Skill DCs scaling too fast?


General Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm creating a soldier and looking at skills to take. It seems the skill DCs just scale too fast for my character to keep up. Let me give some examples.

As a soldier my class tells me I need Str, Dex and Con. So I figured, I'd have something like 12 int and 20 Cha at high level.

I take a look at the bounty hunter theme:
Jack of all trades [12th level]
Allows me to roll skills untrained and get a +4 if I roll a 20.

#1: Let's say I want to identify what I'm fighting and I meet a DM created Space Goblin King [CR14] at lvl 14.

To identify it, I need 5+ 1½ CR (DC 26). If I roll a 20 +4 (jack of all trades) +1 (int), I have a total of 25, not enough to identify an equal CR space goblin (which should be peanuts imho). Let alone know any facts about it.

Apparently the theme is useless?

#2: I'm [lvl 20] know and put used all my skills ranks for identifying creates. Now I'm meeting the DM created Space Goblin Emperor of Goblin Kind [CR20].
But now I got the skill fully trained, I'm an expert at identifying creatures!

To identify it, I need 5+ 1½ CR (DC 35).
I got 20 ranks +3 class skill + 1 int for a total of 1d20 +24, I need to roll an 11 to recognize the Space Goblin as a Space Goblin.

That seems way too high to identify an equal CR Space Goblin as a fully trained, at identifying creatures character. I can't even identify rare creatures on a natural 20 (DC 45)

#3: Well maybe soldiers have no need to identify creatures and it just doesn't work. Let me try training intimidate instead, it is a class skill after all and I invested a lot to get 20 Cha.
I'm a scary soldier with a big weapon, max ranks in intimidate and 20 Charisma at [lvl 20] and I have a Dwarven buddy who dropped his charisma to 4 for roleplaying reasons.
Should be much harder to intimidate me, a battle hardened soldier, right? DC is Intimidate skill +10.

He, a dwarf with 4 charisma, has a defense vs intimidate of 15+ 1½ CR (DC 45).
Me, I got 20 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 5 (20 Cha) = 28 Intimidate
28 + 10 is 38, 7 short of the 45 everybody gets.

Even if I grab skill focus for another +3, I'm still 4 short.

Is there any point in getting skill ranks if you don't get a class based insight bonus in this game?


Looking at the Alien Archive (which I'm not allowed to use for PC options, yet) there is the Kyokor a [CR 20] with +4 cha and 39 intimidate.
And it doesn't even have racial bonuses nor does it seems to be very specialized in intimidating.

20 (ranks) + 4 (cha) + 3 (class bonus) = 27

How as a PC are you ever supposed to get that additional +12 to match it?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rikkan wrote:

Looking at the Alien Archive (which I'm not allowed to use for PC options, yet) there is the Kyokor a [CR 20] with +4 cha and 39 intimidate.

And it doesn't even have racial bonuses nor does it seems to be very specialized in intimidating.

20 (ranks) + 4 (cha) + 3 (class bonus) = 27

How as a PC are you ever supposed to get that additional +12 to match it?

How as a PC are you ever going to intimidate a collosal CR 20 monster whose hobbies include destroying all life on a planet by yelling at him?


Congrats, you determined that the game wasn't playtested at high levels and that the scaling goes far beyond any PC's ability to do anything. That's pretty common knowledge at this point.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Rikkan wrote:

Looking at the Alien Archive (which I'm not allowed to use for PC options, yet) there is the Kyokor a [CR 20] with +4 cha and 39 intimidate.

And it doesn't even have racial bonuses nor does it seems to be very specialized in intimidating.

20 (ranks) + 4 (cha) + 3 (class bonus) = 27

How as a PC are you ever supposed to get that additional +12 to match it?

How as a PC are you ever going to intimidate a collosal CR 20 monster whose hobbies include destroying all life on a planet by yelling at him?

But I want to intimidate the Tarrasque!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Rikkan wrote:
As a soldier my class tells me I need Str, Dex and Con. So I figured, I'd have something like 12 int and 20 Cha at high level.

You need strength OR Dex. Not both. As a melee character, you'd be wearing heavy armor, which limits the dex you'd need. As a ranged character, you don't really need strength.

Con isn't all that important in this game. You're fine with a +1 or +2. This allows you to boost your mental stats more freely when you get those *four* +2 ability Score boosts at levels 5 and 10 (in your example, you haven't hit level 15 yet).

Quote:

I take a look at the bounty hunter theme:

Jack of all trades [12th level]
Allows me to roll skills untrained and get a +4 if I roll a 20.

#1: Let's say I want to identify what I'm fighting and I meet a DM created Space Goblin King [CR14] at lvl 14.

To identify it, I need 5+ 1½ CR (DC 26). If I roll a 20 +4 (jack of all trades) +1 (int), I have a total of 25, not enough to identify an equal CR space goblin (which should be peanuts imho). Let alone know any facts about it.

Apparently the theme is useless?

Being allowed to use a skill untrained is, by itself, useful. It's not useless because you're unable to make a check that someone who's actually trained and devoted resources into it is able to make it.

The ability specifically says you're a dabbler, not a master of every skill.

Quote:

#2: I'm [lvl 20] know and put used all my skills ranks for identifying creates. Now I'm meeting the DM created Space Goblin Emperor of Goblin Kind [CR20].

But now I got the skill fully trained, I'm an expert at identifying creatures!

To identify it, I need 5+ 1½ CR (DC 35).
I got 20 ranks +3 class skill + 1 int for a total of 1d20 +24, I need to roll an 11 to recognize the Space Goblin as a Space Goblin.

That is exactly where it should be. As an expert, it's challenging to get on-the-fly detailed info about the most powerful creatures in the universe.

The DCs for most tasks scale with level, so at-level challenges are typically right around a 50% success rate.

Quote:
That seems way too high to identify an equal CR Space Goblin as a fully trained, at identifying creatures character. I can't even identify rare creatures on a natural 20 (DC 45)

An ultra rare creature who's also one of the most powerful creatures in the universe, and you're mad that it's really hard to get info on it? Sheesh!

Try having your PC do research, or have your PC actually learn about it through interactions and them publish your research.

Knowledge checks represent what your character knows right now, and if a creature is rare enough so few - if any - have ever studied it, how in the world would your PC just happen to know about it? You might get lucky with a snippet and get that nat 20 to learn basic info, but if you want to know more, you actually have to work for it.


Rikkan wrote:

#3: Well maybe soldiers have no need to identify creatures and it just doesn't work. Let me try training intimidate instead, it is a class skill after all and I invested a lot to get 20 Cha.

I'm a scary soldier with a big weapon, max ranks in intimidate and 20 Charisma at [lvl 20] and I have a Dwarven buddy who dropped his charisma to 4 for roleplaying reasons.
Should be much harder to intimidate me, a battle hardened soldier, right? DC is Intimidate skill +10.
He, a dwarf with 4 charisma, has a defense vs intimidate of 15+ 1½ CR (DC 45).
Me, I got 20 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 5 (20 Cha) = 28 Intimidate
28 + 10 is 38, 7 short of the 45 everybody gets.

Ok, so first off, let's use the intimidate rules and CR rules correctly.

This dwarf buddy of yours, is he a CR 20 NPC (one of the most powerful NPCs in the game, one capable of taking on *four* level 20 PCs at once and still be a threat), or is he a level 20 PC?

If he's a CR 20 NPC, you'd need three other "buddies" to be able to stand up to him. And what's with the whole "dropping his cha to 4 for roleplaying reasons" thing? This makes it sound like it's a fellow PC/Player, not an enemy the DM made. And an enemy *that* powerful isn't someone who will be intimidated easily. You'd need some special circumstances which would grants extra bonuses, and maybe a couple of assists from allies. But hell, even you by yourself still has a 20% chance!

But if it's a PC, then that's a different story! Now the DC is simply 10 + your intimidate bonus. For you, that's DC 38, while your dwarf buddy it's DC 31. Not only that, but he's got a 20% chance to intimidate you, while you've got a 90% chance to intimidate him, simply due to the difference in charisma scores.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rikkan wrote:

I take a look at the bounty hunter theme:

Jack of all trades [12th level]
Allows me to roll skills untrained and get a +4 if I roll a 20.

#1: Let's say I want to identify what I'm fighting and I meet a DM created Space Goblin King [CR14] at lvl 14.

To identify it, I need 5+ 1½ CR (DC 26). If I roll a 20 +4 (jack of all trades) +1 (int), I have a total of 25, not enough to identify an equal CR space goblin (which should be peanuts imho). Let alone know any facts about it.

Apparently the theme is useless?

Although I agree it isn’t very useful for in combat knowledge skills, it is still very useful especially for low skill point characters. You use it to Aid Another on a skill so someone else can succeed at those hard checks.

Just as you might appreciate that Technomancer boosting your gun damage or providing harrying fire, they might appreciate you giving a boost to a hard Engineering or Computers check.

I am not saying the DCs scale correctly, just that there are better ways to use that power or the more restrictive one from Ace Pilot.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
How as a PC are you ever going to intimidate a collosal CR 20 monster whose hobbies include destroying all life on a planet by yelling at him?

Like this. :D


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ravingdork wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
How as a PC are you ever going to intimidate a collosal CR 20 monster whose hobbies include destroying all life on a planet by yelling at him?
Like this. :D

I'm pretty sure he took 20 on that one


Rikkan wrote:
That seems way too high to identify an equal CR Space Goblin

You've pretty much no investment other than the skill ranks and a +1 int mod at twenty is pretty anemic given how attributes work in Starfinder, even still you're succeeding nearly half the time. That seems pretty reasonable. A more specialized character can easily bump that up to a 60 or 70% chance to succeed.

And this is against a CR appropriate target. How easy should it be to succeed at checks against enemies tuned specifically for your level?

Some of the skill checks could definitely use some adjustment, but this idea that it should be trivial to pass checks against CR appropriate enemies is also pretty odd.

Liberty's Edge

The chart intentionally scales so that you need to put investment into a skill to remain relevant at it as levels rise. Investment takes the form of skill ranks, but also adding points to an Ability and, if you lack a Class bonus in the skill, the Skill Focus Feat.

Even with all that, you do indeed fall behind those with Insight bonuses (who are sorta assumed) a bit at very high levels (you fall one point behind at 11th, another at 15th, and another at 19th).

11th level, however, is also when a Soldier becomes unambiguously better than any Class with a scaling +1 to +6 bonus in a skill at combat, and reigns supreme in that arena from then on.

Community / Forums / Starfinder / Starfinder General Discussion / Skill DCs scaling too fast? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Starfinder General Discussion