How to roleplay giving players resources for ship upgrades?


Advice


The game assumes that the ship the players have will get upgraded over time and will gradually improve. But how do you roleplay the characters getting access to ship upgrades?

If it were a real shipyard, this would obviously take a lot of cash and probably way more than the players have for personal equipment.

"The mayor of Alienville gives you each a reward of 1000 credits and gives the group another 100,000 credits to go towards your starship." (which counts as 20 BP)

That doesn't really work for me, because there's nothing to stop the players from saying "let's take 10,000 of the credits for the ship and buy personal items with it."

"You open the vault and inside you find 10 BP."

That doesn't work for me either. For pretty obvious reasons.

So what methods do you use as a GM to justify the characters getting access to more BP? I have a number of ideas but I am looking for suggestions.


"The mayor of Alienville grants you access to their shipyards and will defray the cost of upgrading your ship"

"You open the vault and find a cache of blueprints/electronics/ship weapon grade heatsinks that you can use to upgrade your ship"


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm going to be using the BP tiers not as big bumps but in the same way I would use WBL. They won't just ding and get a load of BP, but some encounters will have things with an essential BP value.

"Alright you've blown up all the enemy fighters. There are a few bits of their frames that are salvageable. Someone make me an engineering roll to see how much you can re purpose" *Player rolls a dice, I pretend to look at my notes* "Alright that was a low roll, you end up damaging some parts as you try to extract them, still you manage to get some salvage. Next downtime you can put that to use, it'll be worth 6BP"


Posted this in several threads on converting Build Points to Credits.

Every ship is owned by somebody, a bank, investor, corporation, and they do not like it when somebody tries to steal/ loot their ship. Even pirate ships have owners as either it was stolen or they have a wealthy backer.

When you defeat an enemy ship and have the opportunity to salvage it's advisable to follow procedure. Either tow it back to a ship yard or notify a salvage operation to do it for you. They will handle title search, apply for the recovery fee in your name and handle any legal matters. Unfortunately this can take some time. Finding a new buyer for the hull or components may take months. A salvage at first level may not return any BP until fourth. A wreck at second level may provide a steady stream of BP for multiple levels. Even encounters that do not leave a wreck could give BP. Driving off the pirate saved the insurance company millions of credits. Sensor logs identify the enemy ship as one belonging to a major corporation and allowed them to recover the ship mostly intact. In return they have authorized BP for party use.

Sure the party may insist on salvaging that heavy laser cannon themselves. may even be a good adventure hook. First they have to find a ship yard to install it. Then they show up at another yard for upgrades and are refused. Turns out that cannon had a serial number registered to a ship owned by the bank that frequently deals with the ship yard. Maybe some nice gentlemen come for a friendly visit and inquire about where you got that laser cannon.


Lane S.:

This assumes that salvage law is very different than what is common legal practice here on Earth. On Earth we have the legal principle of the Right of Salvage. The Right of Salvage exists to provide an incentive for people to look for lost ships.

The Right of Salvage gives a discoverer the right to take possession of a wreck if he is the first one to find it and all the original crew and passengers are dead (as long as it wasn't you that killed them - that would be piracy). The previous owners have no say in the matter.

Normally if a modern ship is lost the original owners will be the first to know and will send search teams; they will discover the wreck first anyway. Alternately they might purchase the claim from the discoverer, which saves the discoverer from having to perform a salvage operation himself.

Salvage claims normally have to be filed with an authority of some kind; which authority depends on where the wreck is. Once the claim has been filed the ship is yours and anyone else trying to salvage it is committing a crime.

In the Starfinder universe, there are lots of undiscovered places, and a lot more territory in which ships could be lost. Which means the Right of Salvage would typically become stronger, not weaker.


The best method I can come up with without over-complicating things:

Most of the BPU are handed out from destroyed starships.

Between Level 1 and 2 there are 20 BPU to hand out.

Lets say there are 3 starship encounters that level for simplicity's sake (pulling that number out of nowhere):


  • Allocate 10 BPU to the hardest fight
  • Allocate 5 BPU to the two easier fights
  • Allocate 5 BPU to "Player cleverness" to incentivise your players to work for an additional amount of resources via salvaging enemy ships, piecing apart abandoned factories or whatever other justification you can come up with.

This way they feel encoraged to work for more loot, without the feeling that WBL will be identical no matter how lazy they are.

It also leaves you room to salvage an unexpected capture of a fully intact ship you had assumed would be destroyed instead of captured.

I'd stray away from trying to convert BPU to credits under the idea that it would only sell for 10% of value, and you'd quickly run out of money attempting to buy them. Simply tell people that if they want to do more starship stuff, they've got to seek out more starship fights: and then use up your extra 25% of the BPU/level there.


Malk_Content wrote:

I'm going to be using the BP tiers not as big bumps but in the same way I would use WBL. They won't just ding and get a load of BP, but some encounters will have things with an essential BP value.

"Alright you've blown up all the enemy fighters. There are a few bits of their frames that are salvageable. Someone make me an engineering roll to see how much you can re purpose" *Player rolls a dice, I pretend to look at my notes* "Alright that was a low roll, you end up damaging some parts as you try to extract them, still you manage to get some salvage. Next downtime you can put that to use, it'll be worth 6BP"

This is what we’ve been doing and it’s been working fine for us. We’ve also had BPs as rewards given by patrons.

The fact Starfinder has two WBL tracks complicates things but really it just requires that players buy in to it. Finding loot of two different “flavours” is no more difficult to reconcile than owning a ship separately from the PCs’ WBL.


Peet wrote:

This assumes that salvage law is very different than what is common legal practice here on Earth.

Note that my version allows salvage by conquest, although randomly attacking ships will still get you into legal trouble.

I do not know about salvaged ships but I do know governments frequently claim part of the cargo recovered from wrecks. I know in some cases insurance companies have made legal claims to cargo as well.

My point was that salvaging a ship will not always give an immediate payout nor can you expect full BP value.

Even if you do find a derelict ship that has been floating in the drift for 300 years you never know it's status. Maybe a crew member was an elf and got away expecting to return. There may be 17 other claims by people that have found it over the centuries.


Lane_S wrote:
I do not know about salvaged ships but I do know governments frequently claim part of the cargo recovered from wrecks. I know in some cases insurance companies have made legal claims to cargo as well.

Cases where ships are lost at sea with all hands are very rare nowadays.

If the salvaged ship is recoverable, typically the original owner has the opportunity to redeem a salvaged ship from someone that has salvaged it if that is a third party. This reward is typically assigned by the courts. However, if they are unwilling to pay then the salvages has a lien on the entire wreck and may do with it as they will. Often wrecks are not worth the cost of salvaging them. Even if the ship is not abandoned someone coming to the aid of a distressed ship has the right to file a salvage claim for a part of the value of the vessel.

If a ship has sunk to the ocean floor or is otherwise considered unrecoverable, it is considered a derelict and the original owner has no claim on it unless they salvage it themselves. As a part of making a salvage claim, the Salvor must demonstrate that the vessel is derelict. A derelict vessel probably isn't useful but you might be able to harvest parts or material from it.

Cargo is a bit different, since the ship's loss can be intentional (in the sense that it has been abandoned by the original owners) but the cargo may be abandoned by necessity. Title to cargo is therefore harder to take in a salvage claim. Cargo that has been deliberately thrown overboard, or sunk to the bottom but marked with a buoy, are always still considered property of the original owners. Insurers or Creditors may have liens they can enforce on such cargo. Cargo that has sunk to the bottom without markers is usually considered abandoned and may be salvaged.

-----------------

The thing to remember here though as this applies to Starfinder is that we live in a world where there are no uncharted waters. The ocean is finite and fully charted. If a ship sinks today we will have a pretty good idea of where it is.

In a universe where ships operate in space, and the vast distances involved mean that ships will often be lost in circumstances where no one knows where the ship was when it was lost.

That kind of environment will likely produce a lot of ships that are "lost without a trace." Salvage rights will be more liberal in this kind of environment because ownership is harder to enforce.

A good adventure hook though might be an insurer hiring the party to find a lost vessel. But the insurer is mainly interested in the cargo and lets the party keep the wreck as a part of their payment.


I'm giving my players a magic infused hybrid ship that is bonded to them. It properties change in accordance with the 'power' of its owners. Therefore, more build points with a level up.

I figured magic was the easiest way to overcome the role playing aspect of it. Could do the same thing as the ship is a vessel given to them by a deity and grows in power as they bring about glory to said deity.


I think for salvage it would be better to treat like a car than a ship.

If my car breaks down on the highway i can leave it by the side of the road and it is still mine. depending on local laws it may be towed before I can return and would have to pay fees to get it back but is still mine.

If I die before I can return for the car it is still mine and ownership transferred according to my will.

If it is left long enough someone else can attempt to claim title to it as an abandoned vehicle. There may be fees associated with this, wait times, taxes, etc. This is what i was representing with my suggestion.

If I abandon a vehicle that has a remaining balance on the loan it belongs to the bank even if someone tries to claim it as abandoned.

If my car is stolen and I report it as such and is later abandoned it is still mine, although I may have to pay a fee to get it back. Same applies if the bank still owns it.

I somebody abandons a car on my property I still have to file a claim on it. I then have to wait until the process is completed before selling it or remove parts. If it turns out the bank owns it or there is another claim on it I may still be able to charge a storage fee/

The goal here is to allow characters to benefit from recovering another ship, either found or taken in combat, while limiting what they can do with it. It explains both where BP are coming from and why they are not immediately available.

I'm a player, I know how badly I would abuse a GM that allowed us to strip a wreck and sell or use what we found.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm the GM, so I can only speak from my side of the screen, but we've not run into any difficulties with BP system so far. Our campaign is a homebrew, where the PCs are bounty hunters working for the Syndicsguild. When a bump in BP comes, it usually goes like so: the PCs' advocate informs them that resources have been allocated to them to upgrade their ship in preparation for an upcoming assignment that has been forecasted to be a challenge, or, for rescuing such-and-such the XYZ Company has donated X amount of BPs as a token of their appreciation, or, so-and-so is offering payment in the form of BPs for the apprehension of evil-bad-guy, etc. It is my opinion that it takes a bit of cooperation between the GM and players to make it feel organic, like the rest of the game, I suppose.


I have been thinking about it a lot myself but havent had a chance to try this in a game, someone check my internal logic for me?

"Any modern ship is going to come with a hardwired holistic AI that constantly analyzes everything connected to the ship as well as external events that impact the ship, everything from the effects of rapid acceleration through atmosphere to wavelengths of missile seekers employed against it. based on these observations the AI comes up with suggested modifications to the ship to allow more optimal operations by its crew. Once the captain OKs an improvement plan the AI uses micro drones and manipulator arms to gather usable materials as the ship goes about its normal business and incrementally builds out the new components ontop of the existing structure. The crew can wake up one morning and find that a new weapon mount has come online or that a bulkhead was removed and a new space is now available in the ship."

I may have it be that large pieces of equipment are constructed in a pocket dimension whose aperture is mobile without the vicinity of the ship so that large scale changes, such that a new engine can be prefab'd and rapidly installed without having this huge mass hanging off the ship or a ship perpetually looking halfway scavenged.

Basically the handwavium needs to account for:

- The ship does not siphon any resources away from the party directly

- There is a way to account for large scale changes to the ship that doesnt involve years spent in a port facility at a limited number of berths in some shipyard outside the control of the PCs.

- The PCs shouldnt be able to abuse the handwavium to achieve greater WBL or otherwise cheat the equipment charts.

Although i do actually like the idea of the ship being "drydocked" (Air docked for a space ship?) and letting that be a hook for further games... but a general system to account for leveling up mid-adventure, especially when the adventure expects that the PCs will have a stronger ship for the next space battle.


Torbyne wrote:
Although i do actually like the idea of the ship being "drydocked" (Air docked for a space ship?) and letting that be a hook for further games... but a general system to account for leveling up mid-adventure, especially when the adventure expects that the PCs will have a stronger ship for the next space battle.

1. Never assume that PCs are "expected" to have anything. If they can't win with a level 5 ship, a level 6 ship isn't going to change things much.

2. If the players are on a planet and are level 5, then turn 6, then have to fly back to Absolom Station, they're stuck with their level 5 ship until they upgrade it. It isn't a video game.

3. When characters have time just come up with a reason they can upgrade. We have a Yoski Mechanic for example named Pip, she's our ship's Engineer. She collects "salvage parts" as the game goes on. So when we take a break she upgrades our ship.

We make the excuse of scavenging space battle wreckage for parts. This also helps us hit WBL by the GM hand waving, "You're able to sell some of your salvage for X credits."

Works fine.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You guys are making way more out of it than it needs to be. Coming up with contrived reasons to ignore problems that don't exist just by using a tiny amount of narrative. BP is no more arbitrary than anything else in the game, because everything that players get given to them comes from the DM. You don't have to use ultra magic, dimensional science or anything equally ridiculous.

Non-ridiculous ways off the top of my head with very little thought.

Salvaging parts that you hobble together to improve your ship. So long as you have anyone with the engineering skill your players won't bat an eye. This means the ship only gets upgraded in downtime, not a big deal.

Your Patron allocates more of their collosall amount of funds towards improving the ship you use. They don't mind doing this because in the end the ship legally belongs to them.

The junk dealer doesn't have much in the way off credits, but will let you pick some parts and fit them for you in exchange for the wreckage you've brought in.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The ship's engineer gives the control panel a good thwack in the right place. Immediately, a whole bunch of components that were there all along start working properly.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I could also see the PCs losing a space combat and having their ship robbed of parts by the victors who might, for example, remove their Drift Drive and reduce their ship's BP total by a like amount. They could then hobble back to a shipyard and cannibalize other parts to pay for a new Drift Drive.

Just a thought for ways to have defeat in space combat not result in a TPK.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HWalsh wrote:

2. If the players are on a planet and are level 5, then turn 6, then have to fly back to Absolom Station, they're stuck with their level 5 ship until they upgrade it. It isn't a video game.

This seems unnecessarily restrictive to me, for no better reason than that it seems to offend your sensibilities.

This is a ROLEplaying game, taking place in the imaginations of you and your players. Adapting the narrative to make more sense within the context of literally any situation is insanely easy! There are literally no limitations!

Just say they found a rare, purified gem while on the planet that they can plug into the ship's core to get more power out of it. Or they found a crashed ship with parts they could use. Or the locals helped in some way. Or the PCs brought upgrade supplies with them tot he planet, but only just now got them up and running.

I can think of a thousand possible covers that allow the players to immediately have what they want, and what the rules say they should have, with little to no fuss whatsoever.

So I ask you all this: Why then should anyone ever restrict their players as you suggest? That seems to me like it can only risk hurting the fun with no real gain or upside. Why risk it?


Ravingdork wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

2. If the players are on a planet and are level 5, then turn 6, then have to fly back to Absolom Station, they're stuck with their level 5 ship until they upgrade it. It isn't a video game.

This seems unnecessarily restrictive to me, for no better reason than that it seems to offend your sensibilities.

This is a ROLEplaying game, taking place in the imaginations of you and your players. Adapting the narrative to make more sense within the context of literally any situation is insanely easy! There are literally no limitations!

Just say they found a rare, purified gem while on the planet that they can plug into the ship's core to get more power out of it. Or they found a crashed ship with parts they could use. Or the locals helped in some way. Or the PCs brought upgrade supplies with them tot he planet, but only just now got them up and running.

I can think of a thousand possible covers that allow the players to immediately have what they want, and what the rules say they should have, with little to no fuss whatsoever.

So I ask you all this: Why then should anyone ever restrict their players as you suggest? That seems to me like it can only risk hurting the fun with no real gain or upside. Why risk it?

The game never says they *should* have this instantly. Do you grant your players full WBL the second they level? If they're in the middle of a dungeon do you let them upgrade their gear from the magic Mart even if they can't visit a shop?

The answer (I hope) is no.

There has to be some degree of realism. Some sense of accomplishment. Nothing should ever be instant gratification.

Letting instant magic upgrades doesn't fit anything even resembling a narrative structure.

Some of these things are rewards for foresight.

Example:
If the players are in a dungeon and level up after resting, and one has a few hours to spend making a new sword, and they took enough UBP with them, should you let them? Of course! That's a reward for thinking ahead and being prepared.

If another party member didn't, should they be able to upgrade? No. They didn't take the time to plan ahead.

This is not a video game. Role-playing Games have always rewarded forethought, effort, and consideration. Problem solving and struggle are parts of it. A reward that is given isn't as valued as one that is earned.

It's not unreasonable for a party to need to wait to upgrade a ship until they are at a place and location where such an upgrade can be applied.


Then again people are perfectly okay with killing a bunch of space goblins and instantly becoming proficient with heavy weapons and fluently speaking 3 new languages (level up feat and sink 3 points in linguistics).

Ships are just another form of level up. I'll go on a limb and say that no one plays it so Soldier Steve needs to report back to his barracks to learn his new gear boost post level up and I doubt Mechanic Mitch needs to sit around the workbench and order new parts to make his exocortex track more people.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Then again people are perfectly okay with killing a bunch of space goblins and instantly becoming proficient with heavy weapons and fluently speaking 3 new languages (level up feat and sink 3 points in linguistics).

Ships are just another form of level up. I'll go on a limb and say that no one plays it so Soldier Steve needs to report back to his barracks to learn his new gear boost post level up and I doubt Mechanic Mitch needs to sit around the workbench and order new parts to make his exocortex track more people.

That depends on the group.

My players, for example, don't get their experience awarded until the adventure concludes and they rest. It is assumed, during their individual downtime that they are working on those skills, that they are building those implants. Typically they don't level up until they are back on the station.

That's typically how it goes.


Ravingdork wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

2. If the players are on a planet and are level 5, then turn 6, then have to fly back to Absolom Station, they're stuck with their level 5 ship until they upgrade it. It isn't a video game.

This seems unnecessarily restrictive to me, for no better reason than that it seems to offend your sensibilities.

This is a ROLEplaying game, taking place in the imaginations of you and your players. Adapting the narrative to make more sense within the context of literally any situation is insanely easy! There are literally no limitations!

Just say they found a rare, purified gem while on the planet that they can plug into the ship's core to get more power out of it. Or they found a crashed ship with parts they could use. Or the locals helped in some way. Or the PCs brought upgrade supplies with them tot he planet, but only just now got them up and running.

I can think of a thousand possible covers that allow the players to immediately have what they want, and what the rules say they should have, with little to no fuss whatsoever.

So I ask you all this: Why then should anyone ever restrict their players as you suggest? That seems to me like it can only risk hurting the fun with no real gain or upside. Why risk it?

My players enjoy the feeling of genuine choice.

"We can press on with a lower tier ship or we can lose time but have the benefit of an upgraded ship" is a situation they'd enjoy agonising over.

I think the key is to not make it a spurious barrier but rather a win-something/lose-something situation. I wouldn't see any benefit in making them fly back to Absalom station and then return if they didn't gain anything (or those few weeks would take less than a minute of table-time).

In my group it's likely to be the players who insist you can't upgrade a spaceship out in the middle of deep space anyhow.


Steve Geddes wrote:


My players enjoy the feeling of genuine choice.

"We can press on with a lower tier ship or we can lose time but have the benefit of an upgraded ship" is a situation they'd enjoy agonising over.

I think the key is to not make it a spurious barrier but rather a win-something/lose-something situation. I wouldn't see any benefit in making them fly back to Absalom station and then return if they didn't gain anything (or those few weeks would take less than a minute of table-time).

In my group it's likely to be the players who insist you can't upgrade a spaceship out in the middle of deep space anyhow.

Sounds like you have some good players who are worth game mastering for.


i had there first up grade come from a mistereas debt owed to our android player who has lost her memory. at level 2 i will have the quest giver offer to upgreat the ship as part of payment for a task.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would note that, if the players haven't gotten the BP to spend, than this also means their *Ship Tier* does not go up yet, either. IOW, they don't suddenly get tougher encounters or harder checks or less XP, not until their ship actually is upgraded.


Matthew Downie wrote:
The ship's engineer gives the control panel a good thwack in the right place. Immediately, a whole bunch of components that were there all along start working properly.

I swear, it was the damndest thing. I basically threw a bunch of spare parts at it and it turned into a heavy persistent particle beam weapon!

Community / Forums / Starfinder / Advice / How to roleplay giving players resources for ship upgrades? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.