Multiweapon Fighting would come into play if the eidolon has weapon proficiency. It could then wield six (probably identical) light weapons. One hand would be primary, and the others would be secondary, but all would take a flat -2 penalty if it has the Multiweapon Fighting feat. It would then get two attacks with its claws as natural weapons, taking a -5 penalty on each, because it doesn't have the Multiattack feat. Natural weapons are considered secondary attacks when also wielding weapons.
Alternatively, it could wield 8 light weapons, and skip the natural attacks altogether.
Keep in mind that it would also take a -4 penalty on all weapon attacks (in addition to the -2) for any weapon it wields without the requisite weapon proficiency.
If it has Improved Unarmed Strike, that counts as proficiency with fists, but it seems like a waste unless it's wearing an Amulet of Mighty Fists. (The AoMF would affect both the unarmed and natural attacks.)
Now, if it has Multiattack, that's different. That feat specifically affects natural weapons. If the natural attacks are secondary (as mentioned above), they would take a -2 penalty. However, with only two natural attacks (claws), it doesn't get Multiattack for free.
I think this would be the result:
The eidilon would get 6 attacks with his fists, all at -4; if he added natural weapon attacks as secondary, they would be at -9 (the -5 for attacking with natural attacks and weapons but you would still include the -4 for multiweapon fighting).
The Feat the op is talking about is a monster feat:
Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
This replaces two-weapon fighting for those with more than one arm.
Since the eidolon has claws, i am not sure if he can make unarmed strikes with those arms instead (unless they are retractable).
That is not how it works for two-weapon fighting. Why would it work that way for multi-weapon fighting? In other words, I am pretty sure that the natural attacks do not take a -4 + -5.I think this would be the result:
The eidilon would get 6 attacks with his fists, all at -4; if he added natural weapon attacks as secondary, they would be at -9 (the -5 for attacking with natural attacks and weapons but you would still include the -4 for multiweapon fighting).
I concur. First, unarmed attacks (not to be confused with monk unarmed strikes in a flurry of blows) are treated as light weapons in most cases, meaning the final penalty would be -2 not -4. Second, the penalties on natural claw attacks do not fall under the purview of Multiweapon Fighting in any way. They have their own specific penalties for being secondary natural attacks.
Like I said, I think this would be the result; I have never had anyone use multi-weapon fighting and secondary natural attacks in the same round at any table I have played at. Nor two-weapon fighting and secondary natural attacks thinking about it.
So, it would be 6 punches at -2, one of which does full strength bonus damage, 5 of which do half strength bonus damage and 2 secondary attacks at -5, each of which do half strength bonus damage. Correct?
Like I said, I think this would be the result; I have never had anyone use multi-weapon fighting and secondary natural attacks in the same round at any table I have played at. Nor two-weapon fighting and secondary natural attacks thinking about it.
I've dealt with this before, both as a GM (managing monsters) and as a player. So I put in my research. ^_^
So, it would be 6 punches at -2, one of which does full strength bonus damage, 5 of which do half strength bonus damage and 2 secondary attacks at -5, each of which do half strength bonus damage. Correct?
Yep.
Also, reading the difference between eidilons, the unchained summoner eidilon would not be able to do this since all weapon attacks count against their maximum attacks and they max out at 7? Since it includes iterative attacks from BAB I would think two-weapon (or multi-weapon) fighting additional attacks would also count?
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
Limbs (Ex): An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon's base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.
Had to look this one up, since I never actually played a Summoner. (Built one once as a backup character that I never needed.)
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).
"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
Emphasis confirms. It's a funny little loophole.
Wouldn't it be 6 attacks at -4? Also, what if the improved unarmed strike came from taking one level of monk? You don't use flurry, but it would give you full strength damage on all the attacks, correct?So, it would be 6 punches at -2, one of which does full strength bonus damage, 5 of which do half strength bonus damage and 2 secondary attacks at -5, each of which do half strength bonus damage. Correct?Yep.
No and no. The monk gets full damage on unarmed strikes because he uses Flurry of Blows, which has its own set of rules and negates what you're trying to accomplish.
For Yaba, the Unchained summoner eidilon reads:
Unchained summoner:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with weapons, including those granted by a high base attack bonus, are counted against this maximum.
For Yaba, the Unchained summoner eidilon reads:
Unchained summoner:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with weapons, including those granted by a high base attack bonus, are counted against this maximum.
Ah, I see. Special case. I was using the standard summoner eidolon text from the Advanced Players Guide.
No and no. The monk gets full damage on unarmed strikes because he uses Flurry of Blows, which has its own set of rules and negates what you're trying to accomplish.Wouldn't it be 6 attacks at -4? Also, what if the improved unarmed strike came from taking one level of monk? You don't use flurry, but it would give you full strength damage on all the attacks, correct?So, it would be 6 punches at -2, one of which does full strength bonus damage, 5 of which do half strength bonus damage and 2 secondary attacks at -5, each of which do half strength bonus damage. Correct?Yep.Unarmed Strike says, in part: "At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
Now the question is whether the Monk has a special version of Improved Unarmed Strike or whether all PC that have IUS get full strength damage with all of their unarmed attacks.
I stand corrected.
Which leaves the quandary of how an eidolon takes a level of anything. It's a class feature, not a separate PC. Unless your GM decides otherwise as a house rule.Although I suppose if your summoner takes a level of monk, then merges with or clones the eidolon, that might do it.
Well the issue is whether the monk has a special version of IUS or whether everyone with IUS gets full strength.
Then, of course, there is the synthesist.
Your previous quote from the monk rules answers your own question.
I think this topic raises a new issue about monks. Why wouldn't a first-level monk take Multiweapon Fighting, then say, "I can attack with all these body parts. That means I can make all the unarmed strikes I want at the standard -2 penalty."
Oh, right, multiweapon fighting requires three or more arms. So I guess they'd need to be a Kasatha.
Okay, I see where the -4 comes from now. That's the penalty on a primary weapon attack when attacking with multiple weapons and not using any feats to offset the penalty. Since the monk treats all unarmed attacks as primary attacks, they could theoretically make unlimited unarmed strikes at a -4 penalty.
I don't know how my previous quote answers my question. Does everyone with IUS attack with their knees, elbows, etc... And if they do, does that conclude that all of their attacks are at full strength as well.
If not, what are regular character with IUS attacking with, their fists? I am confused.
Monks attack with elbows, knees, etc. This is specific to monks, and is not part of the IUS text in any way aside from appearing in the same paragraph.
- Monks get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
- A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full.
- There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
- A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: Monk.
- Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
- A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Perhaps more accurately, a non-monk could make unarmed strikes with other parts of their anatomy. However the two-weapon fighting feat only covers a weapon in the "off hand". Thus non-hand unarmed strikes would be secondary, unmodified, taking a whopping -8 penalty to attack rolls (even with Improved Unarmed Strike). And if someone tried this on me while I was GM, I'd impose additional penalties and/or require acrobatics checks to pull this off without falling prone. That's presuming one doesn't assume that only monks can make non-hand attacks, because monks needed a special entry in their rules block to allow it. Obviously this gets into some grey areas in the rules. Maybe it's better to go by the axiom, "If you can do it to your enemies, they can do it to you."
If one does impose a hard limit on the number of unarmed strike attacks (made without monk flurry), then it doesn't really matter which limb is used. Using real-world physics, making an unarmed attack requires a certain amount of motion. Try to make too many and you're just having a seizure.
Found this from 2013.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2po7j
Maybe we should let the non-fist unarmed strike topic go. It's been beaten to death and back again.
But since it's sort of relevant to the topic, my own opinion would be to say, "You have this many limbs that can wield weapons. So that's the number of unarmed attacks you can potentially get."
Also: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do.
So maybe nobody can make both unarmed strikes and natural attacks together in a single full attack. This wouldn't (in my opinion) stop the eidolon from making unarmed strikes with both its bare hands and its clawed limbs, dealing unarmed strike damage with all eight fists.