I am very disturbed to hear the allegations about Paizo these days


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Liberty's Edge

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Gark the Goblin wrote:
Not a fan of the "we have to know every detail in order to believe a victim" line of thinking

To elaborate a bit more on this (since it's topical now): Sometimes it really seems like the desire for receipts or video or whatever is voyeuristic. We don't believe the victim's description of how the harasser(s) made them feel until we ourselves feel it, for just a few moments. It's not necessarily victim blaming(?) but isn't supportive of victims at all.


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I almost never post here (or anywhere for that matter), but this topic has made me delurk.

I absolutely believe Jessica Price and Robert Brookes.

And what they say about Mentzer and Webb is damning enough. But there is another thing that I have to speak up about:

That a volunteer was silenced from reporting the abuse or harassment they suffered while participating as a volunteer because they were under NDA.

That is absolutely not what NDAs are for. An NDA exists to protect trade secrets and business practices, not to silence victims. If terrible anti-harassment policies are a trade secret or business practice that Paizo has to protect itself from with an NDA, then Paizo is not the publisher I thought they were and are unworthy of our support, monetarily or as volunteers.

I am not a Paizo volunteer. I do run games for another publisher and I would quit in an instant if I ever heard they threatened a victim in this manner. I would encourage any of Paizo's volunteers to stop volunteering until Paizo investigates the allegations and unequivocally states that their volunteer NDA will not be used to silence victims.

Paizo, and all publishers in this industry would do well to remember that they cannot put on successful events without the legions of fan volunteers who sacrifice their time for the love of the game. No amount of swag or con or hotel reimbursement is worth putting their safety or their ability to report harassment and abuse on the line.

Please, Paizo, get in front of this, do the right thing.

Sovereign Court

In terms of libel, Paizo may have to delete this whole thread on Monday morning because knowingly hosting an accusation might be seen as supporting/making that accusation.

I am not a twitter person and find it incredibly difficult to read and navigate. As such, I’ve probably got about a third of the story.

Are there any places where this has been spelt out clearly, blogs or something like that?


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With regards to Bill Webb, I have attended his games every PaizoCon for the past 3-5 years. I have often shown up early, in fact, as I am generally a punctual person. He has a reputation. His manner is consistent with that presented by the accounts. I will not be attending his game next year—and if I learn he is going to be invited again, I will not be attending PaizoCon, either.

I did not know Jessica Price had left Paizo, and I am upset and horrified at all of this. I believe those who have come forward.

Paizo has been, in many ways, my second home growing up. I don't say that figuratively—I've been here since I was a kid, and it has had an enormous influence on me. It provided a social outlet when I was incapable of functioning in-person. It's because of Paizo's community that I got into writing, into tabletop games. The few close non-familial friendships I have these days are thanks to Paizo. I think I have fallen into the habit of romanticizing Paizo, even when I encountered their minor missteps—certain in the belief that, aside from a few bad apples, the company was progressive and caring towards its marginalized employees.

I am not sure I will be comfortable making purchases from this company anymore. I know there are good people working in Paizo, but that this happened indicates that there are not enough—or that those with good intentions are, like Jessica Price, pushed into silence.

I would like to see Paizo step up to the plate and address these concerns, but to be honest, it shouldn't require a community controversy to ensure accountability. I expected better.

Regarding Libel:
While I am not a lawyer, a fun fact about "libel": It is incredibly difficult to prosecute in the United States, essentially requiring proof that the accusations cannot be true. Only rich celebrities can afford the sort of flippant efforts to prosecute it that people are discussing here. It's arguably a bit of a failing in our legal system, but it's also a good reason not to worry. Paizo isn't in legal danger here.


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Coz wrote:

I almost never post here (or anywhere for that matter), but this topic has made me delurk.

I absolutely believe Jessica Price and Robert Brookes.

And what they say about Mentzer and Webb is damning enough. But there is another thing that I have to speak up about:

That a volunteer was silenced from reporting the abuse or harassment they suffered while participating as a volunteer because they were under NDA.

That is absolutely not what NDAs are for. An NDA exists to protect trade secrets and business practices, not to silence victims. If terrible anti-harassment policies are a trade secret or business practice that Paizo has to protect itself from with an NDA, then Paizo is not the publisher I thought they were and are unworthy of our support, monetarily or as volunteers.

And while Paizo might be reluctant to comment on these incident before some further internal investigation, it would be useful for them in public to clarify precisely this - that their NDAs are not intended to prevent victims of harassment from speaking about their experiences, and that they won't pursue actions (legal or otherwise) against those who do speak out.


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Oh, and I will add in response to those saying, "It's bad taste to discuss something like this":

It's bad taste to not. As consumers—people who give the corporation our money—this is absolutely our business. Paizo is not obligated to answer us, but how they handle this controversy will have a major impact on whether or not I remain a Paizo customer and, indeed, a Paizonian poster. Much as I love many on these forums, I feel there is an ethical question regarding the benefit Paizo receives from an active community, and whether or not a true boycott requires abstention not just from their products, but from their forums as well. This is a very serious set of decisions for me.

I would like to hear Paizo's response, or, at the very least, see obvious signs of recognition and impending reform. Failing that, I am not sure I want to do anything more that helps Paizo's business and brand.

We kobolds are patient creatures. We're also pretty Lawful. We've got standards.

Liberty's Edge

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Robert Brookes wrote:
That's a misrepresentation of what happened.

It was a theory based on what evidence I had (which may well not be everything, but was everything I could find that was directly linked here...I seldom used Twitter and could've missed something, though), not anything intentional. That said...

Robert Brookes wrote:
There were no immediate executives available. But both Erik and Lisa got involved at the end of the day. I'm not sure whether you haven't read everything or misread them but they got involved. An executive decision-maker ultimately made the choice chose not to ban Bill.

Thanks for the clarification. That's very unfortunate and worrisome.

Robert Brookes wrote:
Also because I want to be fair on this, Paizo employees are actively working to make better anti-harassment procedures to have in place at the next Paizocon. I haven't heard anything since GenCon about it, but I did hear from people at Paizo that I trust and respect that this is something they're trying to prevent from happening again and I believe them. How that actually shakes out at the end of the day is something I'm eager to see, because what happened at Paizocon this year was horrifying and left me with no confidence that the convention is safe for me to recommend to my own colleagues, friends, and freelancers.

I hope this shakes out well...but the situation is still a very serious matter it sounds like they aren't responding to strongly enough, I must agree.


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So, right after the claims regarding Bill Webb sexually harassing women and then injuring a Paizo employee at PaizoCon break, what does Frog God Games post on their Facebook?

This.

For those who can't see it, it's them joking about the consequences of having "just one more drink" with Bill Webb at any convention and a picture of two adventurers carrying an unconscious third. That's their response to their CEO being accused of sexual harassment and physically injuring somebody.

Well, I think that pretty solidly tells us where that company stands here.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Of course, threads like these always happen on Saturdays.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Firstly, I believe Jessica and Robert. I could be wrong, but Robert has never said or done anything that I am aware of to dispute his words (nor have any involved parties denounced him in any way), and I’m on record as saying that Jessica makes me uncomfortable in a “makes me realise that I could be part of the problem” way.

Another thing I believe, though, is that Jessica left Paizo under a cloud. Why do I think this? Lots of little things, but the big one was that it was sudden, no warning, nobody talked about it (neither her nor Paizo). Compare that to Sutter’s send-off. And yes, that could have been Jessica’s choice, but to not mention it anywhere herself? That’s a bit odd and out of character.

The most important thing, though, is that Paizo aren’t going to discuss employment and/or disciplinary decisions in a public forum, which puts the entire Jessica Price discussion off-limits for them.

I expect this thread to be at the least locked (and more likely completely gone) on Monday (possibly sooner), and I understand Paizo wanting to do that, but I will publicly ask, here and now, that Paizo take the time as soon as possible to address the concerns that they have inadequate processes in place to deal with harassment at events they host (both at the time and to prevent future occurrences). A company has a responsibility to protect its staff, and its customers (in that order). All other relationships are secondary to those. I would like to know what Paizo are doing to cement that for future endeavours.


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Here's a short piece about one person's severing of ties with Frank Mentzer.

Sovereign Court

Thanks for the libel info. I think it’s a bit easier here in the UK.

My impression is that Paizo have been a positive force in terms of what makes it into print.

They have also shown a willingness to change and improve.

It will be interesting to hear their ‘inclusive gaming’ panel at the next paizocon.


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GeraintElberion wrote:
My impression is that Paizo have been a positive force in terms of what makes it into print.

Well, mostly. There's a fixation with pulp fiction among many of Paizo's writers that has bled into some s&%#ty territory on occasion, but that's neither here nor there, exactly.


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'Paizo is not obligated to answer us, but how they handle this controversy will have a major impact on whether or not I remain a Paizo customer'
This. I've been supporting Paizo since the 3.5 Dungeon days and I'm a Charter AP subscriber; but this may end my days as a Paizo customer.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Thanks for the libel info. I think it’s a bit easier here in the UK.

It's a lot easier here in the UK due to our appallingly outdated libel laws. We're an international embarrassment on that front for a reason.


I have opinions about the libel laws in the US, but let's avoid getting off-track.


{Placeholder}


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I believe Jessica. I believe Robert.

I am very disturbed by Paizo's response here. I expect there to be some public response that explains why Jessica was pressured to stay silent, and what they are doing to improve their response to issues like these. Because the problem of sexual harassment and sexual assault is not going away, and it will happen again.

Paizo strikes me as having been completely unprepared for what happened. Of course, I don't know for sure, but that is how it feels and if it's true then there is absolutely no excuse for that. None.

I am willing to give them a chance to fix this. Maybe they ignored the issue because they didn't think it could happen to them. Maybe they were threatened with legal action somewhere and got scared. Whatever the excuse is, they need to acknowledge it, apologize, and demonstrate a commitment to do better.

Kryzbyn wrote:

I think this thread is in incredibly poor taste on these boards.

You've now put Paizo in a position where any kind of moderation of this thread or similar threads will look like some kind of culpability in an already crappy situation, regardless of who is "right" here.

You are 100% wrong. When it comes to sexual harassment and assault, silence is the enemy. This is a big problem and it will not go away by ignoring it.

It's not enough to be a "nice person" who doesn't harass or assault someone. You don't get a medal for not being a sexual predator. To be part of the solution, you have to stop other people from being part of the problem.


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These allegations are extremely disturbing. Anyone advising a victim to NOT involve the police (like was reported at paizocon) is encouraging this type of predatory behavior.

I won't be purchasing any more Paizo products until I see the company address this properly.


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http://www.jimchines.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Harassment.jpg


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"The only way this changes is people refusing to protect people who harass, threaten, and assault, and the only way that happens is if the victims can talk publicly about their experiences."


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Catulle wrote:
http://www.jimchines.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Harassment.jpg

Linkified


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The current attitude seems to be that all allegations are true, the only way for the accused to react that doesn't make things worse is to admit and apologize, being accused means someone is a worthless human being (if that), shunning someone who has been accused makes you complicit, and claiming "innocent until proven guilty" is a microaggression.

I thought America had learnt from the days of random accusations and published lists of suspected communists.

Guess not.


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I believe Jessica and Robert. I'm particularly disappointed to see Frog God Games' joking response on Facebook to Bill's conduct. I think an apology and owning what happened would be the honourable response, not attempts at humour. I have cancelled my Rappan Athuk maps Kickstarter pledge and won't be supporting FGG or Paizo going forward unless things change, and change drastically. Fast.


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Sissyl wrote:

The current attitude seems to be that all allegations are true, the only way for the accused to react that doesn't make things worse is to admit and apologize, being accused means someone is a worthless human being (if that), shunning someone who has been accused makes you complicit, and claiming "innocent until proven guilty" is a microaggression.

I thought America had learnt from the days of random accusations and published lists of suspected communists.

Guess not.

"Innocent until proven guilty" with regards to harassment and worse crimes is one of those specious defenses that just doesn't hold up. It paralyzes us with a hunger for more details from victims, and shames those victims if all they can present is their honest word. It's an excuse to stand by and do nothing because a victim wasn't prescient enough to videotape their own harassment.

Come up with a cogent reason why a victim would lie—a cogent reason to disbelieve them when 99% of these accounts turn out to be true—and we'll talk, Sissyl. Until then, save the Red Scare scaremongering for where it's relevant.

I mean, Jiminy Christmas, Sissyl, victims risk torpedoing every professional contact they have to come forward, and you think they're doing this for, what, attention? Do you mistrust the "SJWs" that much?


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Sissyl wrote:

The current attitude seems to be that all allegations are true, the only way for the accused to react that doesn't make things worse is to admit and apologize, being accused means someone is a worthless human being (if that), shunning someone who has been accused makes you complicit, and claiming "innocent until proven guilty" is a microaggression.

I thought America had learnt from the days of random accusations and published lists of suspected communists.

Guess not.

The problem with looking at the incidents like this is that the alleged perpetrators haven't even bothered to deny what happened - instead they deny that what they did was anything worthy of censure. Indeed, some of them are even joking about it.

So this doesn't appear to be a "witch hunt". Instead it has become apparent that some of thr most prominent members of our hobby cannot tell right from wrong.

Scarab Sages

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Something is very, very wrong here....

I can say this much:

1) I don't know the details about this particular scandal here, nor do I even recognize the names of anyone involved, but from what I've seen on this thread, it seems open-and-shut that a couple of people were awful, should be appropriately punished, and Paizo NEEDS to clear up this "coverup" story.

2) The acute story here is (or should be) simple, but it appears to already be channeling the diabolic spirit of something that bears most the symptoms of a society-wide moral panic. (here's a bonus article on that topic from 3 years ago, which sounds about right regarding how long this abrupt beat change in political discourse has been going on). DON'T GET SUCKED IN. RPG geeks, of all people, should know better.

Liberty's Edge

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As a father to a little girl, I am horrified at the thought she may face this kind of situation in the future. All I can do is show her how decent people act and encourage her to stand up for herself and others when she sees injustice.

As a father to a little boy, I am scared that he might be on the receiving end of accusations. All I can do is show him how decent people act, discourage him to from ever being in a situation where someone could feel threatened by his actions, and encourage him to stand up for others when he sees injustice.

As a consumer, I thank Jessica and Robert for coming forward. This is a topic that needs to be discussed. Behavior as described is unacceptable.

As a lawyer (albeit not in employment or personal injury), I would remind people that we have laws and burdens of proof for a reason. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to campaign for a change in laws, but we are not judge, jury, and executioner. You are of course free to "vote" with your money.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Sissyl wrote:

The current attitude seems to be that all allegations are true, the only way for the accused to react that doesn't make things worse is to admit and apologize, being accused means someone is a worthless human being (if that), shunning someone who has been accused makes you complicit, and claiming "innocent until proven guilty" is a microaggression.

I thought America had learnt from the days of random accusations and published lists of suspected communists.

Guess not.

"Innocent until proven guilty" with regards to harassment and worse crimes is one of those specious defenses that just doesn't hold up. It paralyzes us with a hunger for more details from victims, and shames those victims if all they can present is their honest word. It's an excuse to stand by and do nothing because a victim wasn't prescient enough to videotape their own harassment.

Come up with a cogent reason why a victim would lie—a cogent reason to disbelieve them when 99% of these accounts turn out to be true—and we'll talk, Sissyl. Until then, save the Red Scare scaremongering for where it's relevant.

I mean, Jiminy Christmas, Sissyl, victims risk torpedoing every professional contact they have to come forward, and you think they're doing this for, what, attention? Do you mistrust the "SJWs" that much?

Because the presumption of innocence is and has been the corner-stone of any enlightened juridical system and society, and has been so since the early Roman Republic and from that moment forward. Only in the darkest reaches of the medieval era did we fall back into the presumption of the inherent guilt of accused.

Scarab Sages

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Forgottenprince wrote:

As a father to a little girl, I am horrified at the thought she may face this kind of situation in the future. All I can do is show her how decent people act and encourage her to stand up for herself and others when she sees injustice.

As a father to a little boy, I am scared that he might be on the receiving end of accusations. All I can do is show him how decent people act, discourage him to from ever being in a situation where someone could feel threatened by his actions, and encourage him to stand up for others when he sees injustice.

Forgive me, but I can't help but see a double-standard in these two paragraphs - one that reinforces the "damsels in distress VS demonic males" narrative.

If you don't think this is a two-way street, think again - after all, I've only ever witnessed sexual harassment once in all my life, and that was when it was done to ME.


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I would have respected the original poster a lot more if he(or she) waited till Monday to post this.


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Evidence and witnesses exist to corroborate the acts took place. The accused in these specific cases don't even deny they committed the acts; the accused only maintain that their acts weren't wrong while viciously threatening and attempting to gaslight their victims.

So no, this isn't a "witchhunt" or a "moral panic" or a new "McCathyism." No, presumption of innocence doesn't apply when the perpetrators admit they committed the acts.

Scarab Sages

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

So no, this isn't a "witchhunt" or a "moral panic" or a new "McCathyism."

The lone incident? No, doesn't seem like it - but it's very unfortunately-timed, as it is appearing against the backdrop of a vastly larger hivemind manifestation that appears to be just that.


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

So no, this isn't a "witchhunt" or a "moral panic" or a new "McCathyism."

The lone incident? No, doesn't seem like it - but it's very unfortunately-timed, as it is appearing against the backdrop of a larger hivemind-attack that appears to be just that.

Please explain your math for determining when exactly is the appropriate time for victims to come forward.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:


Forgive me, but I can't help but see a double-standard in these two paragraphs - one that reinforces the "damsels in distress VS demonic males" narrative.

If you don't think this is a two-way street, think again - after all, I've only ever witnessed sexual harassment once in all my life, and that was when it was done to ME.

I can see why you would read it that way. But as someone who knows the little girl and little boy in question, I can assure you that she is (currently) of the gentle nature. While possible, I do not forsee her being a "demonic female."

Similarly, I see no indication my son will fail to stand up for himself. He has no problem with letting people know he objeccts to what they do.

Nonetheless, you raise a very valid point. Harassment knows no gender limits. Whether its males harassing females, females harassing males, same gender harassment, or any other combination, it is all unacceptable.

Scarab Sages

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Please explain your math for determining when exactly is the appropriate time for victims to come forward.

When did I say anything about that?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It is uncertain if the op had the knowledge prior to a given point, and waiting during situations of concern cause situations to be forgotten in this modern digital age.

And forgetting a situation is worse than ignoring it, because the concern is still there, but instead of willful avoidance, it's a thing that should be addressed but is not being so.

Assessing 'respect' levels on when a person has the resources available to disseminate information is an inherently flawed dynamic.


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

So no, this isn't a "witchhunt" or a "moral panic" or a new "McCathyism."

The lone incident? No, doesn't seem like it - but it's very unfortunately-timed, as it is appearing against the backdrop of a vastly larger hivemind manifestation that appears to be just that.

Are you seriously suggesting that men and women coming forwards to report assault, harassment and abuse in varied industries is a 'hivemind manifestation' And that it's somehow unfortunately-timed with regard to RPGs and Paizo?

I mean, Robert reported the harassment and assault incident back in July.

He reported the harassment in the Pathfinder Society on the 12th of October.

It's only now, when added to Jessica Price's revelation, that this is getting traction.

Almost as if these things happen all the time, but it takes some light being shone to make people take notice of them.

The Exchange

So far I'm seeing only two incidents. Lots of talk about just two.

Jessica talking about Mentzer, which she has plenty of proof to show about his completely innapropriate behaviour and abuse of power in trying to shut her down.

Nothing she has shown has shone light on Paizo's involvement. She has made a claim they asked her not to air the grievance though.

The second one is an incident involving a guy at Paizo Con. Again we have only persons account on that, though I gather there were a number of witnesses and it sounds like it's likely to go to the police (charges getting laid I'm thinking).

Paizo's involvement here seems to be one of not sever enough response, at least in the eyes of the person who reported it.

What we don't know yet - what was officially told to Jessica by Paizo. I have no reason to doubt her, but as yet nothing's been presented to back that claim (that I have seen on this thread).

- he final decision by Paizo on Frog God games involvement with them. If I'm reading correctly the decision on the day was not to boot him. I'm wondering who's responsibility it was on the day to call police about the injury/assault. There were any number of people who witnessed it, including the man who reported it who should have made the call there and then. Or security for the building/event that was being run.

If it turns out Paizo applied pressure to prevent the reporting of an assault then that's going to be more serious than just bad press.

If it also,turns out they officially applied pressure to cover up harassment at their workplace then that's also gong to lead to more than bad press.

My questions, purely in regards to Paizo's involvement, are.

- have they refused to make a decision on Bill until after some form of official investigation? If charges are in fact being laid it would be pertinent to wait until the outcome of that is settl d before they make a move as permanent as bannng someone. I'd personally be booting someone so unprofessional as to get intoxicated enough to get into an affray at a con, but I don't run cons)

- was their discussion with Jessica to do with the fact the harassment she received occurred outside of the work environment, and as such had no place to be aired in the work environment publically. As in, don't drop this into the forums, or it will drag the business into something not business related.

It certainly sounds like both men are guilty of harassment (all evidence supports this), I'm just not clear on how complicit Paizo is at this stage.

And finally, screen shot everything. Deleting Facebook and twitter posts is very easy to do, but removing someone else's screenshots of those posts is near impossible.

We learned that here locally when a person tried defaming one of the Local gaming stores. When the person was warned legal action would follow suddenly all the posts disappeared from Facebook and websites. But the screenshots collected to that date are still fully saved if it ever flares up again.


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Wrath wrote:

So far I'm seeing only two incidents. Lots of talk about just two.

https://twitter.com/Sphynxian/status/918577166190895106

Quote:


So someone came forward to me today about something I really can't even begin to fathom. Yes, it's about Paizo again, and it's about abuse.

A volunteer organizer for Pathfinder Societt, under a volunteer NDA, co fidentially disclosed to me that they submitted a well-documented case of abuse from another PFS volunteer. The result of that filing was allowing the abuser to remain working, but also promoting the victim which in turn forced them to WORK WITH THEIR ABUSER. If that doesn't set your hair on fire, I'm sort of only just getting started.

So this UNPAID VOLUNTEER continued to be abused by the same person. Reports to PFS Organized Play Coordination went nowhere and then...

The victim was politely informed that all of their interactions should be considered under the volunteer NDA and that they are not permitted to discuss the abuse. So not only is the abuse an unresolved issue, the abuser remained unpunished and the victim silenced.

<snipped swearing comment>

Worse is that this (obviously) isn't an isolated issue. I've heard reports of similar situations from players and volunteers in the past.

But no one is willing to discuss the problem or properly address it.

And just by bringing this up and showing my disappointment in the organizational shortcomings, I risk my own career by "rocking th boat."

Before anyone asks, I will not identify the parties involved because I am concerned for the victim's identity and safety and any backlash.


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Victor Ravenport wrote:


Because the presumption of innocence is and has been the corner-stone of any enlightened juridical system and society, and has been so since the early Roman Republic and from that moment forward. Only in the darkest reaches of the medieval era did we fall back into the presumption of the inherent guilt of accused.

This is not a judicial trial, and none of us are in a courtroom. And in fact, most cases of sexual harassment never get this far because the victims are pressured to keep quiet.

We've heard the statements of the victims and witnesses, and I believe we should take their statements seriously. Meanwhile, the other side has made no comment, or joked about the incidents without bothering to do something fiendishly difficult like an outright denial.

Scarab Sages

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Ventnor wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Halek wrote:
But if you dont beleive the victim you are victim blaming. Dont you know the sjw creed?

Not believing a victim is pretty much the definition of victim blaming. Or did you mean to write "accuser"?

Also, how is "social justice warrior" disparaging?

Man people trip me out.

Some folk think that basic decency is too much to ask from their fellow humans.

Anyone who unironically throws out the term sjw is probably not worth listening to.

Based on his other posts, I'm pretty sure he's just a troll.

Scarab Sages

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CPEvilref wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that men and women coming forwards to report assault, harassment and abuse in varied industries is a 'hivemind manifestation' And that it's somehow unfortunately-timed with regard to RPGs and Paizo?

I mean, Robert reported the harassment and assault incident back in July.

He reported the harassment in the Pathfinder Society on the 12th of October.

It's only now, when added to Jessica Price's revelation, that this is getting traction.

Almost as if these things happen all the time, but it takes some light being shone to make people take notice of them.

I claim no expertise on the local 'trees' in this matter - however, as a student of history and psychology, and as a lifelong observer of Humanity from the perspective of an outsider, I do have enough familiarity with the 'forest' to be concerned by this very sudden flip from something that's somehow gone from an issue nobody particularly worries about, to an issue that's outright monopolizing public discourse. Compare that to, say, the state of environment, which is an unprecedented crisis of posing unprecedented danger on an unprecedented scale - yet I've NEVER seen it get this kind of wall-to-wall coverage.


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:


I claim no expertise on the local 'trees' in this matter - however, as a student of history and psychology, and as a lifelong observer of Humanity from the perspective of an outsider, I do have enough familiarity with the 'forest' to be concerned by this very sudden flip from something that's somehow gone from an issue nobody particularly worries about to an issue that's outright monopolizing public discourse.

You're genuinely saying that sexual harassment, abuse and assault was something 'nobody particularly worries about' and you're concerned that people are now worried about it?

Err...what?


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
I claim no expertise on the local 'trees' in this matter - however, as a student of history and psychology, and as a lifelong observer of Humanity from the perspective of an outsider, I do have enough familiarity with the 'forest' to be concerned by this very sudden flip from something that's somehow gone from an issue nobody particularly worries about to an issue that's outright monopolizing public discourse.

You're a faster digger than a quickened create pit spell.

Edit: Nice of you to add this bit after you'd already been replied to, BTW:

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Compare that to, say, the state of environment, which is an unprecedented crisis of posing unprecedented danger on an unprecedented scale - yet I've NEVER seen it get this kind of wall-to-wall coverage.

1) Most of us can be concerned by more than one threat/danger at a time, and b) thanks for the attempt at minimizing the real pain and damage done to victims of harassment and abuse.

The Exchange

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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
CPEvilref wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that men and women coming forwards to report assault, harassment and abuse in varied industries is a 'hivemind manifestation' And that it's somehow unfortunately-timed with regard to RPGs and Paizo?

I mean, Robert reported the harassment and assault incident back in July.

He reported the harassment in the Pathfinder Society on the 12th of October.

It's only now, when added to Jessica Price's revelation, that this is getting traction.

Almost as if these things happen all the time, but it takes some light being shone to make people take notice of them.

I claim no expertise on the local 'trees' in this matter - however, as a student of history and psychology, and as a lifelong observer of Humanity from the perspective of an outsider, I do have enough familiarity with the 'forest' to be concerned by this very sudden flip from something that's somehow gone from an issue nobody particularly worries about to an issue that's outright monopolizing public discourse.

You're 100% wrong on the statement "nobody particularly worries about".

It's just very often that worry is swept away by those with authority to bury the story or apply pressure to ensure the claimant is discredited.

The very reason it's snowballed is because a very public and powerful media outlet finally decided to be brave enough to report and face up to the huge pressure against them.

Their gamble paid off, which shows just how many people are concerned and affected by this!

The Exchange

CPEvilref wrote:
Wrath wrote:

So far I'm seeing only two incidents. Lots of talk about just two.

https://twitter.com/Sphynxian/status/918577166190895106

Quote:


So someone came forward to me today about something I really can't even begin to fathom. Yes, it's about Paizo again, and it's about abuse.

A volunteer organizer for Pathfinder Societt, under a volunteer NDA, co fidentially disclosed to me that they submitted a well-documented case of abuse from another PFS volunteer. The result of that filing was allowing the abuser to remain working, but also promoting the victim which in turn forced them to WORK WITH THEIR ABUSER. If that doesn't set your hair on fire, I'm sort of only just getting started.

So this UNPAID VOLUNTEER continued to be abused by the same person. Reports to PFS Organized Play Coordination went nowhere and then...

The victim was politely informed that all of their interactions should be considered under the volunteer NDA and that they are not permitted to discuss the abuse. So not only is the abuse an unresolved issue, the abuser remained unpunished and the victim silenced.

<snipped swearing comment>

Worse is that this (obviously) isn't an isolated issue. I've heard reports of similar situations from players and volunteers in the past.

But no one is willing to discuss the problem or properly address it.

And just by bringing this up and showing my disappointment in the organizational shortcomings, I risk my own career by "rocking th boat."

Before anyone asks, I will not identify the parties involved because I am concerned for the victim's identity and safety and any backlash.

And this makes the evidence pile up swing my decision.

Using an NDA as a means of pressure to prevent reporting of harassment and abuse is completely Unacceptable, and likely illegal.

This is now the point where all of these people who've been affected by this situation need to come forward with their cases.


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So far, I have seen no PROOF. Some on here are siding with the supposed victim and some are siding against her, but in the end, where is the PROOF the person did anything wrong? The nice thing with our justice system is that you actually have to prove someone committed a crime. It is the very reason Cosby got cleared. People waited too long until there was no longer any proof. So how could Jessica prove her claim? Well, she apparently did not record it, so there goes that idea. Apparently no one else is coming forward making similar claims, so that is no help. Did anyone witness it? No? Well, I guess she needs to actually make a criminal complaint. Has she? No? Then no crime was committed. That is the simple facts here.

I am not saying the dude isn't a sleaze, he very well might be. Then again, the girl might very well be trying to blackmail her way to some cash in exchange for shutting up. We simply do not know at this point.

I was a prison guard for almost 13 years. I unfortunately saw far to many people accused of rape that did not commit the crime they were accused of. Most of them involved either wives that were caught by their husbands cheating and then claiming rape OR two people getting drunk and one person regretting her drunken decision the next day. Then there was the cases of victims stories changing multiple times before AND during the trial. So at the very least this man deserves his time in court. Failing that, he is innocent.

As for NDAs, they can not stop anyone from making a criminal complaint. The law does not allow for that. Sorry to the conspiracy theorists out there, but there you go.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

*smells the ashes*


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I intend to wait to see what Paizo says about this before I make my decisions.

I have read, cant remember on which link, that Paizo is intentionally not inviting the guy from Frog God Games to any cons in the future.

I feel that there is lots of damning evidence against perpetrators, but I am unsure as to how much blame can be given to Paizo in the mentioned situations.

We do not know specifics in these situations.
If I read Robert's tweets right, the Paizocon fight was resolved in accordance with the wishes of the victim.
We don't know what exactly was said with regards to the Price incident, and they may have been saying that it would be best to deal with internally rather than putting in on social media or the like.
The NDA volunteer issue, we again don't know exactly what was said and who it was said by and there might be a miscommunication.

I am not saying we shouldn't treat these issues seriously, but I personally would like to get more information before I make my decision.
By all accounts, previous to me hearing about this, Paizo is absolutely stellar when it comes to inclusivity and generally being good people.

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