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I sincerely lament for the 'good old days' of just five years ago when the most lively, energetic, and often no-holds-barred non-gaming-related discussions were held right here at Paizo.
The OTD section of the Boards was the go-to place for philosophical, well-thought and well-written, intellectually- and socially-engaged, well, off-topic discussions--things that didn't necessarily define the gamer stereotype, things about which--and not surprising to actual gamers--we were intensely passionate!
These days, before any fur flies or digital faces are smacked, the Heavy Hand of Thread-Lock descends because the thread become 'hostile'!?
Are we really such intellectual cowards that the engines of discourse perforce must drive debate that is only flawlessly, precisely, undoubtedly inoffensive to anyone in any way?
What's happened to us?
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I thought the OTD was more for the hilarious fun threads, like the Jacks' Clubhouse and Thread Celestial. And that in fact the recent rise in the political threads created a toxic environment where people argued their point and no-one ever conceded any argument.
I thought the OTD was more for the hilarious fun threads, like the Jacks' Clubhouse and Thread Celestial. And that in fact the recent rise in the political threads created a toxic environment where people argued their point and no-one ever conceded any argument.
They were both.... I remember several posters being hit with the ban hammer for being racist jerks. I also remember some excellent discourse.
There are some topics where it is too soon to start the conversation others that are going to become a cesspit, sometimes the boards surprise you.
I thought the OTD was more for the hilarious fun threads, like the Jacks' Clubhouse and Thread Celestial. And that in fact the recent rise in the political threads created a toxic environment where people argued their point and no-one ever conceded any argument.
Granted I've only been active on the boards about 5 years or so, but baby it's always been that way.
It's how we like it!
They've time and again refused requests to just make a "politics" sub-forum.
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I gotta agree with DSX here. When I first joined Paizo there were some political threads floating around OTD, but most of us could just avoid them easily enough, and their caustic conversation didn't leak out over the rest of the subforum and the OTD was mostly a place for OOC silliness, non-serious RPs, and general goofiness.
Much of that has ceased, though the Hide function does an immense amount of help in locking the acidity away. It sadly still has not been enough to keep some good people from leaving the forum (or at least, ceasing to participate in anything in OTD) due to the air of general hostility to anyone who deviates from the generally-accepted opinions.
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They were both.... I remember several posters being hit with the ban hammer for being racist jerks. I also remember some excellent discourse.
There are some topics where it is too soon to start the conversation others that are going to become a cesspit, sometimes the boards surprise you.
The gems are worth it; I'll take the Areopagitica over the dark and silent void any day.
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Meh. Once you've seen Scott Betts fight with Andrew R., you don't really need to see it ever again.
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It is difficult for many people today to accept that if you hear an opinion you don't agree with, you aren't a traumatized and therefore saintly victim.
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When did it get weird?
I thought we still had Communist Goblins, Aussie Constitutionals, New England Liberals, Western Gun Lovers, Closet Conservatives and Economic Progressives all engaging in topics that would go nuclear anywhere else?
Have y'all been out on the interwebz? Those people are CRAZY.
I may not post but I lurk, oh I lurk. This is likely the most civil forum on the wide webs world.
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New England Communist Goblins.
New England Communist Goblins.
Phhhft second rate American New England, You need a proper Australian New England that looks nothing like England... ;-)
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New Hampshire vs. New South Wales!
I was looking for Youtube videos of New England Australia and I Found this. I miss the country I don't see ads like that anymore.
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It is difficult for many people today to accept that if you hear an opinion you don't agree with, you aren't a traumatized and therefore saintly victim.
Conversely, it is difficult for many people today to accept that if you have the ability and anonymity to be a douchebag poster, you don't have to exercise it.
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It is difficult for many people today to accept that if you hear an opinion you don't agree with, you aren't a traumatized and therefore saintly victim.Conversely, it is difficult for many people today to accept that if you have the ability and anonymity to be a douchebag poster, you don't have to exercise it.
Have to? No. But being a douchebag does in no way include "disagreeing with what someone else thinks and attacking that person's arguments." Which many seem to think it does. Playing the victim card happens instantly today. As does various racist/sexist cards. That is most of the difference today.
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Have to? No. But being a douchebag does in no way include "disagreeing with what someone else thinks and attacking that person's arguments." Which many seem to think it does. Playing the victim card happens instantly today. As does various racist/sexist cards. That is most of the difference today.It is difficult for many people today to accept that if you hear an opinion you don't agree with, you aren't a traumatized and therefore saintly victim.Conversely, it is difficult for many people today to accept that if you have the ability and anonymity to be a douchebag poster, you don't have to exercise it.
While I agree that victim cards are overplayed, I think there's a distinction between attacking someone's argument civilly and politely and doing so in a jerk way. Some posters skirt the messageboard rules by being total jerks, technically attacking other posters' arguments, but doing so in a hostile, condescending way that demeans and bullies other posters.
When did it get weird?
I thought we still had Communist Goblins, Aussie Constitutionals, New England Liberals, Western Gun Lovers, Closet Conservatives and Economic Progressives all engaging in topics that would go nuclear anywhere else?Have y'all been out on the interwebz? Those people are CRAZY.
I may not post but I lurk, oh I lurk. This is likely the most civil forum on the wide webs world.
I am actually a disillusioned Fabian, republican (as in get rid of the Monarchy) Green voter...
But Aussie Constitutional will do.
Have to? No. But being a douchebag does in no way include "disagreeing with what someone else thinks and attacking that person's arguments." Which many seem to think it does. Playing the victim card happens instantly today. As does various racist/sexist cards. That is most of the difference today.It is difficult for many people today to accept that if you hear an opinion you don't agree with, you aren't a traumatized and therefore saintly victim.Conversely, it is difficult for many people today to accept that if you have the ability and anonymity to be a douchebag poster, you don't have to exercise it.
Leaving aside the problems and foibles of individual and/or aggregate posters, I want to register my disagreement with the premise of this thread because, recent thread started by Comrade Pravda notwithstanding, I haven't seen all that much Preemptive Thread Locking in the OTD recently.
Not that I've done a thorough statistical survey or nothin', nor was I here five years ago, but my THC-addled memory can only recall three subjects that summon the preemptive thread locking. These are: 1) abortion (which, I understand, is a long-running PTL subject); 2) gun control (which I am guessing became a PTL over the past couple of years due to all around bad behavior; I'm kinda happy about it, really, because I ran out of black militants self-defending themselves with guns against racists and/or the government to link and the longer the PTL, the better chance that people will have forgotten about them when I finally have to link them again); and 3) Holocaust denial (which I didn't previously know was a PTL subject, but I guess I could've guessed).
In addition, there are still long-running, energetic, no-holds-barred (which I am interpreting as "insult-laden") threads that don't get locked, best example I can think of being The Ukraine Thingy thread.
[Shrugs]
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Have to? No. But being a douchebag does in no way include "disagreeing with what someone else thinks and attacking that person's arguments." Which many seem to think it does. Playing the victim card happens instantly today. As does various racist/sexist cards. That is most of the difference today.It is difficult for many people today to accept that if you hear an opinion you don't agree with, you aren't a traumatized and therefore saintly victim.Conversely, it is difficult for many people today to accept that if you have the ability and anonymity to be a douchebag poster, you don't have to exercise it.
I'm not talking about legitimate disagreement and counter-arguments. And I don't see card-playing--victim/racist/sexist/whateverist--in forum posts nearly as much as full-speed douchebaggery... but I imagine we're going to disagree here.
I really wish that no matter how expertly and swiftly arguments and unsubstantiated positions get pulled apart, that everyone could still make an extra effort to remain civil and respectful to each other.
New Hampshire vs. New South Wales!
Just because I am looking around on Youtube and its got nothing to do with the conversation...
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Are we really such intellectual cowards that the engines of discourse perforce must drive debate that is only flawlessly, precisely, undoubtedly inoffensive to anyone in any way?
No.
On the other hand, Paizo is a company that may or may not want to allow a few opinionated potty-mouths to turn what is essentially a marketing platform into a festering sewer.
If you really want to go discuss politics with Tourette's patients, there's always 4chan.
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But Aussie Constitutional will do.
I had assumed this was a reference to Comrade Dingo. Not that I'm sure what an Aussie Constitutional is. Not that I'm sure I can think of a two-word descriptor of Comrade Dingo.
Unless it's "wicked awesome."
New EnglandCommunist GoblinsHereditary Nobility.
Fixed that for you, Doodles. :)
(More seriously, I agree with you on not seeing much PTL outside your three problem topics. All the examples of PTL I can think of come with an explanation from the mods, which is the least draconian PTL I've ever seen. As Orf pointed out, it's Paizo's board and they'll mod it as the please, which I find better than the alternative.)
But Aussie Constitutional will do.I had assumed this was a reference to Comrade Dingo. Not that I'm sure what an Aussie Constitutional is. Not that I'm sure I can think of a two-word descriptor of Comrade Dingo.
Unless it's "wicked awesome."
Cool... I wasn't quite sure.
I don't think YD is allowed to vote... Him having "a few kangaroos loose in his top paddock" if you catch my drift...
His wackiness provides me with much mirth as he tries to get us to think outside the Rhomboid.
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As Orf pointed out, it's Paizo's board and they'll mod it as the please, which I find better than the alternative.)
Yeah, I didn't make that point because Paizo is a thoroughly racist company that peddles goblin brains as a tasty treat to attendees of their international convocations of genocide, but I tend to agree.
I am always surprised about what they let me say. Maybe they're all secret commies.
It won't save them, though, come the Night of the Long Anklebiters.
Cool... I wasn't quite sure.
I don't think YD is allowed to vote... Him having "a few kangaroos loose in his top paddock" if you catch my drift...
His wackiness provides me with much mirth as he tries to get us to think outside the Rhomboid.
I'm not sure, either, it's just what I thought.
Comrade Dingo, rest assured, the Soviet Republic of Workers and Goblins will pay close attention to your internet petitions.
Hail Dingo!
Vive le Galt!
As Orf pointed out, it's Paizo's board and they'll mod it as the please, which I find better than the alternative.)Yeah, I didn't make that point because Paizo is a thoroughly racist company that peddles goblin brains as a tasty treat to attendees of their international convocations of genocide, but I tend to agree.
Which simply proves how misguided they are. Goblin brains taste like rancid butter soaked in urine. In what possible way are they a "tasty treat"?
It's a long list of people (and illithids) who are going to get it.
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It's a long list of people (and illithids) who are going to get it.
Well, duh, I'll hide inside Manse Dice; the curtain walls aren't cosmetic.
I don't see a problem with preemptive thread locking. Some things prove not to be good topics. Like the one on gun control, where by the end I was flagging posts on both sides.
Then again, I'm starting to notice that even topics on equality can't be discussed anymore without having to flag people, and not just in this forum.
Part of the problem is that the equality movement on here is becoming filled with the same vile poison that equality movements in other forums have been. It's quickly coming to the point where the difference between someone who is sexist and someone who opposes sexism is increasingly academic. And the recent topic on gun control? End of the day, I had dropped out and was flagging both sides for the same crap.
I don't claim to be an angel by any stretch of the imagination, though. I know I cause problems. I'm still puzzled on how to fix it, but end of the day it's my responsibility for the problems I cause even if I don't intend to cause them.
Part of the problem is that the equality movement on here is becoming filled with the same vile poison that equality movements in other forums have been.
And this surprises you?
I'd ask for some examples of this, because I usually find those pretty good examples of playing the "You played the racist/sexist card" card too quickly, but I suspect that would just poison this thread even more quickly than it's already going.And this surprises you?
Part of the problem is that the equality movement on here is becoming filled with the same vile poison that equality movements in other forums have been.
It would poison this thread and turn it into a flamefest rather quickly. Plus, calling out specific people on a thread like this is not something I feel comfortable doing when I cannot say that I am free of causing problems.
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Off topic, I pulled Aussie Constitutional outta my butt.
But maybe Dingo was kicking around in the back of my mind. I like his topics even if I can't really tell where he's going with it sometimes. He adds something special to OT.
What's funny about the whole of Paizo forums; is that the Rules forum probably requires more MoD attention than OT. Abortion may be a hot topic but it's nothing on Pallys Failing or Flurry of Blows interpretations.
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When did it get weird?
I thought we still had Communist Goblins, Aussie Constitutionals, New England Liberals, Western Gun Lovers, Closet Conservatives and Economic Progressives all engaging in topics that would go nuclear anywhere else?Have y'all been out on the interwebz? Those people are CRAZY.
I may not post but I lurk, oh I lurk. This is likely the most civil forum on the wide webs world.
Unfortunately due to some people over in OTD, Conservatives of all stripes are completely unwelcome and would do well to not give their opinion at all. Especially due to communist goblins, rabid wolves and gambling thugs not to mention employees bullying posters. I only come to Paizo for online pbp games and occasionally browsing the advice columns, . Otherwise, I avoid Paizo like the plague.
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Y'know Cimbria, I don't think I've seen someone bullied for voicing disagreement in a civil tone; I can think of dozens of examples of both sides of the conversation (yes, myself included) going from zero to stupid in no time flat, but in cases like that it usually takes two (or the entire thread) to tango.
Off topic, I pulled Aussie Constitutional outta my butt.
But maybe Dingo was kicking around in the back of my mind. I like his topics even if I can't really tell where he's going with it sometimes. He adds something special to OT.
What's funny about the whole of Paizo forums; is that the Rules forum probably requires more MoD attention than OT. Abortion may be a hot topic but it's nothing on Pallys Failing or Flurry of Blows interpretations.
I've been known to get involved in OTD, including the most recently-locked gun control one.
After a few failed attempts at friendly rationality in the Rules forum, I just don't go there any more. (Unless someone gives me too good of a straight line to pass up, of course. Some things you just gotta do...)
Especially due to communist goblins,
[Cries]
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Y'know Cimbria, I don't think I've seen someone bullied for voicing disagreement in a civil tone; I can think of dozens of examples of both sides of the conversation (yes, myself included) going from zero to stupid in no time flat, but in cases like that it usually takes two (or the entire thread) to tango.
Half-favorited? I see posters get bullied all the time, but instead of taking the high road, they answer with equal hostility. I try to stay above that kind of bickering, but I've blown that Will save on more than one occasion. It usually winds up with two (or more) hostile parties, but often starts with just one.
Unfortunately due to some people over in OTD, Conservatives of all stripes are completely unwelcome and would do well to not give their opinion at all. Especially due to communist goblins, rabid wolves and gambling thugs not to mention employees bullying posters. I only come to Paizo for online pbp games and occasionally browsing the advice columns, . Otherwise, I avoid Paizo like the plague.When did it get weird?
I thought we still had Communist Goblins, Aussie Constitutionals, New England Liberals, Western Gun Lovers, Closet Conservatives and Economic Progressives all engaging in topics that would go nuclear anywhere else?Have y'all been out on the interwebz? Those people are CRAZY.
I may not post but I lurk, oh I lurk. This is likely the most civil forum on the wide webs world.
Hmmmm. I'd say there's at least as much of a libertarian conservative presence in OTD as a liberal one. Your experience may depend on what particular flavor of conservative you are and which arguments you get involved in. Plenty of people I'd consider conservative take part and generally seem to give as much bullying as they take.
I've rarely seen employees bullying posters. Maybe occasionally over overt sexism or homophobia, but considering the makeup of the company, that's not so much liberal as self-defence. Never over conservative economics or gun rights or foreign policy or any of the other things we go on about.
I haven't been involved in the online bickering, ergo my "particular flavor" isn't really in question, I keep to just reading by and large. I went looking for the thread where I called out the employee, but apparently the thread was locked then taken away/deleted/banished to the Phantom Zone.
Please clarify your last bit as it seems to say "Bullying is ok sometimes because it is really self defence".
There are some Ladies in Paizo's employ who are very skilled at debate. So yah sexism can get em going. Also there are a surprising number of Homosexuals here, at least one of which is very conservative and loves guns! He's a good debater too.
People defend their views and lifestyle choices. They also defend their faith, guns and economic views.
As a rule of thumb, you should expect to see a diametrically opposed view in almost any OT thread.
I don't see a problem with preemptive thread locking. Some things prove not to be good topics. Like the one on gun control, where by the end I was flagging posts on both sides.
Then again, I'm starting to notice that even topics on equality can't be discussed anymore without having to flag people, and not just in this forum.
So stop flagging people!
Jeez...