So you would only have to roll once, and as long as your concentration check was higher than any of the DCs for the things that are interfering with you, you won't lose the spell.


Taenia is correct.

One is to cast while something is interfering.
The other is attempting to cast without provoking.

They are distinctly two separate things.


Two checks. And possibly three.

One: Because you are distracted by being grappled.
Possibly one: if due to grapple you are taking continuous damage (I am would not, but some do)

One: To avoid provoking an attack.

That said: it is exceedingly unlikely that you will get out. Wands of grease are a much better choice. Alternately, you can use the teleportation subschool power.

Liberating command can work, but you'll get a lot of table variation.
First people will wonder can you cast the spell because your grappled. Then they will wonder is their a concentrate... Then people will wonder the rules about immediate actions.

It is simpler to pop liberating command out of the wrist sheaths as a move; cast it from the wand as a standard and take the immediate action to escape.


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Casting Defensively is different from attempting to Cast while Grappled. 1 is to avoid Attacks of Opportunity; the other is to get the spell off in the first place. I'd think you'd make a separate roll for each.

Remember the person Grappling you is usually Grappled himself and so can't make Attacks of Opportunity. You probably usually don't have to Cast Defensively while Grappled.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Casting Defensively is different from attempting to Cast while Grappled. 1 is to avoid Attacks of Opportunity; the other is to get the spell off in the first place. I'd think you'd make a separate roll for each.

Remember the person Grappling you is usually Grappled himself and so can't make Attacks of Opportunity. You probably usually don't have to Cast Defensively while Grappled.

Being grappled via the grab (-20) option is probably the most common form of monster grappling option. So Scott's caveat is valid - but its is certainly common that you may well have to make the cast defensively.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Once again, concentration is something you have to do in order to cast a spell. Being grappled, casting defensively exc. all have DCs for THAT concentration check, but none of them 'cause' a concentration check, the event that 'causes' a concentration checks is trying to cast a spell.

In theory, every spell probably has a concentration check, but if nothing is distracting you the DC is 0, so no roll is required.


Perfect Tommy wrote:

Two checks. And possibly three.

One: Because you are distracted by being grappled.
Possibly one: if due to grapple you are taking continuous damage (I am would not, but some do)

One: To avoid provoking an attack.

Only two. What you count as a possible third, is actually a penalty to the previous check.

/cevah


Dave Justus wrote:
Once again, concentration is something you have to do in order to cast a spell. Being grappled, casting defensively exc. all have DCs for THAT concentration check, but none of them 'cause' a concentration check, the event that 'causes' a concentration checks is trying to cast a spell.

I don't believe this is correct. The interrupting actions are all different, and each one requires its own concentration check.

PRD wrote:
Grappling or Pinned: Casting a spell while you have the grappled or pinned condition is difficult and it requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting). Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do not have somatic components.

That's pretty clear. Casting while grappled can break your concentration.

But there is this:

PRD wrote:
Casting Defensively: If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you're casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.

An AoO can also break your concentration. So, you can succeed at casting while being grappled, but while you are doing that you might also be attacked, so you have to make a check to avoid that.

And if you fail, and are injured, you have to make a third one. Note that part that this applies if the injury is in response to your casting the spell:

PRD wrote:
Injury: If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).


Perfect Tommy wrote:
Being grappled via the grab (-20) option is probably the most common form of monster grappling option.
grab rules wrote:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

I've literally never seen anyone use the 'hold' option. -20 is a seriously harsh penalty.

I guess if the grabbing creature somehow knew it was fighting a wizard with a terrible CMD it might be effective...

Scarab Sages

Yes I've never used it. I have just let the person go at the beginning of the next turn to free up arms to attack. That way the PC has one turn wasted trying to escape. Or carry the player away. But not use one arm/claw. I don't know how they came up with -20, especially for larger creatures.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Perfect Tommy wrote:
Being grappled via the grab (-20) option is probably the most common form of monster grappling option.
grab rules wrote:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

I've literally never seen anyone use the 'hold' option. -20 is a seriously harsh penalty.

I guess if the grabbing creature somehow knew it was fighting a wizard with a terrible CMD it might be effective...

Huh. I've seen it more than a hundred times. Just shows regional variation I guess.

Dragon (wyvern, aerial servent) swoops in an grapples you and flies off.
Only way to do it is with the grab ability.

Sea monsters (octopus, squid, crocodile). Grab and drag you underwater... Who cares about damage. Can you breath water?

Massively large things... the list goes on


You can grab and drag someone underwater without taking the -20 penalty for using a 'hold'. Just maintain the grapple and use the 'Move' option.


Sure.

But a std action to take a 1/2 move if I'm remembering right is way not combat effective.

Usually these creatures are large and more or less "crit fishing" on the grab. (Ie., hoping to roll well). Eight attacks, hoping to roll well.

On the following turn you can take a move (or more), if you want to escape and eat your lunch...

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