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Why all the Paladin hate?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Until you take into account point buy and the devaluation of other stats.


If Desna's Shooting Star didn't exist (which it didn't until quite recently) would there still be this much resistance to a CG Paladin?


Ryan Freire wrote:
Until you take into account point buy and the devaluation of other stats.

I took those into account and still came to the exact same conclusion...

Athaleon wrote:
If Desna's Shooting Star didn't exist (which it didn't until quite recently) would there still be this much resistance to a CG Paladin?

I don't see how it's a factor: if a CG paladin has smite or something similar, it would STILL be worse to use Desna's Shooting Star over strength.


Athaleon wrote:
If Desna's Shooting Star didn't exist (which it didn't until quite recently) would there still be this much resistance to a CG Paladin?

For me? Yeah.

I doubt there'd be as much support for one without it though.


I don't get why smite would make the hypothetical Desnan Paladin better than the mono-charisma builds?

A Shooting Star paladin using Smite would add:
-Twice their CHA to hit
-Their CHA plus their level to damage
-Their CHA to AC (which would stack with Sidestep Secret and Scaled Fist)

Since this character does not need to invest in Dex or Str their Charisma can be sky-high, how is a longbow or longsword using Paladin better off?


You dont get the double cha, its not a bonus type but a stat addition. You lose out on the like +2-4 to hit during a smite most paladins get but in exchange you only have to pump 1 stat and con.

Edit: you still get the damage and bonus to AC,which will be higher, since there's no reason to pump any other stats, even for saves.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
If Desna's Shooting Star didn't exist (which it didn't until quite recently) would there still be this much resistance to a CG Paladin?

For me? Yeah.

I doubt there'd be as much support for one without it though.

Probably not much of a difference, considering people have been clamoring for it since well before Desna's Shooting Star was published. There was enough demand for it to get the Paladin of Freedom (as well as the [Anti]Paladins of Tyranny and Slaughter, which PF does have) back in 3.5.

If I may put on my tinfoil hat for a moment: Since the existence of Desna's Shooting Star has effectively torpedoed the possibility of a close Paladin analogue for CG, I wonder if it was made for that purpose.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Well, the only other way to get a thrower who gets the same stat to attack and damage on a thrown weapon is with a 14,000 GP item that eats your belt slot. It's not "Cha to hit with a bad weapon" it's "Cha to hit and damage" with a bad weapon. So a Cha 20 character at level 1 with Desna's Shooting Star gets +5 to hit and deals an average of 7.5 damage.

Are your campaigns die-rolled or point-buy? Starting 20s are very pricy in point-buy. You'll have a measly *3* points left over after paying a full 17 build-points for a starting 18 racially-adjusted to 20.

But let's go with the +5/+5s for comparisons:

* The 1st-level barbarian (with starting 18 Str/ 16 Dex) rages and slings for +4/+6 against a target 45' away (the Cha 20 bard is +1/+5 to hit that with his 20'-increment starknife), or just runs 40' over and smashes it with his melee weapon, e.g., standard greatsword: +7/+9 att/damage, or +6/+12 if he Power Attacked.

* The dwarf fighter with a tower shield laugh at opponents needing ridiculous numbers to break his AC. (He doesn't care if he hits at this level; he's just doing his job blockading the doorway.)

* The wizard Greases the floor in front of the dwarf (the spot the bad guys have to stand on), or Colorsprays multiple targets elsewhere.

* The cavalier has up to four attacks including his horse, and does double-damage with a lance on a charge.

* The paladin smites with a sweet threat-range.

* The other bard buffs the whole party with Inspire Courage.

* The cleric has the same idea and casts Bless. She'll take AoOs with her longspear versus enemies moving to attack her.

* The Str 12/ Dex 18 halfling TWFs in flank for 2x (+5/+1+1d6).

* The ranger shrugs and lets everyone enjoy their moment, because he knows that he will be rocking two archery attacks per round next level without prerequisites, against targets up to and over 100' away.

-- The core bard is the one class that doesn't get anything really nice, combat-wise, out of the box. Letting him catch up to parity is far from the worst thing in the world.

Quote:
Blinkback belt can be skipped with Martial Focus + Ricochet Toss.

Well that's three feats now without even getting started on the usual ranged feats, and you're still stuck lobbing starknives within the move+reach range of many opponents.


See to be honest (and you can go read the what do you play thread, my post is on the first page) I don't do Optimized characters, I play what I find fun... I also usually play Chaotic characters... I'm no munchkin by any throw of the imagination, and I honestly was advocating for the CG Paladin Liberator without even knowing about this Desnan Starknife stuff (which to be honest I still don't care about). I would just like to play a Chaotic Good Paladin for flavor reasons, because fun...


Restrictive classes make tighter worldbuilding.

Paladins as they are now are a sect. The religion books treat them like a sect. That is interesting because it opens up relationships with how rest of the world treats these different sects and how these different sects treat the world.

Player freedom to choose how to roleplay is mutually exclusive with established universes. It is like a slider, more of the other means less of the other.


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Slim Jim wrote:
Are your campaigns die-rolled or point-buy? Starting 20s are very pricy in point-buy. You'll have a measly *3* points left over after paying a full 17 build-points for a starting 18 racially-adjusted to 20.

Don't forget you can't dump DEX since you still need to qualify for those ranged and TWF feats that make Desna's Contentious Comet really powerful. You could get away with 13 DEX and a +6 Belt, but you can't really afford the latter for a long time, and that's an awful lot of your feats riding on one magic item.

Quote:
Restrictive classes make tighter worldbuilding.

True, but it's awfully selective restrictiveness for a Fantasy Kitchen Sink like Golarion. And why wouldn't the CG Paladins, whatever you want to call them, be their own sect with their own specific relationships with the rest of the world? Plenty of natural places for them to operate like:

- Cheliax (gripped in the iron rule of Hell)
- Razmiran (tyranny of a false god-king)
- Molthune (rampant militarism conscripting its citizens and threatening its neighbors)
- Taldor (Sarenite religion is outlawed and repressed)
- Rahadoum (the state enforces atheism with severe penalties for worship)
- Qadira (legal slavery)


Athaleon wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Are your campaigns die-rolled or point-buy? Starting 20s are very pricy in point-buy. You'll have a measly *3* points left over after paying a full 17 build-points for a starting 18 racially-adjusted to 20.
Don't forget you can't dump DEX since you still need to qualify for those ranged and TWF feats that make Desna's Contentious Comet really powerful. You could get away with 13 DEX and a +6 Belt, but you can't really afford the latter for a long time, and that's an awful lot of your feats riding on one magic item.

Not to mention AC that will be pretty mediocre if Dex is left on the back-burner.

All told, the melee/short-range bard thing is done a lot better as a swashbuckler dip with a bladed scarf and a swordmaster's flair. They keep their dex up and are very hard to hit. (Then again, there will be crashing conflicts for swift-action economy, so maybe not.)


Athaleon wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Are your campaigns die-rolled or point-buy? Starting 20s are very pricy in point-buy. You'll have a measly *3* points left over after paying a full 17 build-points for a starting 18 racially-adjusted to 20.

Don't forget you can't dump DEX since you still need to qualify for those ranged and TWF feats that make Desna's Contentious Comet really powerful. You could get away with 13 DEX and a +6 Belt, but you can't really afford the latter for a long time, and that's an awful lot of your feats riding on one magic item.

Quote:
Restrictive classes make tighter worldbuilding.

True, but it's awfully selective restrictiveness for a Fantasy Kitchen Sink like Golarion. And why wouldn't the CG Paladins, whatever you want to call them, be their own sect with their own specific relationships with the rest of the world? Plenty of natural places for them to operate like:

- Cheliax (gripped in the iron rule of Hell)
- Razmiran (tyranny of a false god-king)
- Molthune (rampant militarism conscripting its citizens and threatening its neighbors)
- Taldor (Sarenite religion is outlawed and repressed)
- Rahadoum (the state enforces atheism with severe penalties for worship)
- Qadira (legal slavery)

Their own specific relationship with the world and their own specific set of abilities, whch differ from those of the Paladin, yes.


Slim Jim wrote:
Not to mention AC that will be pretty mediocre if Dex is left on the back-burner.

Not at all:

Assume starting with an 18 Charisma:

Level 1 - Oracle (Lore/Nature)
Feat: Desna's Shooting Star

AC: 14 (10+4)

Level 2 - Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist)

AC: 18 (10+4+4)

Level 3-4 - Paladin
(assuming picking up a +2 Charisma Headband by 4 and +1 from Levels means Charisma 21)

AC: 20 (10+5+5)
Smite: AC 25

By level 8 - Jump to Mystery Cultist of Arshae - (Cha 22)

AC: 22 (10+6+6)
Smite: AC 28

By level 10: (When the +4 Headband comes into play) (Cha 24)

AC: 24 (10+7+7)
Smite: AC 31

Or, when Glorious Aura is Active:
AC: 28 (10+9+9)
Smite: AC 37

At level 13 Arshae's 2nd boon comes into play, so...

By level 14 (When the first +6 belt is coming online) (Cha 27)
AC: 34 (10+8+8+8)
Smite: AC 42

Or, when Glorious Aura is Active:
AC: 40 (10+10+10+10)
Smite: AC 50

continuing on to level 16 (Cha 28)
AC: 37 (10+9+9+9)
Smite: AC 46

Glorious Aura:
AC: 43 (10+11+11+11)
Smite: AC 54

And you know... This is all without wearing any armor or anything... Oh and this is the touch AC.


How did we manage to derail a paladin alignment thread into an argument over desnan bards? Isn't it usually the other way around?

Shadow Lodge

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Why all the Paladin hate?

Because they don't have classic summoners to kick around any more.

And I favor CG paladin type characters because Milani is goodiest good.


Senko wrote:

I was making a joke more than anything else but I think the basic point still stands that being impersonating a holy warrior of a god is not going to be a good long term practice. Sooner or later one of those gods is going to get annoyed and take action even if said action is waiting till you die then sending your soul to the deepest depths of the abyss.

Senko, kind of guessed you were at least, halfway joking.

Heck I even agree, that impersonating a Paladin, or even just a the member of particular faith could get you in trouble, especially if you make a career out of it.
What I'm trying to say is, that its far more likely those troubles will come from the very people or faiths your impersonating, then from any of the Gods themselves.
A final point though. You would be much safer from retribution dead, then alive when it comes to the Gods. As far as I can remember, the Gods aren't really known to snatch up souls, who by this point likely have been judged and is in their way to whatever divine realm or outer plane that awaits them.

And Senko, I'm not trying to rude and if I come across as such I'm sorry. I'm just trying to describe the lore as I see it, or give a possible explanation when the lore's silent on something.


Athaleon wrote:


True, but it's awfully selective restrictiveness for a Fantasy Kitchen Sink like Golarion. And why wouldn't the CG Paladins, whatever you want to call them, be their own sect with their own specific relationships with the rest of the world? Plenty of natural places for them to operate like:

- Cheliax (gripped in the iron rule of Hell)
- Razmiran (tyranny of a false god-king)
- Molthune (rampant militarism conscripting its citizens and threatening its neighbors)
- Taldor (Sarenite religion is outlawed and repressed)
- Rahadoum (the state enforces atheism with severe penalties for worship)
- Qadira (legal slavery)

Well I did not take a stance on "CG Paladins" in this thread yet. I would like if all 4 corners of the alignment square had their own class. And a bit better than that, because Antipaladin and even good old Paladin are not that interesting. They are super powerful, but I have never seen just so many outright immunities are good rules. Boils down to "You ignore ANOTHER narrative effect, good job, don't try anything new."

I don't like the idea of making Paladin alignment neutral, because that is just giving up and saying "OKAY THEY ALL WORK THE SAME, THE END!"

Oh and even if it is a kitchen sink, the sink itself is somewhat isolated. Each ... utensil and plate in the sink keeps to its own corners.


Senko wrote:
Impersonating a holy warrior of a god is not going to be a good long term practice. Sooner or later one of those gods is going to get annoyed and take action even if said action is waiting till you die then sending your soul to the deepest depths of the abyss.

Maybe one of the gods of trickery will protect you?

The Exchange

Another reason i don't like em cause they don't can catch Lycanthropy thx Divine Health....

Gray Paladin's are better cause i like my monsters.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Senko wrote:
Impersonating a holy warrior of a god is not going to be a good long term practice. Sooner or later one of those gods is going to get annoyed and take action even if said action is waiting till you die then sending your soul to the deepest depths of the abyss.
Maybe one of the gods of trickery will protect you?

It depends on the god of the person you impersonate too.

Kelinahat, LG, Areas of Concern Intelligence, spies, stealth: She's going to be bothered?
Ghenshau, LG, Areas of Concern Ignorance, placidity, simplicity: God of placidity is going to get annoyed?
Erecura, LN, Areas of Concern Deduction, mind reading, subtlety, Domains/subdomains: Trickery, Deception, Espionage. She grants the ability to have a cover identity of a real person so how upset can she be if someone else does that...

Shadow Lodge

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Matthew Downie wrote:
Senko wrote:
Impersonating a holy warrior of a god is not going to be a good long term practice. Sooner or later one of those gods is going to get annoyed and take action even if said action is waiting till you die then sending your soul to the deepest depths of the abyss.
Maybe one of the gods of trickery will protect you?

Yeah, because relying on a chaotic neutral deity to NOT bail out on you the second it would be funny is a good idea...

"BACK foul demons of the abyss. Back i say!" Holds up glowing holy symbol. Which flickers, sputters, and turns to ash.


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HWalsh wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Not to mention AC that will be pretty mediocre if Dex is left on the back-burner.

Not at all:

Assume starting with an 18 Charisma:

Level 1 - Oracle (Lore/Nature)
Feat: Desna's Shooting Star

AC: 14 (10+4)

Level 2 - Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist)

AC: 18 (10+4+4)

Level 3-4 - Paladin
(assuming picking up a +2 Charisma Headband by 4 and +1 from Levels means Charisma 21)

AC: 20 (10+5+5)
Smite: AC 25

By level 8 - Jump to Mystery Cultist of Arshae - (Cha 22)

AC: 22 (10+6+6)
Smite: AC 28

By level 10: (When the +4 Headband comes into play) (Cha 24)

AC: 24 (10+7+7)
Smite: AC 31

Or, when Glorious Aura is Active:
AC: 28 (10+9+9)
Smite: AC 37

At level 13 Arshae's 2nd boon comes into play, so...

By level 14 (When the first +6 belt is coming online) (Cha 27)
AC: 34 (10+8+8+8)
Smite: AC 42

Or, when Glorious Aura is Active:
AC: 40 (10+10+10+10)
Smite: AC 50

continuing on to level 16 (Cha 28)
AC: 37 (10+9+9+9)
Smite: AC 46

Glorious Aura:
AC: 43 (10+11+11+11)
Smite: AC 54

And you know... This is all without wearing any armor or anything... Oh and this is the touch AC.

You're double/triple-dipping Charisma, with a FAQ that says it doesn't apply multiple times. So those numbers are wrong.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Yeah, because relying on a chaotic neutral deity to NOT bail out on you the second it would be funny is a good idea...

For divine casters, chaotic and evil deities seem just as reliable patrons as the lawful good ones. (This does not necessarily apply after your death.)


The alignment system supersedes the gods.

We know this, because even the gods have alignments.


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Regarding the "all gods should be able to endow mortal champions" line of thinking, is this something we could do, instead, with Prestige classes?

I mean, even though Desna does not appear to sponsor Paladins, she's got Sphere Singers,Cayden has brewkeepers, Kurgess has Darechasers, etc. Each of these is probably more thematically appropriate for the champion of the god in question than a reskinned Paladin, TBH.

I mean, sure you can't be one of Pulura's chosen Stargazers until 6th level, but I don't know if Torag intends for great things for his Paladins while they're low level anyway (he is a great strategist, after all, so he doesn't want them where they're just going to get killed.)


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


You're double/triple-dipping Charisma, with a FAQ that says it doesn't apply multiple times. So those numbers are wrong.

Nope. Not wrong at all. 3 different kinds of bonuses.

1 is a substitution
1 is a deflection bonus
1 is a sacred bonus

You can't have two of the same kind of bonus.


The double-dipping FAQ was:

Quote:

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?

No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

I think HWalsh is correct here.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Regarding the "all gods should be able to endow mortal champions" line of thinking, is this something we could do, instead with Prestige classes?

Not really unless paladin also moves to a Prestige class. The idea is something you can start from 1st to 20th. When my games normally end around 12th, it's not too fun to have to play most of that time as 'not a holy champion'. There isn't much parity if some classes get to be those 'holy champions' 5-8 levels latter than others.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Regarding the "all gods should be able to endow mortal champions" line of thinking, is this something we could do, instead with Prestige classes?

Sure! interesting option...

Or...

We could take the Paladin base class out back, behind the woodshed, and put it down.
Gut it, skin it and properly prepare the carcass, so we could make a Paladin prestige class out of it.

Possible ideas:
- No spellcasting + spell list. -> gain +1 lvl of divine spellcasting class at lvls 3,5,7,9...
- A feature much like the Dawnflower Anchorite Credence: Focused Class Feature , maybe 2 or 3 features in total...
- Some kind of reworking of the classical Abilities that grants Cha to saves, attacks and so on. Mostly to limit serial-dipping...Maybe capping bonuses to your lvl in the prestige class...

...

*Peers into the distance, spots the angry mob approaching!*

...

Sorry got to go!

*Flees under the barrage of insults, bottles, die and miscellaneous objects being hurled at him*


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If we got a "tyrant" equivalent archetype for the paladin that didn't lose Divine Grace, I think a lot more people would stop complaining.

Divine Grace alone is worth the LG restriction, because it's that good. I know this because this thread exists. Also because Divine Protection got hit with the nerfbat so hard that it went from being the best feat ever printed to arguably the second worst next to Prone Shooter.


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master_marshmallow wrote:

If we got a "tyrant" equivalent archetype for the paladin that didn't lose Divine Grace, I think a lot more people would stop complaining.

Divine Grace alone is worth the LG restriction, because it's that good. I know this because this thread exists. Also because Divine Protection got hit with the nerfbat so hard that it went from being the best feat ever printed to arguably the second worst next to Prone Shooter.

All they had to do was change the requirement to "5th-level Paladin" and it would have been a good patch for many seldom-used archetypes.


master_marshmallow wrote:

The alignment system supersedes the gods.

We know this, because even the gods have alignments.

Actually, so do the Domains. Heck, we have had gods murdered to gain access to Domains. Since no god actually can claim exclusive access to a domain, the Domains supersede the gods as well. Actually, since the domains also contain the Allignments, then, reasonably, Allignments are merely a subset of domains, that don't mind allowing their adherents to meet lower standards for, well, aligning with them.

EDIT ADD
For those settings that allow Paladins that aren't tied to specific gods, could it be that those "godless ones" are aligned directly to the Domains of Law and Good, not going through a godly conduit?


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Regarding the "all gods should be able to endow mortal champions" line of thinking, is this something we could do, instead, with Prestige classes?

I mean, even though Desna does not appear to sponsor Paladins, she's got Sphere Singers,Cayden has brewkeepers, Kurgess has Darechasers, etc. Each of these is probably more thematically appropriate for the champion of the god in question than a reskinned Paladin, TBH.

I mean, sure you can't be one of Pulura's chosen Stargazers until 6th level, but I don't know if Torag intends for great things for his Paladins while they're low level anyway (he is a great strategist, after all, so he doesn't want them where they're just going to get killed.)

Agree, while all gods should be able to have mortal champions, it is a failure of vision to believe that all gods champions would share the same powerset.


Daw wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

The alignment system supersedes the gods.

We know this, because even the gods have alignments.

Actually, so do the Domains. Heck, we have had gods murdered to gain access to Domains. Since no god actually can claim exclusive access to a domain, the Domains supersede the gods as well. Actually, since the domains also contain the Allignments, then, reasonably, Allignments are merely a subset of domains, that don't mind allowing their adherents to meet lower standards for, well, aligning with them.

EDIT ADD
For those settings that allow Paladins that aren't tied to specific gods, could it be that those "godless ones" are aligned directly to the Domains of Law and Good, not going through a godly conduit?

Now you're asking the right questions.


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HWalsh wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


You're double/triple-dipping Charisma, with a FAQ that says it doesn't apply multiple times. So those numbers are wrong.

Nope. Not wrong at all. 3 different kinds of bonuses.

1 is a substitution
1 is a deflection bonus
1 is a sacred bonus

You can't have two of the same kind of bonus.

You stacked Scaled Fist AC Bonus, which is Charisma, with the Sidestep Secret/Prophetic Armor revelation, which is also Charisma. Those won't stack.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Athaleon wrote:
If Desna's Shooting Star didn't exist (which it didn't until quite recently) would there still be this much resistance to a CG Paladin?

Oh yes. There was this resistance before Pathfinder was even a thing.

Ryan Freire wrote:
I doubt there'd be as much support for one without it though.

Sure there would. I played a Paladin of Freedom in 3.5.

Edit: This discussion was far more civil.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Well, the only other way to get a thrower who gets the same stat to attack and damage on a thrown weapon is with a 14,000 GP item that eats your belt slot.

...

There is also Starry Grace for Dex Mod to both attacks and damage when thrown.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Regarding the "all gods should be able to endow mortal champions" line of thinking, is this something we could do, instead, with Prestige classes?

I mean, even though Desna does not appear to sponsor Paladins, she's got Sphere Singers,Cayden has brewkeepers, Kurgess has Darechasers, etc. Each of these is probably more thematically appropriate for the champion of the god in question than a reskinned Paladin, TBH.

I mean, sure you can't be one of Pulura's chosen Stargazers until 6th level, but I don't know if Torag intends for great things for his Paladins while they're low level anyway (he is a great strategist, after all, so he doesn't want them where they're just going to get killed.)

I like this, really. Splatbooks for every god and personal champions, full of fluff and crunch. A menu that can satisfy the taste of almost anyone if well done.


William Werminster wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Regarding the "all gods should be able to endow mortal champions" line of thinking, is this something we could do, instead, with Prestige classes?

I mean, even though Desna does not appear to sponsor Paladins, she's got Sphere Singers,Cayden has brewkeepers, Kurgess has Darechasers, etc. Each of these is probably more thematically appropriate for the champion of the god in question than a reskinned Paladin, TBH.

I mean, sure you can't be one of Pulura's chosen Stargazers until 6th level, but I don't know if Torag intends for great things for his Paladins while they're low level anyway (he is a great strategist, after all, so he doesn't want them where they're just going to get killed.)

I like this, really. Splatbooks for every god and personal champions, full of fluff and crunch. A menu that can satisfy the taste of almost anyone if well done.

I would have no problem with this, but people want the base Paladin powers or bust. That's why Grey Paladin is hated by so many.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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We’ll try again tomorrow .

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