Zen archer still the best?


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It's been a long time since I thought up an archer build... and there are a LOT of ways to do it. Fighter, Fighter-archer, Ranger, Ranger-Divine Marksman... Stalker could be fun...

What is it that people loved about Zen archer so much? Switching from Dex to hit to Wis to hit doesn't seem that important me to me... It's an AC bonus either way, good saves, but lower BAB. Flurry is okay, but only when you don't move, Skills?? more than fighter less than ranger.. One more bonus feat by 10th level than Ranger...

Zen is a little less MAD than standard Monk... but you still need the strength to damage... (now if it was use Dex to hit and Wis to damage... I'd be a lot more excited about it ;) ) It's OKAY... but the lack of any armor at all while also implying I should disregard my dex doesn't excite me much...

There's also been a BUNCH of new books out there since Zen showed up... is there a new grand champion in the archer category that I'm not thinking of?


Zen archer class abilities capture most of what is needed in a good archer so you can spend feats on customizing the character. That is what I like about the Zen archer.


its also a pretty nice dip for a fighter archer no need for dex to hit your most important stat pumps up your poor save and you get a lot more feats and fighter options


Sure. Zen archer wasn't ever the best. The Molthuni Arsenal warpriest takes top prize, and ravener hunter inquisitor the silver for DPR, but even without the archetypes those classes beat the zen archer. I'm not sure who'd be 3rd - against the right enemies maybe a paladin, more generally perhaps an unarchetyped fighter.


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Zen archer was never the best archer, but it's still a good archer, especially for low levels.

The best archers are Warpriest, Inquisitor, and Fighter.

My personal favorite is an Inquisitor with the Chivalry Inquisition, so you can have a full progression mount for mounted archery. Mounted archery is probably the most powerful martial combat style available.


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The Zen Archer has amazing defense. Great saves, CMD and the ability to fight in the front lines at third level with point-blank master is what sets him apart from other archer builds.

Dark Archive

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I completely second the defense issue in favor of the Zen archer. Trying to game plan against them at high level play to build in meaningful challenges is near impossible. The DPR is so high anyway that surviving to round 2 if needed is way more valuable then a burst to get a slightly higher DPR upfront. The ridiculous CMD completely negates a bunch of possible neutralizing strategies.


Interesting... where is the defense coming from? First glance has me dropping the Dex to boost Wis so that's kind of a wash, and still not having any Armor.

Am I just reading something wrong here and the AC turns out good anyway?


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Claxon wrote:

The best archers are Warpriest, Inquisitor, and Fighter.

If you're in an environment where the "Trappings of the Warrior" panoply is allowed, the Haunt Collector Occultist built properly is up there too. You have worse action economy on your bane than the Inquisitor, but you have more of it, better effective BAB, and a better spell list.


one build i really want to try out is a half giant zenarcher 3 fighter x that uses a large orc horn bow for 3d6 dmg


Saving Throws for one, although Inquisitors are very competitive there.
Point Blank as mentioned removes vulnerability.
AC isn't really any better than normal Monk, although it is Touch AC.
(maybe it's more viable to build for better AC with DEX+WIS but then your STR lags for damage)
As ranged character AC in general should be less important regardless.
As mentioned a major factor is having your Feats being almost open.
Basically you're dialled in from level 1 and can do whatever you want.
I think Stunning Fist is interesting for them, they get extra usages for being a Monk despite needing to 'buy' the feat since Zen replaces it.
They also keep a bunch of interesting Su abilities, which can still be swapped for Qigong abilities.
(and some of them like Abundant Step qualify for Feats that build upon them like Dimensional chain)

The thing about Zen Archer is "WIS to-hit" is mentioned 1000x as often as the implications of that for stat investment and low-level play. To gain the maximal net advantage from it you need to not invest in DEX and somehow slog thru the low levels either A) using crap attack bonus for Archery or B) OK attack bonus with STR for "nothing special" melee attacks or C) taking melee feats to use with OK STR attack bonus but lagging behind on archery feats for awhile. So in fact, ignoring the WIS to-hit feature and building around DEX/STR is reasonable approach to it (that will have better Init too).

I have used it as a 1 level dip going into Inquisitor, in fact missing out on potential damage vs full Inquisitor build that buys Rapid+Multi but I save so many Feats along the way, Stack Saves, as well as getting marginal BAB benefit + Perfect Strike, that it worked well for me since it would take close to half my Feats to replicate what I got out of that 1 level dip (and the dip gives it all up-front).

And it's also fair to add that alot of the "stronger archer builds" people mention weren't even around when Zen Archer was printed. Although I believe even then it wasn't necessarily the king of archery or anything. But it's still pretty damn good, and a solid all-around class that you can have fun with. I would guess that the flurry also makes them very steady in terms of DPR since they don't have any 'super arrows' and don't need any time to 'buff up' and don't have limited uses/day buffs to worry about.


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Erastil's Blessing allows any class to use Wis to hit with bows. It only requires weapon focus and worshiping Erastil's to take, so fighters, warpriests, humans, ect can take it at 1st.


Zen archer was never the best monk archetype for archery, much less "the best"


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Zen archer is solid. Each archer build has pros and cons. Pally archers get Smite so DR is a free pass x/day (usu boss fight). Ranger needs instant enemy but is good till then and has some out of combat utility and is ok at being a switch.

Got ninja'd on something I found out recently...half-orc and orc hornbow. Free gravity bow all day long. That is range increment is 80 but damage is upsized by 1. So medium bow is 2d6. Add a dash of Sacred Tattoo and Fates's Favored and you have a nice foundation for your archer...though losing a feat (vs. human) does hurt a bit.


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Rerednaw: Erastil and 1/2 orc work well together. longbow stuff works with the hornbow so you can take a warpriest and get weapon focus(longbow)/Erastil's Blessing at first along with Deadeye Bowman to ignore 1 soft cover. At third, you pick up point blank and precise to round out the basics well enough. At 5th your weapon training kicks in [assuming you took Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain].

If you REALLY want to go all out on a 1/2 orc, get Dragon Sight [darkvision 120']. Best trade for Intimidating ever.


Barbarian. The answer is always Barbarian. Well, with a 4 lvl dip in weapon master fighter is better :D

Grand Lodge

Zen Archer only is great at dealing damage and is resistant. It's something I could myself play, but there are a couple not small weaknesses.

The initiative is poor, when the PC could be interested in acting fast. Going solo would need at some point taking Improved Initiative, unless the player is happy acting slowly as this is optional. The worst is to be unable to do anything else than hurting opponents. Trying to socialize would make back it to MAD status because of the charisma requisites and it is contrary to the big advantage it is of being able to nearly focus on wisdom (with a little dexterity and constitution for good measure).

Not the biggest damage dealer but easy to build and requests few resources, and that's what is important.

As for myself, I might go Zen Archer/Inquisitor multiclassing. Not the most optimum possible but at least being able to do a bit of everything, social and knowledges included.


Arsenal Chaplain warpriest is the best, though I have been tinkering with a Halfling Arrowsong Minstrel using a sling. With a 3 level dip into Fighter, the Startoss feats, Inspire Courage, Good Hope, an encouraging rod, and Gloves of Dueling, you end up with fairly hefty damage. You can Spellstrike with Startoss Shower (but only affect one guy) and hit like a truck. UMD a high level scroll of divine favor if you want. Pack Haste. Do work.

Edit: weaponmaster fighter.


For monk builds, Sohie tends to be better at archery mid to high level than the zen archer.

The shohei picks up weapon training and flurry at 6th level, has no restrictions on Rapid Shot or Many Shot, has initiative equal to or better than a diviner, and can wear either a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

^^^Did they change Deadeye bowman...because it doesn't say all bows...it lists longbows only. I've never been able to use this trait in any game (when I was in PFS and tbey go by as much RAW as possible) with anything but a non-composite longbow because while everyone says RAW is silly in this instance...it's RAW. Anyway off-topic I don't want a massive thread hijack

To get wis to init yeah it'd be a 2 level dip into inquisitor...which isn't really that bad...

I just really like Point Blank Master (GM likes to surprise surround charge everyone) that the Zen Archer gets at level 3. Never provoke again. Cover? What cover? I just walk up next to the guy.


Rerednaw wrote:
^^^Did they change Deadeye bowman...because it doesn't say all bows...it lists longbows only.

Well, the Composite longbow writeup says:

Quote:
For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.

So if you're dealing with real sticklers, acquire Deadeye Bowman through the "Additional Traits" feat.


The best archers are multiclass, not straight class. For example, there no reason you can't be an urban-bloodrager/warpriest/sohei/luring-cavalier(order-of-the-land).


Zen archer is best for easy mode planning.
the class have all that is needed for super archery, leaving you 4-5 feats open.
Eldritch heritage, skill focuses, craft or some grapple off roles.
you can even plan on "shot on the run" with shadowdancer sniper style.

but.... Rangers are better.


In all honesty, the best archer is probably still the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest, single classed. You get everything you need from there: weapon training (amazing), solid spellcasting (always good), bonus feats (NECESSARY for archery), swift action buffs via Fervor... It's just so very solid. It's also where the Halfling Slingpriest comes in, and that's so very strong. Worship a deity that grants Good Hope for extra benefits. Take Fortune's Favored to maximize your Divine Favor and similar buffs. I'd actively avoid dipping too much on the Warpriest setup because you want your higher level spell slots really badly.

A single-classed Fighter could probably compete, but would inevitably have the weaknesses of not being a spellcaster. You can make up for it, kind of, and Fighter is a much more solid option to play now than it was when Core was released.

Lots of people like the Eldritch Archer Magus. It's solid. It shoots a lot of arrows. It's probably not as good as the Warpriest.

And as said earlier, I've been tinkering with the Arrowsong Minstrel. It develops pretty strongly as it levels.

Finally, note that Startoss Style opens up a lot of options for thrown weapon users and for sling users. In fact, I'd argue that a properly built thrower or slinger might be MORE powerful than an archer now, albeit archery will always have the advantage of Manyshot.


arrowsong minstrel bard.
self buff as well as the party .
take 3 levels of arcane archer + the feat that allow sonic damage to bard song and you have 1d8+2d6 each arrow.


Yes, there are absolutely newer and much better archers. As has been covered fairly extensively by everyone else. Even the Ranger was a better archer if you knew what you were doing, the Zen Archer was just a nice newbie archer (since it gives everything you want). The big deal about the Zen Archer was simply that it existed at all. It came out in the APG in 2010. I think pretty much everything being mentioned is years younger. WMH (all the fighter stuff and Arsenal Chaplain) is December 2015, for instance. ACG (Slayer) is August 2014. That's a four year gap, at best. Even Ultimate Combat (Sohei) was a year after. Honestly, I don't remember seeing anyone mention it for like two years now.


666bender wrote:

arrowsong minstrel bard.

self buff as well as the party .
take 3 levels of arcane archer + the feat that allow sonic damage to bard song and you have 1d8+2d6 each arrow.

Discordant Voice. And yeah, the alternative is to use a sling: three levels of Weaponmaster Fighter = 2 bonus feats and weapon training (+1), enabling you to grab Gloves of the Duelist for +3 weapon training total. Spend 3 feats on Startoss Style feats, providing +6 damage. On a halfling, that's +9 damage on a 1d3 weapon already, and it's all available at a low level.

At higher levels we're looking at Extended Good Hope with an Encouraging Rod for a +3 morale bonus to everyone's attack/damage/saves/skill checks. You also get a +4 Inspire Courage, and you eventually get Weapon Specialization for +2 damage, and of course you have Clustered Shots. Assuming 12 starting Strength with a +6 strength item and a +5 sling with some magical bullets to add +1d6 elemental damage of some kind, we're looking at some pretty big damage numbers by 20:

1d3+1d6(sonic)+1d6(elemental)+5(Weapon)+4(STR)+6(Startoss)+2(Weapon Spec)+3(Weapon Training)+3(Good Hope)+4(Inspire Courage), or 1d3+2d6+26. Apply Deadly Aim for 1d3+2d6+34, which is 37-49 four times a round with Rapid Shot, which is 148-196 damage if they all hit. Potentially Point Blank Shot increases this to 152-200. There's more damage you could get here, of course.

But you could also use your Ranged Spellstrike ability to throw out some mean sluggers at the same time. In fact, if you go Fighter 2 instead of Fighter 3 (dropping the +3 damage from Weapon Training, sadly), you can shoot rays at the enemy - and you can take 6th level wizard evocation spells as an Arrowsong Minstrel. So, while the damage for ordinary sling attacks drops from 152-200 to 140-188, you're looking at throwing out, say, a Cold Ice Strike for 15d6 in a line, or 8d6 damage from Elemental Assessor with lingering 4d6 damage for 1d4 rounds, or - and this one has the [Evil] Descriptor - you could shoot two 15d6 damage rays at the enemy with Hellfire Ray, meaning your 140-188 damage against one target (assuming everything hits) jumps up to 190-368 damage.

And again, this isn't the most powerful setup I can imagine, and I haven't calculated everything you could do to boost this character's damage. Heck, sacrificing Point Blank Master and dropping a Fighter level would add another 15-60 damage to the aforementioned attack, bringing us to 205-428, which is still not all that impressive. But Arrowsong Minstrel archers/slingers look like they've got a place in the game, somewhere close behind Warpriest archers/slingers.

Also... You can get Shadowbard and Virtuoso Performance to maintain other buffs, because you're a bard. Inspire Heroics for +4 dodge AC? Countersong when fighting certain enemies? Frightening Tune?


Sorry, I mathed badly in the above post. For the Hellfire build... Should be 170-368, and then 185-428 with only 1 fighter level.


Well, I narrowed it down to Zen or Ranger... and I think I'll go with Zen. The intention is running a gestalt character through Emerald Spire and I've got a... fairly optimized (by my standards at least), Aasimar Zen Archer/Wildblood Empyreal sorcerer. Wisdom based casting combined with Wisdom archery and AC.

I'm hoping to finally get around to trying out the Arcane Archer prestige class... and this should be a pretty solid build for it. BAB is lower than I'd like meaning I can't jump till at least 8th level... but should still be able to have some fun.


Rerednaw wrote:
^^^Did they change Deadeye bowman...because it doesn't say all bows...it lists longbows only.

The Hornbow makes this kind of argument meaningless. "All hornbows are composite bows and can be modified to benefit from high Strength scores in the same way as other composite bows. Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows."

So using a hornbow prevents any 'issues' you could run into with 'longbow' rules.


The big deal with the Zen Archer is that it had comparable damage output to other archers while getting a lot of tricks earlier than them (e.g. Point Blank Master), while also having much better defenses. Also, it was at the time the only way to threaten and make Attacks of Opportunity with a bow, and most classes can't afford to spare the feats on the Snap Shot line anyways.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

For monk builds, Sohie tends to be better at archery mid to high level than the zen archer.

The shohei picks up weapon training and flurry at 6th level, has no restrictions on Rapid Shot or Many Shot, has initiative equal to or better than a diviner, and can wear either a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor.

is there any way a sohie monk can get fighter feats with out multiclassing fighter?


Lady-J wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

For monk builds, Sohie tends to be better at archery mid to high level than the zen archer.

The shohei picks up weapon training and flurry at 6th level, has no restrictions on Rapid Shot or Many Shot, has initiative equal to or better than a diviner, and can wear either a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor.

is there any way a sohie monk can get fighter feats with out multiclassing fighter?

Probably not, but a Halfling Sohei could go down the Startoss Style line of feats (for +2 damage per feat, three times), get Trained Throw via Weapon Training at level 12, and get another +1 attack with slings via a racial feat that functions as a second Weapon Focus.

So... Close enough, if you're a tiny person that throws rocks.

To put it in perspective: at level 20 with Haste, Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows - that's 9 attacks with the sling each round. +10 damage from weapon training (+3 with gloves of dueling = +5, doubled for damage thanks to Trained Throw), +6 from Startoss feats... And then all the usual buffs and factors to amplify the damage. Bonus points if you have a bard buddy.


Lady-J wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

For monk builds, Sohie tends to be better at archery mid to high level than the zen archer.

The shohei picks up weapon training and flurry at 6th level, has no restrictions on Rapid Shot or Many Shot, has initiative equal to or better than a diviner, and can wear either a mithral breastplate or Celestial Armor.

is there any way a sohie monk can get fighter feats with out multiclassing fighter?

They could multiclass warpriest or brawler or any other class/archetype that gets to count as fighter. If you want to single class a monk that can take fighter feats, that's Martial Artist and it doesn't fit with Sohei.


Lady-J wrote:
is there any way a sohie monk can get fighter feats with out multiclassing fighter?

What do you mean? There's no such thing as a "fighter feat", and there are only a few feats (out of thousands) that specifically require a number of levels in the fighter class (Weapon Specialization being the one everybody's heard of).

Monks get "bonus" feats for which they do not need to meet prerequisites. The list they can choose from is static, however, with some variance depending on archetype. Sohei, for example, add Mounted Combat-chain feats to their static list (which permits an archer concept to yoink Mounted Skirmisher right away).


Slim Jim wrote:
"fighter feat"

That's commonly know as 'feats that require fighter levels'.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
"fighter feat"
That's commonly know as 'feats that require fighter levels'.

Most of the feats are listed on this page of the d20pfsrd. Weapon Mastery Feats are technically available to other classes that take the Martial Focus feat, but Fighters have easier access to them since they have more feats to spend and don't need to waste one on a prerequisite. Advanced Weapon Training is also a fighter-specific feat that provides Fighters with abilities that are often better than normal feats (by a wide margin), so those are also important to consider.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

As for why the Zen Archer Monk is better defensively than other classes, it begins with having all good saves and WIS as a primary stat. While they don't strictly need good DEX to hit it's still a good defensive measure that also boosts Initiative, so it doesn't hurt to have. Adding WIS to AC along with a scaling bonus based on level, plus a friendly caster or a wand for Mage Armor, makes them very competitive on AC without spending very much money. More importantly, their Touch AC is much higher than most, making them very hard to hit for spellcasters. Their HP isn't fantastic at d8+Con, but with all these bonus feats they can afford Toughness and thanks to using WIS instead of DEX they can actually go higher on CON if needed.

Offensively, there's very little contest - Zen Archer Monks eventually make 7 attacks per round as a baseline with little consideration for cover or concealment. Purchasing a Cyclonic bow makes them very difficult to defend against using wind-based defenses too. While their BAB isn't great, being close to SAD means they can pump up their attack rolls higher than others can afford to without sacrificing defense. Additionally, with the availability of Haste and the ability to spend a Ki Point to make another attack, they can get more attacks per turn than any other archer. That makes them fantastic buff targets, so parties with Clerics, Bards, and Wizards will get a lot more out of the class than they would with a different archer in them.


LuniasM: Whenever I see someone say "fighter feats", I read it as 'a feat that requires levels of fighter' as a prerequisite. That was my point. From Lady-J's post, she clearly wasn't talking about feats that a fighter gets easier or get more utility out of, so there was no reason to change my general assumption.


Are you allowed to take 3rd part classes? Check out the Serene Barbarian. It becomes possible to multiclass with Monk or ZAM if you use the Aasimar race with the Enlightened Warrior trait.

You could pump WIS and CHA and even dump DEX with one level of Oracle. Check out the PC for this profile.


Quote:
In all honesty, the best archer is probably still the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest, single classed. You get everything you need from there: weapon training (amazing), solid spellcasting (always good), bonus feats (NECESSARY for archery), swift action buffs via Fervor... It's just so very solid. It's also where the Halfling Slingpriest comes in...

Tiny increment ranges are aggravating. --I'm going to kill that thing Fireballing me from the next county.

STR 14
DEX 17
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 07

traits: Deadeye Bowman, Magical Knack
1 Bloodrager1 (urban) (retrained to Barbarian1 Savage Technologist at 8th) Extra Rage
2 Sohei1 (flurry)(monk feat: Mounted Skirmisher)
3 Sohei2 (monk feat: Combat Reflexes) Point-Blank Shot
4 Sohei3
5 Sohei4 (ki) Rapid Shot
6 Sohei5
7 Sohei6 (Weapon Training bows)(monk feat: ) Martial Focus bows
8 Cavalier1 (Order of the Land)(teamwork feat Amplified Rage)
9 Barbarian2 (rage power Ferocious Beast) Manyshot
10 Warpriest1 (Weapon Focus Longbow)
11 Warpriest2 (fervor) Deadly Aim
12 Cavalier2 (Adaptive Strike, Catch Off-Guard)
13 Cavalier3 Improved Critical Longbow
14 Cavalier4 (expert tactician)

Equipment:
- Meditation Crystal (several)
- Pale green prism ioun stone, cracked: attack +1
- Champion’s Banner (samurai back frame…body slot?)
- Gloves of Dueling (hands)
- Bracers of Archery, Greater (wrists)
- Boots of Speed (feet)
- Daikyu of Commanding Presence (weapon)
- +1/bane special material arrows (assorted bunches)

Mount feats/equipment:
- Extra Item Slot
- Commander’s Helm (Teamwork: Amplified Rage)

Attributes at 14th
str 24 +7 (+8 amplified rage, +2 ioun stone)
dex 34 +12 (17->20, +8 amplified rage, +6 belt)

Attack bonus at 14th versus Challenged opponent:
13 Flurry BAB
12 dexterity 34
1 Weapon Focus
3 Weapon Training
2 enhancement
1 Martial Focus
2 competence
1 Haste
= +35
conditionals:
+1 Point-Blank Shot
+3 luck (swift Divine Favor)
+3 morale (Order of the Land)
-2 Flurry
-2 Rapid Shot
-4 Deadly Aim
=+34
-5 2nd full attack iterative
-10 3rd full attack iterative

Damage at 14th
4.5 (d8)
7 strength
8 challenge
8 Deadly Aim
3 Weapon Training
3 luck
2 enhancement
1 competence
1 Martial Focus
1 Point-Blank Shot
= 38.5 numerical
~10 averaged crit bonus if 90% confirm: [(.1)(.9)(3x38.5=115.5)]
+2d6 bane arrows
= 55.5

Many/Rapid/Flurry/Hasted/Ki: m(+34/+34)/r+34/f+34/h+34/k+34/+29/+25

Notes:
- blows things up full-power right in the first round; no slow scaling
- Horse Master feat at 15th grants full-level mount (where can I get a flying rhino?)
- ridiculously high saves and Evasion


Or you can be a single classed Warpriest, using either a sling or longbow. I'll crunch numbers after work - the Warpriest's spellcasting does wonders.


I worked out a no-archetype warpriest archer up to level 20 once, I'll see if I can dig her up again. No guarantees - she might be lost.


What is the "best" is certainly up for debate. One really nice thing about Zen Archer is that it gets so many bonus feats that you have some to spare. My Zen Archer/Inquisitor (With the goal of avoiding the flurry of misses and instead get Perfect Shot/Manyshot/Bane going, as well as backing up a party with no divine casting) is a dwarf with Steel Soul and Glory of Old, which means that at level 9 I have a ridiculous +21 will/+18 fort save vs spells/sla's (16/13 vs Su/Ex), and I also have toughness for some pretty solid hp (93 at L9)

But my warpriest is a better archer, higher to hit and higher damage per hit. It's almost all due to Divine Favor/Faiths Favored. Without those scaling luck bonuses it wouldn't compete with any of the builds. And having the cleric spellcasting list means cleric scrolls, which are huge. All the "Remove" spells,(Lesser) resto, invis purge. And medium armor and spontenaous healing.

My main takeaway is that any of the archer builds will play their role well. They do a lot of damage, they usually can start full attacking in round 1 and care far less about positioning. They can deal with almost any monster defense through buying the right arrows.


Shorticus wrote:
Or you can be a single classed Warpriest, using either a sling or longbow. I'll crunch numbers after work - the Warpriest's spellcasting does wonders.

You're going to be pretty hard-pressed to match 35 raw numerical bonus before dice (including the arrow itself) at 14th while maintaining a +34 attack bonus to six-of-eight arrows per round after accounting for -8 worth of flurry/rapid/deadly penalties. The straight-class won't have Evasion, as high saves or AC, as wide a selection of skills, or a super-buff full-level side-kick.

(Minor math error in previous: crits should be averaging about 7, not 10, additional.)


Oh, not disagreeing. It's a very solid build. I do want to crunch the numbers with a single classed character, though, and see how it operates at different intervals. I'd also want to see how many rounds it takes for the character to get online.

My instinct? Weapon Training + Good Hope + the higher level cleric spell that functions as Haste and Divine Favor, Fate's Favored, encouraging rod... It won't be shabby in comparison. ItIt'll probably do less damage, but have better spellcasting and solid enough defenses. I might test a dip in Barb or Bloodrager.

Arrowsong Minstrel is a fun one I want to finish analyzing. Good buffs, adaptable luck if Halfling, and solid spellstrike options.

34 attack is damned good, though.


Shorticus wrote:
34 attack is damned good, though.

Fight a round with the penalties (two fewer attacks and -8 damage per) and it's +42, or 52-53 average after rolling your d20.

There are not too many things less than epic that you can't hit.


Shorticus wrote:
I'd also want to see how many rounds it takes for the character to get online.
That is the main problem with archers: they take a long time to get their ducks in a row, whereas your typical beatstick is mostly done by 3rd-level aside from damage bumps at 5th/6th and pounce five levels later.
Quote:
34 attack is damned good, though.

Go a round with rapid/flurry/deadly penalties (two fewer attacks and -8 damage per) and it's +42, or 52-53 average after rolling your d20.

There are not too many things less than epic that you can't hit.


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I think assuming that you'll have the right bane arrows seems unlikely. There are 32 types and subtypes to which bane can apply, getting enough +1 bane arrows for two rounds of fire (at your rate of 8/round, 16 arrows) against each will set you back about 85K. You might want more against, say, humanoid (human) too. Even at 14th level that's a lot of gold.

It needs updating - this was made a couple of years back - but this is a warpriest I put together.

Spoiler:
Half-elf rather than human, because seeing farther, especially in darkness, may matter for an archer quite a bit
20-point build: str 14, dex 19, con 13, int 10, wis 13, cha 7
Assuming that blessings which don't say 'projectile weapons with this property apply it to their ammo' or something similar, don't.
Assuming that the +1/6 of a combat feat FCB is not part of the bonus feats class feature, so doesn't get its benefits, & it can be started at level 1.
Warpriest of Shelyn
1: sacred weapon, blessings (air, charm), weapon focus (longbow), point-blank shot, skill focus (perception)
2: fervor 1d6
3: rapid shot, precise shot
4: channel energy, sacred weapon +1, wis +1
5: fervor 2d6, eagle eyes (or signature skill: perception)
6: weapon spec. (longbow), deadly aim
7: sacred armor +1, stabbing shot
8: fervor 3d6, sacred weapon +2, dex +1
9: manyshot, clustered shots
10: major blessings, sacred armor +2
11: fervor 4d6, quicken blessing
12: sacred weapon +3, improved precise shot, improved critical (longbow), wis +1
13: sacred armor +3, hammer the gap
14: fervor 5d6
15: greater weapon focus (longbow), snap shot
16: sacred weapon +4, sacred armor +4, wis +1
17: fervour 6d6, improved snap shot
18: greater weapon spec (longbow), critical focus
19: sacred armor +5, staggering critical
20: aspect of war, fervor 7d6, sacred weapon +5, con +1

& her equipment at 14th level.

Spoiler:
L14: +5 adaptive impervious composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of physical might +4 (str, dex), headband of incredible wisdom +2, greater bracers of archery, +1 spell storing darkleaf cloth studded leather armor, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +1, sandals of quick reaction, storm goggles, silver nocking point, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +5

Grand Lodge

Just use a Bane Baldric and you'll have bane of whatever you need for quite a few rounds a day.

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