DR and touch attacks


Rules Questions


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As per the PRD entry on DR:

PRD wrote:


Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

This language is also found in the CRB, page 561 (6th printing.) I realize it was written before Ultimate Combat, but...

Is this passage intended to let Gunslingers bypass DR?

The intent seems clear, but the wording is such that Gunslingers (or anyone else using a weapon as a touch attack) could make a RAW-based argument that "DR doesn't apply against touch attacks." I don't see anything in the firearms section of UC that would negate this, either, and archetypes like Bolt Ace can do this without even touching the firearm rules. If the intent is that DR does not negate energy-based touch attacks, the wording needs tightened up.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Gunslingers don’t make touch attacks, right?
They resolve their normal attacks against touch AC if the attack meets several criteria.


At that time touch attacks didn't do normal damage. DR works against normal damage, but this does need to be fixed.


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I think the wording says only what it says.

Quote:
Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks,

.

This means that a creature's DR doesn't prevent them from being touched.

It doesn't say anything about negating or not negating the [bold]damage[/bold] of the touch attack.

So, a creature that has DR and is shot by a gun (even if fired by someone who is able to target their Touch AC), then their DR doesn't mean that the bullet didn't hit them. They get hit. But their DR still applies to the damage of the bullet, so it's quite possible that they don't take any Hit Point damage.


I guess, if it was a bullet laced with an injury poison, it might still be a question worth asking.


I agree with James. Firearms don't make touch attacks, they make attacks that resolve against touch AC. So I see no reason DR would not apply to an attack from a firearm.


I'm pretty sure they are touch attacks:

Quote:
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee).

So, an attack that disregards armor is a "Touch Attack".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Melkiador wrote:

I'm pretty sure they are touch attacks:

Quote:
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee).
So, an attack that disregards armor is a "Touch Attack".

Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing beyond her firearm's first range increment.

They make a normal AC attack, and they resolve that non touch attack against touch AC.

The Concordance

James has the right of it.


It also benefits the gunslinger for this to not be a touch attack because it allows for them to use deadly aim, which can't be used with touch attacks.

Quote:


Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.


For the record, I do think the intent was that firearms and other materially-damaging touch attacks should be subject to DR. I just also think the rules as written are a bit lacking in that regard.

James Risner wrote:
Melkiador wrote:

I'm pretty sure they are touch attacks:

Quote:
Touch Attacks: Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee).
So, an attack that disregards armor is a "Touch Attack".

Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing beyond her firearm's first range increment.

They make a normal AC attack, and they resolve that non touch attack against touch AC.

Even if this was the case, and ignoring the poster you quoted, it would still only apply if the gunslinger was using that specific deed.

wraithstrike wrote:

It also benefits the gunslinger for this to not be a touch attack because it allows for them to use deadly aim, which can't be used with touch attacks.

Quote:


Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Not really. According to the firearms rules:

Quote:
Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.

Deadly Aim specifically works. I would also not read this as "it's never considered a touch attack", and DR is nothing like Deadly Aim.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
shaventalz wrote:
For the record, I do think the intent was that firearms and other materially-damaging touch attacks should be subject to DR. I just also think the rules as written are a bit lacking in that regard.

Remember that DR does not negate touch attacks, in the context of "Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack..."

However, guns do not generally do special effects. So this rule does not apply to the damage that guns do when resolving against touch AC, regardless of if you consider them touch attacks. If the DR negates the damage from the gun's attack, then any special effects are negated, unless you rule that the gun's attack is a touch attack, in which case the special effect goes through despite the damage not doing so.

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