So lets talk about the Solarian problem...


General Discussion

401 to 450 of 579 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>

Shinigami02 wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

If you think it's viable here is my challenge to you:

Go make a Soldier that doesn't bring Strength or Dex higher than a base 16.

Go make an Operative that doesn't bring Dex beyond a base 16.

Go make an Envoy who only has a base 16 Charisma.

Go make a Mystic with a 16 Wisdom.

Go make a Mechanic with a 16 int.

Go make a technomancer with a 16 int.

That's a 16 at level 20 mind you.

Just stating for the record, I haven't had a chance to play yet to test any of them, but I have built multiple Mechanics, an Envoy, an Operative, a Mystic, and a Soldier. And not a single one of them has a single base stat above 16. Because having higher than a 16 seems wasteful to me if you actually want a build that's more than a one-trick pony.

Uh, I said a "base of higher than 16 by level 20"

Which is actually really hard to do. At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 you add (up to) 2 points to the base of each Ability Score. I mean, you start, and end with a 16 or less in your class's core stat.

I'll give you a clue, it will leave you with weird stats like an Operative with an 18 strength.


Double post due to weirdness...

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:

Uhm...

If you are taking Heavy Armor you absolutely want to have a 20 dex by level 20. The maximium dex applied to KAC/EAC at level 20 is +5, hence you want a 20 by 20 to keep your EAC/KAC up.

You... You haven't actually played much Starfinder have you?

I have to ask because these are questions you'll understand more once you get into the game.

I haven't, you're right. I'd love to be able to play more.

My character is a melee Drone Mechanic. I took Dwarf to save myself two feats with their Racial ability, chose Heavy Armor as my level 1 feat. I chose to use a starting array of 14/10/12/16/13/8.

It was a tough choice. I had to decide to have a lower-than-ideal AC (No +2 Dex Mod to make optimal use of Heavy Armor at low levels, and Reflex saves will be rough), lower-than-ideal Strength (14 is already pushing it for a 3/4 BAB Class) or lower-than-ideal Skills/DCs (Which would block off some parts of my Class Mechanic Tricks and cause me to fall behind the Operative in Engineering? No way!)

I went with the Dex lowered, and I have suboptimal AC. And my character still feels playable (I hope! Only level 2! Maybe that makes me an idiot because I'm a melee class with 2 lower AC than optimal so now I'm dead.)

But I'm excited because even though my AC and To Hit is lower than many other builds I could rattle off, I do great damage compared to Ranged classes, frequently get extra attacks from my Drone to balance out a 3/4 BAB, and still maintain good Resolve. I have some weaknesses and some strengths that I chose.

To me, this all sounds very familiar to many of the conversations above...decisions I had to make because I couldn't be the best at everything. That's what's INTERESTING to me. That there isn't one array that says "You solved the math problem, here's the best array, never pick anything else again or you're a noob."

You're choosing To-Hit or Damage or DCs on your abilities...Saves or Skill Points...Having Revelations or generally worse class abilities like Gear Boosts/Fighting Styles.

As I've continued to say, other classes make the same tough choices, and have to be suboptimal in some places to be optimal in others. Solarian is not unique in that.

HWalsh, you're growing increasingly aggressive towards me and others in your posts, so before you tell me to 'get a clue' or tell me again I just don't understand and should come back when I've played more I'm going to move on. I've said my bit, and already spent too much time arguing on the Internet ;)

I'd just encourage anyone who is feeling down about their class of choice and always seeing a place where another class is better than yours to flip the script: Look at the same build that's getting you down, and look at all the places where your build gets more feats, has better abilities, or does more damage. There are always differences going both ways.

Otherwise it's going to be a long few months waiting for that next Rulebook.


Peat,

I have tried to make melee characters for classes and you end up with tough trade-offs. That stat array is pretty close to what I come up with.


Peat wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

Uhm...

If you are taking Heavy Armor you absolutely want to have a 20 dex by level 20. The maximium dex applied to KAC/EAC at level 20 is +5, hence you want a 20 by 20 to keep your EAC/KAC up.

You... You haven't actually played much Starfinder have you?

I have to ask because these are questions you'll understand more once you get into the game.

I haven't, you're right. I'd love to be able to play more.

My character is a melee Drone Mechanic. I took Dwarf to save myself two feats with their Racial ability, chose Heavy Armor as my level 1 feat. I chose to use a starting array of 14/10/12/16/13/8.

It was a tough choice. I had to decide to have a lower-than-ideal AC (No +2 Dex Mod to make optimal use of Heavy Armor at low levels, and Reflex saves will be rough), lower-than-ideal Strength (14 is already pushing it for a 3/4 BAB Class) or lower-than-ideal Skills/DCs (Which would block off some parts of my Class Mechanic Tricks and cause me to fall behind the Operative in Engineering? No way!)

I went with the Dex lowered, and I have suboptimal AC. And my character still feels playable (I hope! Only level 2! Maybe that makes me an idiot because I'm a melee class with 2 lower AC than optimal so now I'm dead.)

But I'm excited because even though my AC and To Hit is lower than many other builds I could rattle off, I do great damage compared to Ranged classes, frequently get extra attacks from my Drone to balance out a 3/4 BAB, and still maintain good Resolve. I have some weaknesses and some strengths that I chose.

To me, this all sounds very familiar to many of the conversations above...decisions I had to make because I couldn't be the best at everything. That's what's INTERESTING to me. That there isn't one array that says "You solved the math problem, here's the best array, never pick anything else again or you're a noob."

You're choosing To-Hit or Damage or DCs on your abilities...Saves or Skill Points...Having Revelations or generally worse class...

I only seem aggressive because I'm stating math with direct comparisons and people are trying to counter with, "nuh uh!" and it has become difficult to have any conversation because of it.

There is no argument that you can't play a class that has some statistically represented weaknesses and still have fun. None at all. I still enjoy my Solarian despite these issues.

That doesn't mean those issues don't exist.

Trying to brush them aside and "ignore them" doesn't help solve the problem either.

Yes, in a group where people aren't trying to optimize, or be efficient, you may not see them.

Here is where the "But" comes in.

I wasn't all that about optimization in Starfinder (pure optimization) until Alien Archive came out.

Alien Archive showed us exactly what Paizo expected.

Paizo tuned this game incredibly high, where skill checks nearly automatically fail unless you max out stats. Combat is, unfortunately, no different.

I'm using the level 20 comparisons here, though they hold steady at every level past 3-4...

For example:

Maxed out, with +5 Dex in the best Heavy Armor at level 20 a Player Character can expect to see the following:

41/42 EAC/KAC

Maxed out, with +8 Dex in the best Light Armor wt level 20 with Solar Armor a Player Character can expect to see the following:

42/42 EAC/KAC

You can bring this a little higher with a Vesk, getting 42/43 and 43/43 but that is about it. That is the maximum cap the system goes for.

------

So let us assume, for the sake of argument, that someone goes Heavy Armor and doesn't have a 20 Dex by level 20?

Okay, lets say they low ball it, and have a 14, a +2 modifier. 3 under cap.

-----

According to Alien Archive, at level 20, a combatant enemy will have a +34 Attack Bonus.

So, in the best Heavy Armor your AC with a +2 Dex is going to be 38/39

They are going to hit you on a roll of 4-5. Meaning they only have a 15% chance to miss you with an attack that targets EAC and a 20% chance to miss you with an attack that targets KAC.

Against an "Expert" Enemy your odds slightly improve as they only have a +32 Attack Bonus, meaning they need a 6-7 to hit you. Increasing the odds of being missed to 25% and 30%

Against a "Spellcaster" Enemy these odds increase again, as they only have a +30 to hit, increasing the odds of them missing you to 35% and 40%

This is incredibly fine tuned, in order to have even a marginal chance of the enemy missing you you need to cap your defense.

A maxed out, completely optimal EAC/KAC of 41/42 (the maximum possible in Heavy Armor) you still only need an 7-8, 9-10, or 11-12 to hit you. Meaning they have a 30-35% miss chance, a 40-45% miss chance, or a 50-55% miss chance. That is a spellcaster will have a 50-55% chance to hit you in melee or ranged combat if you completely max out your defenses.

That is how finely tuned the game is. That isn't me saying it, that is using Paizo's own numbers.

The same comes into hitting enemies.

At level 20 an enemy will have a 35/37 EAC/KAC. Meaning, if you are a combatant like a Solarian or Soldier, you need to be able to reliably connect.

At maximum level, with weapon focus, and a 26 attack stat, you only have a +29 to hit.

Meaning you need to roll a 6-8 in order to hit. If you are 2 lower, that 6-8 becomes a 8-10, and if you want to full attack at that point, even with the triple attack -5 to each attack that we do by that level that means you need to roll a 13-15 to connect if you are even 2 under that +29. That is pretty steep.

Note: You can go to +30 but I don't even recommend that.

Saves are the same way.

Paizo tuned this game to pure optimization to the point that without optimization you can't even succeed on equal level DC checks.

Again, I didn't write the game, I just analyzed it. I was exactly like you, thinking these things didn't matter, until Alien Archive came out and I took it apart to see how it worked. Now that I have, you can clearly see what Paizo expects players to do.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
"HWalsh wrote:
Paizo tuned this game to pure optimization to the point that without optimization you can't even succeed on equal level DC checks.

No they didn’t.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think the numbers emphasize that Paizo doesn't expect people to solo monsters. The way the game is setup, small bonuses or debuffs, since they are so rare, create huge effects.

The envoy get em, which is +2 hit can increase a solarian or solder dpr by 30% of a single attack on a triple attack. An operative causing flat footed does the same.

And I think the intent for low AC vs high opponent attacks was to prevent someone from tanking an opponent. What is desired is to avoid anyone from being focus fired. This means that in the best solution, if you are being focus fired, you need to disengage - which admittedly is tough for melee. But this is the reason I feel hit and run is far superior to blitz for soldiers.

The actual AC you have isn't nearly as important in starfinder as it was in pathfinder (because a +2 AC when a mob has a 20% chance to hit you is a 50% reduction in incoming damage, but only a 14% reduction in incoming damage when they have a 70% chance to hit you).


HWalsh wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

If you think it's viable here is my challenge to you:

Go make a Soldier that doesn't bring Strength or Dex higher than a base 16.

Go make an Operative that doesn't bring Dex beyond a base 16.

Go make an Envoy who only has a base 16 Charisma.

Go make a Mystic with a 16 Wisdom.

Go make a Mechanic with a 16 int.

Go make a technomancer with a 16 int.

That's a 16 at level 20 mind you.

Just stating for the record, I haven't had a chance to play yet to test any of them, but I have built multiple Mechanics, an Envoy, an Operative, a Mystic, and a Soldier. And not a single one of them has a single base stat above 16. Because having higher than a 16 seems wasteful to me if you actually want a build that's more than a one-trick pony.

Uh, I said a "base of higher than 16 by level 20"

Which is actually really hard to do. At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 you add (up to) 2 points to the base of each Ability Score. I mean, you start, and end with a 16 or less in your class's core stat.

I'll give you a clue, it will leave you with weird stats like an Operative with an 18 strength.

Yeah, I didn't realize that until after I'd already made the post and enough time had past I couldn't change it ^.^;

My bad.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
"HWalsh wrote:
Paizo tuned this game to pure optimization to the point that without optimization you can't even succeed on equal level DC checks.
No they didn’t.

A Standard DC 30-35 at level 10 says otherwise Rysky.

In order to have a 50% chance of success (needing to roll 11 or higher) you have to have a +19 to +24

If you have placed a rank in a skill at every level, and have a +5 in the stat, you only hit +18

So, if you are a Pilot, for example, and you want to do one of those base DC 15 + 2 x Tier maneuvers? You better have a minimum of a +15 and roll a natural 20. Realistically if you want to have a chance to succeed you want:

+4 Dex (minimum)
+10 Ranks
+3 Class Skill
+1 Theme Bonus
+2 Miscellanious
---

+20, meaning I'll succeed on a natural 10 - 15

And that is with the skill maxed out, a high stat bonus, a class skill, a theme bonus, and either the Lashunta Student Bonus or the Skill Synergy feat.

Lets see what happens if I don't max out, and say, only have 7 ranks, a +3 Stat bonus, no theme bonus and no +2 misc bonus shall we?

ahem:

+3 Dex
+7 ranks
+3 Class Skill

+13 - I need a Natural 17 to pass the DC 30... Or a Natural 22 to pass the DC 25 which, well, is impossible.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

They've already come out an said the the space DCs are out of whack and will look to change them, so obviously it isn't a design goal and shouldn't be used to support that.

Another thing that seems to be forgotten repeatedly is that =CR monsters are not the bread and butter for fights. A single equal CR monster is meant to be a threat for an entire party and thus you shouldn't expect 50% chances against them. I know I'd get super bored if even the majority of our combats were against single entities. A more realistic comparison would be against CR -2 or -3 (6 CR-3 creatures would be considered a hard encounter for example) or so things as that is rating that a DM can use to place multiple foes against a party.


I would also like to point out that as of yet we have few bonuses to skills provided by equipment. I expect that there will probably be more items like the specialized engineering kit and high density data jack coming with the pack world book. Most DCs are passable at the lower levels that most players are playing at right now and the problem may go away to some degree as more material is released.


Actually it's only starship combat where CR = APL is considered a hard fight. As far as boots combat is concerned, CR = APL is considered an average encounter, just like in Pathfinder. As far as the math breaks down, a CR-0 monster is supposed to be no more difficult than 3 CR-3 ones (and in either case the rules don't presume either to be particularly taxing encounters).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Equal CR monsters are still geared to be an encounter to the whole party, not just individuals in the party.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Actually it's only starship combat where CR = APL is considered a hard fight. As far as boots combat is concerned, CR = APL is considered an average encounter, just like in Pathfinder. As far as the math breaks down, a CR-0 monster is supposed to be no more difficult than 3 CR-3 ones (and in either case the rules don't presume either to be particularly taxing encounters).

Oh I know, I was going be the guideline in the book where 6 monsters of the same CR have a CR contribution of +5, which would put them in the APL+2 category.


It does seem to me that the difficulty curve got upped a little, with a =CR encounter being a little harder here than in Pathfinder. Probably because PCs have greatly increased ability to refresh between fights.


Honestly I think it's less the refresh and more the game is just better tuned than PF. In PF it was pretty routine for people to build for stuff that obliterates CR+3 monsters inside a round. Starfinder's math generally precludes that (so far anyway) so now the bad guys actually have more than maybe a round to retaliate before getting pounded into paste/eating a suck/save.

Silver Crusade

Both sides have presented their math. The issue is that Hwalsh has his own views on what a PC should be capable of and the solarion does not achieve it. I think if he tries other classes, he will see that none of the classes achieve what he is looking for. If he finds a class that does, maybe he should play that class. Whereas I think the solarion is fine and will play mine.

It is time to lock this thread. The horse is very dead now.


SwampTing wrote:

Both sides have presented their math. The issue is that Hwalsh has his own views on what a PC should be capable of and the solarion does not achieve it. I think if he tries other classes, he will see that none of the classes achieve what he is looking for. If he finds a class that does, maybe he should play that class. Whereas I think the solarion is fine and will play mine.

It is time to lock this thread. The horse is very dead now.

That's...a bit dismissive of others opinions and the presented math.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Solarain you might as will be a Combat Style for a Soldier. Let's do a simple comparison to them and see how they balance out -

Both get -
+1 BAB
Stamina 7+CON
7 HP
4 Skill ranks
Same save progression
A fighting style & combat abilities while leveling.

What's different but I consider the same -
Soldiers get Feats / Solarians gain Revelations
Solarians gain a manifest weapon or Armor / Soldiers gain access to all the armor and weapons as class skills. (This could be debated on which is better but I'm calling it the same.)

What's really different -
Solarian has 4 primary stats (STR, DEX, CON, CHA) if melee, 3 if ranged (DEX, CON, CHA)

Soldier has 3 primary stats (STR, DEX, CON) if melee, 2 if ranged (DEX, CON)

Think what HWalsh has been trying to show with all his math & posts is that the Solarian is suffering a extra Stat Tax compared to all the other classes. While this extra Stat Tax isn't game breaking, it does cause the Solarian to lag behind a bit from the other classes.

Character creation: Soldiers can afford to put a 18 in their primary stat and Solarians have "issues" if they do so - according to the book, CHA is the Solarian primary stat.


SwampTing wrote:

Both sides have presented their math. The issue is that Hwalsh has his own views on what a PC should be capable of and the solarion does not achieve it. I think if he tries other classes, he will see that none of the classes achieve what he is looking for. If he finds a class that does, maybe he should play that class. Whereas I think the solarion is fine and will play mine.

It is time to lock this thread. The horse is very dead now.

If you don't like the thread, you can leave it, but to declare that "It is just HWalsh's flawed opinion" is... Wrong.

1. I have already proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt that other classes can do EXACTLY what I state the Solarian should be able to do. (In fact all of them can but the Solarian.)

2. This is a math-based fact, not an opinion, every class can hit +16 on a high save and +16 on a (single) low save at level 20 without sacrificing their attack, resolve, Stamina Points, or avoiding their class abilities.

If this was a widespread thing where no classes could hit these benchmarks I might think you have a valid criticism, but the fact that every class but 1 class can do this proves the point. 1 class is an outlier that has to be built in a completely different manner and then cannot meet the same benchmarks as the other classes. How you can keep trying to claim that isn't a fact when... I proved it. Math doesn't lie... Is beyond me.

There is literally only one conclusion:

"Due to how they were built, the Solarian is slightly lower than other classes in Resolve, Saves, and Survivability, as well as the only class unable to take full advantage of their class abilities without making sacrifices to other areas."

And you are acting like I am screaming, "The Solarian sucks!"

Which I'm not. I have said I like the Solarian, it is my favorite class, despite the flaw in the design. At best I'm asking Paizo to add a Revelation in (hopefully the next book) that addresses the issue.

Like I said, over and over again, adding a Revelation that adds +2 to Will/Fort or +3 if attuned (I'd recommend attuned to Graviton for the extra bonus) would actually completely fix the issue. That is how much it needs to be corrected to fix the issue.


Matt2VK wrote:

Solarain you might as will be a Combat Style for a Soldier. Let's do a simple comparison to them and see how they balance out -

Both get -
+1 BAB
Stamina 7+CON
7 HP
4 Skill ranks
Same save progression
A fighting style & combat abilities while leveling.

What's different but I consider the same -
Soldiers get Feats / Solarians gain Revelations
Solarians gain a manifest weapon or Armor / Soldiers gain access to all the armor and weapons as class skills. (This could be debated on which is better but I'm calling it the same.)

What's really different -
Solarian has 4 primary stats (STR, DEX, CON, CHA) if melee, 3 if ranged (DEX, CON, CHA)

Soldier has 3 primary stats (STR, DEX, CON) if melee, 2 if ranged (DEX, CON)

Think what HWalsh has been trying to show with all his math & posts is that the Solarian is suffering a extra Stat Tax compared to all the other classes. While this extra Stat Tax isn't game breaking, it does cause the Solarian to lag behind a bit from the other classes.

Character creation: Soldiers can afford to put a 18 in their primary stat and Solarians have "issues" if they do so - according to the book, CHA is the Solarian primary stat.

THANK YOU!

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying.


Why would a +2/3 to Fort/Will from a Revelation fix the Solarian?

Stat Array (really using the optimized one):

01: 16/13/10/10/10/14
05: 18/15/10/12/10/16
10: 19/17/12/12/12/16
15: 20/17/14/14/14/16
20: 20/18/16/14/16/18

PU: 26/20/16/14/16/22

Saves:
Fort: +17 (+12 +3 +2)
Ref: +16 (+6 +5 +5)
Will: +17 (+12 +3 +2)

Which puts them in the same bracket as the Soldier, allows for the variance to place the needed +2 in Int to make full use of Sidreal Influence.

The issue is just that, the Solarian tends to fall a smidgeon behind the other classes who, typically, at 20, have an 18 in their save stats and at least one of them will have a +20, sometimes (especially in the case of the Operative) will have higher.


HWalsh wrote:
How you can keep trying to claim that isn't a fact when... I proved it. Math doesn't lie... Is beyond me

See, the problem is how people think. You are presenting logic, math, and conclusions. But, you sound frustrated, exasperated, and people think that you are attacking them. Subconsciously, people see a threat that they have to defend against. This puts them in the defense and they believe that, instead of this being a conflict of ideas, it is a conflict of people. No matter what you say, or how much you prove that you are right, it will actually make people think you are more wrong.

Psychology is weird.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

It's more they're presenting their opinion alongside facts as facts and their responses are more and more insulting and belittling. It doesn't matter how many facts or actual data you have to back yourself up, once you start insulting people your argument kinda crumbles.

And also taking people as disagreeing with them as a personal attack and outright misstating what other people are saying. One poster said "The issue is that Hwalsh has his own views" whereas they replied with "but to declare that 'It is just HWalsh's flawed opinion'"... which the poster didn't do.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I know he isn't attacking me.
What I am arguing against is the fact that the math presented is the only important aspect of the class.

I agree that the Solarian has worse saves and has build challenges faced by no other classes.
However I disagree with the fact that this is an issue with the class, and instead see it as a balancing point to a bunch of other stuff the class can do.


CactusUnicorn wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
How you can keep trying to claim that isn't a fact when... I proved it. Math doesn't lie... Is beyond me

See, the problem is how people think. You are presenting logic, math, and conclusions. But, you sound frustrated, exasperated, and people think that you are attacking them. Subconsciously, people see a threat that they have to defend against. This puts them in the defense and they believe that, instead of this being a conflict of ideas, it is a conflict of people. No matter what you say, or how much you prove that you are right, it will actually make people think you are more wrong.

Psychology is weird.

Honestly I am getting frustrated and exasperated.

Mostly because the opposition have proposed that the build proposed is wrong. Then they give their own build. I point out that their own build results in disparities by comparison.

Such as going the Solarian:

01: 14/15/10/10/12/12
05: 16/17/12/10/12/14
10: 18/18/14/10/14/14
15: 18/18/16/12/16/16
20: 18/18/18/14/18/18

PU: 24/20/18/14/18/22

Which isn't a bad build, but it still falls behind every other build as they end to end with stats like:

01: 18/11/12/10/12/10
05: 19/13/14/10/14/10
10: 20/15/16/10/16/10
15: 21/17/18/10/18/10
20: 22/18/18/12/18/12

Soldier: 28/20/18/12/22/12

Which is a rather lazy array that requires almost no forethought to put together, but ends with the Soldier having higher attack, higher saves, higher resolve, etc etc.

Or the Operative which can go:

01: 11/18/12/10/12/10
05: 11/19/14/12/14/10
10: 11/20/16/12/16/12
15: 11/21/16/14/18/14
20: 11/22/18/16/18/16

PU: 11/26/20/16/24/16

And max out KAC/EAC with light armor, match the "average max" +8 to attack from stats, and have Saves that are to die for and will actually have more Resolve and Stamina Points than a level 20 Solarian.

And both of those didn't take a lot of theory crafting and going back and checking and plotting to get nearly maximized results.

The challenge was then laid out:
"Show me I am wrong. Show me a Solarian build that gets to at least +8 from attack stat, gets to at least 16 Resolve at level 20, gets to at least a +16 in all three saves, and gets to use 6-7 skill points per level at level 20 in order to use all 6 Sidreal Influence skills and still have a Starship Combat role covered."

People posted builds that did not accomplish that, then declared that they had met those criteria... It was very hard for me to respond to that...

It was like, "Cool build, but it doesn't do what was asked."

To which people replied, "But revelations!"

And we pointed out, "Revelations aren't any more powerful than any other class abilities." Going so far as to go point to point with the Soldier and showing exactly where they got the same benefits in many cases but the Soldier didn't have to spend a move action to turn theirs on.

All of this simply because, and again, this is inarguable fact, the Solarian falls slight behind the other classes. It isn't game breaking, it isn't OMG this class sucks, it is: "This class falls behind slightly and this should be addressed by Paizo."

And yes, I was hoping someone from Paizo would comment. We had a number of Paizo devs in here commenting on things from "Can an Operative bend system and get automatic trick attack past level 7 without making a roll?" to "Can a Solar Weapon be disarmed?"

Those were relatively minor issues compared to: "Hey, we have noticed a minor issue here that we can prove exists through math, can we get a word that something is going to be done?"

Kind of like we did about Space Combat when it was discovered that there was a statistical problem.


Actually the problem is that there are underlying premises that are being taken for granted. The math for example lacks elaboration. What does "behind by 2" actually manifest as? Examples.

The discussion would be lot more sane if we made it more specific. TAke a party of 5, envoy operative mystic mechanic soldier/solarian. Make them lvl 10. Open AA and build a CR 11 encounter to make it challenging enough. Maybe one with one CR 11 monster and another scenario with 5 weaker ones.

But even that will only present the math in nicer form and not answer the questions behind this thread. For example, the creeping growth of "X for Y" mechanics was a bad thing for Pathfinder. Fixing that without making charisma different will revert charisma back into a niche attribute. BUT that is only meaningful if you lose a lot of performance by not being able to put those points you put into charisma into other attributes. And "performance" is shaky term because years of experience makes you realize that lot of DnD rules are more of guidelines and suggestions than hard proven facts. Especially how lot of high CR monsters do not even exist as realistic combat encounters and more just as narrative devices to kill the party because they decided to pick a fight with demon prince of darkness.

Aaaaahhhh.


Envall wrote:

Actually the problem is that there are underlying premises that are being taken for granted. The math for example lacks elaboration. What does "behind by 2" actually manifest as? Examples.

The discussion would be lot more sane if we made it more specific. TAke a party of 5, envoy operative mystic mechanic soldier/solarian. Make them lvl 10. Open AA and build a CR 11 encounter to make it challenging enough. Maybe one with one CR 11 monster and another scenario with 5 weaker ones.

But even that will only present the math in nicer form and not answer the questions behind this thread. For example, the creeping growth of "X for Y" mechanics was a bad thing for Pathfinder. Fixing that without making charisma different will revert charisma back into a niche attribute. BUT that is only meaningful if you lose a lot of performance by not being able to put those points you put into charisma into other attributes. And "performance" is shaky term because years of experience makes you realize that lot of DnD rules are more of guidelines and suggestions than hard proven facts. Especially how lot of high CR monsters do not even exist as realistic combat encounters and more just as narrative devices to kill the party because they decided to pick a fight with demon prince of darkness.

Aaaaahhhh.

The problem does sort of rest with Charisma being generally a weak stat.

It helps with skills, yes, but all Ability Scores help with skills, but they also all have other purposes:

Strength = Melee/Thrown Attack and Melee/Thrown Damage.
Dexterity = Operative Melee/Ranged Attack, Reflex Save, Initiative.
Constitution = Stamina Point Gain, Fortitude Save.
Intelligence = Extra Skill Points and Languages.
Wisdom = Will Save.
Charisma = None.

So when you have a class like the Solarian which, by design is supposed to be a Light Armored Melee Combatant that also has a High Charisma you end up with a slew of problems.

The first is, being light armored, more or less causes some problems. Either you are forced to spend 2 feats minimum to get longarm and specialization in longarm to become a ranged combatant (which works quite well mind you, especially with Solar Armor). This is mostly because the Solarian at base isn't really a ranged attacker due to only having small arms but no trick attack to help with it.

It has Advanced Melee Weapons though at base so that is clearly the intended design. So, you start off by looking at the stats you need: Strength for Melee Attack/Damage, Dexterity for Defense/Reflex Save, Charisma for Save DCs...

Then you look at the class abilities, Int + 4 skills, followed by a class ability that adds more skills to the skill list, followed by an ability that (over the course of the game) beefs up 6 skills. So to take advantage of that you really need more skill points. Also to take advantage of that, if you want to go Captain, which leads to Charisma you need to get Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy which is a very high skill investment on a Int +4 class.

Now you need saves because you are a combatant who isn't likely to end a fight any faster than a Soldier will. Every other class on high saves can easily hit +16, and on low saves +10 without using personal upgrades. On one of those low saves (most only have 1) they will have a +15 with the Ring of Resistance giving them an average of 2 saves at +16 and 1 save at +15, the Technomancer is an outlier there.

You also need Stamina Points because even if you max out Dexterity for your armor, in this game, you're going to get hit a lot based on the incredibly high attack bonus enemies have.

Because you are going to get hit a lot you need lots of resolve because you really need to be trying to regain lost Stamina between battles.

Which means this is the only class in the game that, to get full benefit out of, you need to buff up literally every single stat. Whereas every other class only requires 3-4 stats. Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom and then whatever their Resolve stat is, which in some cases (Operative and Soldier) only requires 3 stats, or in Soldier 4 (for melee) thus you see an issue as the Solarian, unlike the Pathfinder Paladin, gets nothing to help itself compensate.


Envall wrote:
Actually the problem is that there are underlying premises that are being taken for granted. The math for example lacks elaboration. What does "behind by 2" actually manifest as?

What more examples do you want?

I mean, that isn't being snarky, the example is, in general the Solarian will have lower saves than other classes and lower Stamina.

It is the only class that is unlikely to have a 14 Con and 14 Wisdom by level 10 if it wants its Resolve and Save DCs to be competitive.

This usually results in the Solarian having a 5-10% higher chance to fail a save than any other class.


I've heard the Envoy also has it's own problems.

Surprise, surprise, it's also a CHA base class. Which is also another solid indicator that something is wrong with the CHA skill.


Matt2VK wrote:

I've heard the Envoy also has it's own problems.

Surprise, surprise, it's also a CHA base class. Which is also another solid indicator that something is wrong with the CHA skill.

The Envoy doesn't have it quite as bad, since it is primarily a ranged class.

You can get away with:

01: 11/16/10/10/10/16
05: 11/18/12/10/12/18
10: 11/19/14/10/14/19
15: 11/20/16/10/16/20
20: 13/20/18/12/18/20

PU: 13/26/18/12/20/24

Attack Bonus: +23 (+25 if they have Weapon Focus vs Solarian +29 with the same.)

EAC/KAC - Maxed with Light Armor

Fort: +15 (6+5+4)
Ref: +20 (12+8)
Will: +19 (12+7)

Resolve: 17

Amusingly they'll have the same Stamina as a Solarian who hits 16 Con.

So... Nah, they have no problems. They can hit the same benchmarks as every other class.


9 people marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:

So to take advantage of that you really need more skill points. Also to take advantage of that, if you want to go Captain, which leads to Charisma you need to get Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy which is a very high skill investment on a Int +4 class.

Now you need saves because you are a combatant who isn't likely to end a fight any faster than a Soldier will. Every other class on high saves can easily hit +16, and on low saves +10 without using personal upgrades. On one of those low saves (most only have 1) they will have a +15 with the Ring of Resistance giving them an average of 2 saves at +16 and 1 save at +15, the Technomancer is an outlier there.

My annoyance with your debating tactic is this...

You continually dismiss other people's points as if we're all just idiots and you happen to be the only person in the room with an IQ greater than the common cockroach. This comes from using terms like "I'm correct" "Those that don't agree are wrong" and "Everyone else is presenting their side as 'nuh uh'...". It's like you willfully choose to not even digest what others are bringing to the table solely to continue your diatribe and support your sometimes fluctuating arguments. This has ballooned this entire thread to over 9 pages of back-and-forth defense vs attack discussion.

Now, the part I quoted...

The first paragraph of this snip here, you keep staying that Solarians *have* to have 6 skills maxed out to make use of Sidereal Influence. Making this statement is opinion. You can make use of Sidereal Influence with far less. You cannot even use all of the skills bolstered by this ability at the same time. That last bit isn't my opinion, that is the text of the ability! That has 0 to do with math-based fact. Being able to max all 6 skills would be nice, but just picking a few of these to enhance whatever role you are playing is 100% doable on the base 4 points without investing into INT. You can either focus on making 100% use of Sidereal Influence, or you can use parts of it, either way the ability does what it is written to do... add a 1D6 to skill rolls. This fact does not change if you have 1 rank or 20 ranks. It is entirely up to the player on managing the opportunity cost.

You repeat again that a Captain *needs* Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy. YOU DON'T! Bluff comes up in exactly one Captain option... taunt. Intimidate can also be used for taunt instead of Bluff! You can 100% skip that skill for the Captain role. Diplomacy's greatest benefit comes at level 12 (reroll ship action skill checks). Until level 12, Intimidate offers a lot to your crew. Intimidate to be a ship Captain is exactly 1 skill to make the most out of the role until level 12 when another option opens in Diplomacy. Continuing a mantra of you need all 3 is hyperbole and not a math-based fact at all.

As I outlined before, you can invest heavily into Diplomacy and Intimidate to cover the Captain role and when you use Sidereal Influence you can either A) push your skill results further out of combat with a 1D6, or B) use Sidereal Influence to boost other skills like Sense Motive. Regardless of choice, you're still making using of the class feature. You may not be maxed out on all of it, but you're using it. That is in no way shape or form, "ignoring a class feature". Your only argument to this is from a stance of all or nothing.

The people need a +16 save and the Solarian is the only kid not invited to this party argument doesn't hold a lot of water. If you're making a build decision to not raise your save to this apparent benchmark, then that is *clearly* a personal preference. You can achieve a +16 in Fortitude or Will easily. You may need a feat to raise the other, and you'll need a ring to raise Dex. Let's not pretend that other classes don't have to make choices to do the same. It is likely an easier choice, but it is still a choice.

I'm not telling you your Lashunta build is wrong. It is your preference, but please try to at least realize... it is in fact, your preference. It is also, a very cool build.

If you want to build to str 20 dex 18 con 14 int 18 wis 14 and cha 18, then cool man. You obviously see and know your build has strengths and weaknesses. You're a smart person. That is obvious. The build I proposed with str 20 dex 18 con 18 int 10 wis 14 cha 20 has strengths and weaknesses too. I recognize and accept what it can and cannot do. I also recognize, that I do not believe what I presented is a universal allocation of attributes. In order to build my Captain, it was made in a vacuum without knowing a party composition. Because in actual play, I may go wildly different.

The crux of your skills based argument, which is strongly tied to this entire discussion about saves, does fundamentally lay in personal build preference. That isn't math. That's opinion.

What is factual, and I support, is that the Solarian will likely be behind a Soldier on Fortitude saves. However, they can be ahead of all of the other classes with the slow progression for Fortitude for much of the game. Those characters *need* to invest into their CON which can be a lot easier, but it isn't as axiomatic as you make it sound.

A Solarian will be behind everyone in Reflex saves, but we've now just casually dismissed this in this thread because those saves are damage based. So who cares about being dead last here? This is the only save in which the class will be dead last without using Graviton mode.

A Solarian will be ahead of the Mechanic in Will saves and behind most others *if* they build for it. I say this because you assume all Soldier will have an 18 WIS by level 20. You see this as an absolute truth, because, according to the way you present your arguments, no one in their right minds will build any other way. To build any other way from maxing out Str, Dex, Con, and Wis for saves on a Soldier is just "sub-optimal" and anyone that does anything different is just ignorant of how math works.

Things I agree with you on from this thread:

1) Solarians are stretched too thin on skill points by default. However, this is workable. Also, Solarians have more inherent options to non-combat roles than the Soldier who also shares their INT+4 skills per level. The Soldier is the only class in the game that sits on the sidelines unless it is Pew-Pew/Smash-Smash time. Their Starship roles are pigeonholed into A) Gunner, or B) Pilot. You'd have to go out of your way to keep up with Computers/Engineering, and being Captain also requires a lot of build sacrifice. The Solarian can add at least one more to that with Captain and they aren't a terrible face... if you build off your already escalating CHA. But nothing changes that by default, a Solarian can be a Gunner, the universal role, a potential Captain, and due to Skill Adept a pilot. Building for Computers/Engineering doesn't play to most builds cranking DEX/CHA and requires INT which is tough to do.

2) Solarians are behind on saving throws. They are, across the board. There is no one spot in which they excel, but this can be variable depending on how the other classes are building. Level also needs to be taken in to account. I have some level 10 builds where a Technomancer, Mystic, Envoy start with an investment in Dex & Resolve stat. By level 10 their CON goes from 10 to 14. Their Fortitude save is a 5. By Contrast, the Solarian has a 7 Fortitude save if their CON is just 10. That's a math-based fact, and the sky is not falling.

3) All other classes in the game have a far easier time building up from character generation.

You do your best to back up your statements with evidence. I appreciate that and I respect it. What this thread has inflated to is, an argument on just how much any of that actually means to individuals in actual play.


As far as the Int thing, I'm actually gonna go ahead and say it: 4 skills is almost guaranteed to be enough for most games. As people have stated many times (both in this thread and others) most games don't go to 20. Now maybe I'm wrong, but I highly doubt many of those games that don't go to 20 are going to stop at 19. Heck, according to a friend involved in it, SFS is going to end around 15. So since you don't get skills 5 and 6 until level 19... it should have about as much influence as Capstones, which is to say it's not generally going to matter.

Edit: Wrong society.


HWalsh wrote:


What more examples do you want?

I mean, that isn't being snarky, the example is, in general the Solarian will have lower saves than other classes and lower Stamina.

It is the only class that is unlikely to have a 14 Con and 14 Wisdom by level 10 if it wants its Resolve and Save DCs to be competitive.

This usually results in the Solarian having a 5-10% higher chance to fail a save than any other class.

Trying to respond is harder than I thought when the messageboard has frantic schedule on its maintenance these days.

Let's consider something like To-Hit since it is the easy one. Let's say Solarian player pinches his STR. We can go with the 2 modifier difference. You are level 10, you aim to hit Kinetic Armor Class of 25. Full BAB does lot of job to reduce it down to needing 15 for a roll. Add in the STR modifier, you need 11 to hit. That is the classic 50% hit chance right there, with very minimal build. In fact, having just full BAB alone and effort to boost your main attribute somewhat is enough alone to make you function as a character, which I think is very much intended.

This is of course impacted by the fact that, party is a synergistic entity. Operator helps you with flat flooted. Envoy with Get em. Mystic can remove the effects of your failed saves. So forth. Solarian's one area which ends up weaker than the rest is within the tolerances. Thus we can both agree Solarian is forced to be weaker in one area, but still disagree if this is a problem. The "problem" manifests itself as merely an inconvenience born out of thematic association with charisma.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Your proposed builds of other classes is not how I would build them. For a lot of 3/4 classes, I would start with a 13STR and go to 15STR.

13 STR is needed to buy heavy weapons and 14 STR is needed to fire L10 weapons without penalty. Plasma explode weapons don't care about attack bonus. Pretty sure this is how I would approach technomancer and envoy.

You make assumptions about other class builds that raise their saves to the maximum, when in reality, that is probably not how they would be made (ex. my soldier and a mechanic in this thread that are actual characters being played). Also, you don't even entertain in your save comparisons that other classes can be melee.

I get the Solarian can't meet your goalpost expectations of the class, but it meets the expectations of a lot of other people. I don't view a point or two of difference in saves as a big deal. I don't think having a high base stat only for resolve is important. I don't think raising INT is necessary.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

i think part of the issue is that you do no think that the monsters for example are not supposed to have that % to hit that they have
the game creators i feel are assuming buffs and defbuffs to attacks such as cover


Envall wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


What more examples do you want?

I mean, that isn't being snarky, the example is, in general the Solarian will have lower saves than other classes and lower Stamina.

It is the only class that is unlikely to have a 14 Con and 14 Wisdom by level 10 if it wants its Resolve and Save DCs to be competitive.

This usually results in the Solarian having a 5-10% higher chance to fail a save than any other class.

Trying to respond is harder than I thought when the messageboard has frantic schedule on its maintenance these days.

Let's consider something like To-Hit since it is the easy one. Let's say Solarian player pinches his STR. We can go with the 2 modifier difference. You are level 10, you aim to hit Kinetic Armor Class of 25. Full BAB does lot of job to reduce it down to needing 15 for a roll. Add in the STR modifier, you need 11 to hit. That is the classic 50% hit chance right there, with very minimal build. In fact, having just full BAB alone and effort to boost your main attribute somewhat is enough alone to make you function as a character, which I think is very much intended.

This is of course impacted by the fact that, party is a synergistic entity. Operator helps you with flat flooted. Envoy with Get em. Mystic can remove the effects of your failed saves. So forth. Solarian's one area which ends up weaker than the rest is within the tolerances. Thus we can both agree Solarian is forced to be weaker in one area, but still disagree if this is a problem. The "problem" manifests itself as merely an inconvenience born out of thematic association with charisma.

Well, it is and it isn't. Because in order to hit your damage benchmarks you have to be able to hit when you full attack. Right now, at 10, that is only a -3, very shortly that goes to a -5.

Meaning your 11 to hit is actually a 14 to hit for you to do your damage. Which in a level or so will become a 16 to hit. Meaning you're likely to actually miss with 2 out of 3 of your swings.


jimthegray wrote:

i think part of the issue is that you do no think that the monsters for example are not supposed to have that % to hit that they have

the game creators i feel are assuming buffs and defbuffs to attacks such as cover

I would agree with that, save for the fact that this is the only class that is up against that same %, every other class can easily maximize it. When everyone else can, and yours struggles to do it, the problem isn't with them, it isn't an expected thing, the problem is with your class and its problems.


nicholas storm wrote:

Your proposed builds of other classes is not how I would build them. For a lot of 3/4 classes, I would start with a 13STR and go to 15STR.

13 STR is needed to buy heavy weapons and 14 STR is needed to fire L10 weapons without penalty. Plasma explode weapons don't care about attack bonus. Pretty sure this is how I would approach technomancer and envoy.

You make assumptions about other class builds that raise their saves to the maximum, when in reality, that is probably not how they would be made (ex. my soldier and a mechanic in this thread that are actual characters being played). Also, you don't even entertain in your save comparisons that other classes can be melee.

I get the Solarian can't meet your goalpost expectations of the class, but it meets the expectations of a lot of other people. I don't view a point or two of difference in saves as a big deal. I don't think having a high base stat only for resolve is important. I don't think raising INT is necessary.

The counter point to this is that, it isn't about choice on build, these are hard numerics. Every other class can do X. One class cannot do X.

And no, I don't discount that other classes can do melee. Heck my Soldier build is melee. The Operative build I posted is melee. I could do a melee mechanic and get similar results (though that would require a bit of a twitch as it requires some feat juggling) which would indeed lower the capabilities vs the build I posted... Because you are making a non-melee intended class into a melee class.

I'm arguing from a pure mechanically benchmarked standpoint.

All the other classes can do X. This one cannot do X.

Can you build other classes in a way where they don't hit their benchmarks? Yes. When they go out of their way to do so. Is it crippling? No. Can they function. Yes.

That, however, has no bearing on the Solarion because we aren't talking about a sub-optimal build strategy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It does have bearing, because you are comparing solarian to other classes that may be built sub-optimally for saves, but not for what their intended purpose was.

If you want to compare saves for your solarian that raises int and cha to other classes that also make choices to raise non save related stats, then it is relevant.


nicholas storm wrote:

It does have bearing, because you are comparing solarian to other classes that may be built sub-optimally for saves, but not for what their intended purpose was.

If you want to compare saves for your solarian that raises int and cha to other classes that also make choices to raise non save related stats, then it is relevant.

No, it doesn't have bearing.

It really doesn't.

You are talking about a class that is told, "Don't use one of your class abilities to the fullest."

Then another that says, "Also, don't raise your resolve stat really high. Yes, we know literally every other class does it, but you should't."

Charisma is their resolve stat, and while Charisma is problematic in general, it isn't automatically crippling as a resolve stat... See what I did with an Envoy...

You're telling people, "You don't want your primary stat to actually be your primary stat." With this class. That is the only class that has that issue.

And you may not see that as a problem, and you are welcome to believe that, but I do see it as a problem, and I think I have mechanically proved it is an issue.

I set out a clear set of expectations based on what all of the other classes *could do* and then put them against the benchmarks in the AA that Paizo created.

Only one of those isn't lining up.

And yes, you can ignore Sidreal Influence and make the Solarian work.

It is pretty much what Solarian players do actually.

As far as I am concerned my Solarian, for example, has 4 skills prior to level 15.

1. Mysticism
2. Diplomacy
3. Perception
4. Piloting

I already converted my build to avoiding any Solarian powers with saves. Save for Supernova, which I don't intend to use past level 9 anymore. So that I can go lower on Charisma. I'll have 16 Charisma until the character hits 20.

The thing is, I did that to keep up with all of the other characters, so I didn't mechanically fall behind.

I *can* make it work, but it isn't anywhere near as easy, or as efficient as any other class.

And I know, you don't care about that, you don't mind that Solarians are a little behind the others. That is fine. I do. So we can agree to disagree. Mine is based on math, yours is based on feeling.

If you want to build unoptimized characters, please feel free to do so, but don't try to argue that means it is okay for an optimized character to be outright less effective than other optimized characters.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:

It does have bearing, because you are comparing solarian to other classes that may be built sub-optimally for saves, but not for what their intended purpose was.

If you want to compare saves for your solarian that raises int and cha to other classes that also make choices to raise non save related stats, then it is relevant.

No, it doesn't have bearing.

It really doesn't.

You are talking about a class that is told, "Don't use one of your class abilities to the fullest."

Then another that says, "Also, don't raise your resolve stat really high. Yes, we know literally every other class does it, but you should't."

Charisma is their resolve stat, and while Charisma is problematic in general, it isn't automatically crippling as a resolve stat... See what I did with an Envoy...

You're telling people, "You don't want your primary stat to actually be your primary stat." With this class. That is the only class that has that issue.

And you may not see that as a problem, and you are welcome to believe that, but I do see it as a problem, and I think I have mechanically proved it is an issue.

I set out a clear set of expectations based on what all of the other classes *could do* and then put them against the benchmarks in the AA that Paizo created.

Only one of those isn't lining up.

And yes, you can ignore Sidreal Influence and make the Solarian work.

It is pretty much what Solarian players do actually.

As far as I am concerned my Solarian, for example, has 4 skills prior to level 15.

1. Mysticism
2. Diplomacy
3. Perception
4. Piloting

I already converted my build to avoiding any Solarian powers with saves. Save for Supernova, which I don't intend to use past level 9 anymore. So that I can go lower on Charisma. I'll have 16 Charisma until the character hits 20.

The thing is, I did that to keep up with all of the other characters, so I didn't mechanically fall behind.

I *can* make it work, but it isn't anywhere near as easy, or as...

Hwalsh,

Please stop being so defensive. Other people's opinions are as valid as yours. You've made your very strong argument, they have made theirs.

The Exchange

Just because one class is different in regards to thing X from the other classes who all do thing X the same way doesn't mean it's wrong. I think it's clear that while the Starfinder team had some conventions they generally stuck to they were also willing to break from them. The clearest example of that is the Mystic class. Every other class gets an option to choose from a pool of things at select levels. But the mystic must pick a path at level 1 and gain only that path's things with no variation as far as class abilities go. It's definitely a head scratcher to me as to why they're different but that doesn't make them wrong or that they need a fix in future books. Just that they do X differently than any other class does X.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The challenge was then laid out:
"Show me I am wrong. Show me a Solarian build that gets to at least +8 from attack stat, gets to at least 16 Resolve at level 20, gets to at least a +16 in all three saves, and gets to use 6-7 skill points per level at level 20 in order to use all 6 Sidreal Influence skills and still have a Starship Combat role covered."

Human Solarian:

Starting: 16 13 10 10 10 14

level 20: Str 26 Dex 20 Con 18 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 22

Fortitude +16 (Default), Reflex +16 (+5 Ring), Will +16 (Iron Will)

Theme: Ace Pilot +1 Skill, Skill Adept freebie skill #1 = Pilot, Freebie Skill 2 = Bluff

Skills to spend: 4 base, 1 racial bonus, 2 INT = 7

Starship role: Pilot

Starship Pilot: Pilot Skill 20 ranks, +1 Theme, +5 Dex, +3 In-class bonus = 29... Given the current scaling of all stunts with 10 + 2x Ship Tier you'd need to have a minimum of a +2 modifier like from Skill Synergy to bring down the change to make the DC to a roll of a 19. This is of course assuming your group *hates* you and will not let your actions be one of the 2 capable of getting a Computer advantage (which can be up to +10 making the necessary roll a 9).

Attack bonus modifier from Str = +8

Resolve = 1/2 level (10) + Ability score (6) = 16

All saving throws at a +16.

Can assume at least 1 feat spent on Heavy Armor and obviously Iron Will. Other classes lacking more favorable offensive options will likely take Longarm Proficiency and Weapon Specialization/Versatility.

And this example is not to say that Envoys, Operatives, Mystics, Mechanics, or Technomancers have a difficult time doing this. Due to how the other classes get insight bonuses, their Starship role should be far more manageable since by level 20 they will have a +6 with Mystics and Envoys going higher.

Soldiers on the other hand are in the same boat as the Solarian, with getting up to roughly a +29 in piloting before considering how easy it is to potentially spend a feat on Skill Focus to get a +32. If it is a Guard Soldier it may even be a +33 (the benefit of increasing max Dex on armor encourages a 22 Dex).

I also want to say, HWalsh, this above build is also to not say "you're wrong".

I do agree with 100% that the Solarian has to make far broader decisions than other classes. I'm not sure I agree with you that this is an issue that requires Paizo to fix it via a new Revelation, or an errata on skill points.


I think the issue comes from the differences in how people value less tangible benefits. A solarian can teleport as far as he can see at level 9 after 3 rounds of combat and do it every three rounds (Ray of Light). What is the value of this ability? It is obviously valuable, but how much is difficult to quantify.

Hwalsh, you have done an excellent job of quantifying the DPR, saves and other numerical values which easy to quantify and easily compared other classes. The issue arises however in that some people believe that the value of hard to quantify abilities offsets the numerical weakness that you have demonstrated. Since this is not easily quantified only a great deal of game play can give a very good picture of whether the abilities revelations provide sufficiently offset the weakness you have demonstrated. Since no one has that level of game play experience with the game as a whole much less with the solarian class it is going to be subjective. You are getting frustrated that people are making their opinions on this point. You ask them to provide math but that isn't really feasible.


oldskool wrote:

The challenge was then laid out:

"Show me I am wrong. Show me a Solarian build that gets to at least +8 from attack stat, gets to at least 16 Resolve at level 20, gets to at least a +16 in all three saves, and gets to use 6-7 skill points per level at level 20 in order to use all 6 Sidreal Influence skills and still have a Starship Combat role covered."

Human Solarian:

Starting: 16 13 10 10 10 14

level 20: Str 26 Dex 20 Con 18 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 22

Fortitude +16 (Default), Reflex +16 (+5 Ring), Will +16 (Iron Will)

This fails right here. You had to use Iron Will. I did not have to use Iron Will on any other class.


oldskool wrote:
I also want to say, HWalsh, this above build is also to not say "you're wrong".

I appreciate that you said this, but here is the problem. You had to use "Iron Will" to do it. I didn't have to use it on any other class. If I am assuming using a feat, then every other class would be +2 higher and we would still be in the same boat.

Feats are for bonuses. Not for meeting the bare minimum.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:
oldskool wrote:

The challenge was then laid out:

"Show me I am wrong. Show me a Solarian build that gets to at least +8 from attack stat, gets to at least 16 Resolve at level 20, gets to at least a +16 in all three saves, and gets to use 6-7 skill points per level at level 20 in order to use all 6 Sidreal Influence skills and still have a Starship Combat role covered."

Human Solarian:

Starting: 16 13 10 10 10 14

level 20: Str 26 Dex 20 Con 18 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 22

Fortitude +16 (Default), Reflex +16 (+5 Ring), Will +16 (Iron Will)

This fails right here. You had to use Iron Will. I did not have to use Iron Will on any other class.

The challenge quoted by you does not state "and don't use feats or other resources".

In the build example I propose that other classes will likely spend 2 feats to improve offense making the expense a wash all things considered. Also, Mechanics will likely want Iron Will. They have the lowest base save of all classes in that category.

So now you're just pushing the goal post purely to make an argument for the sake of it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:

It does have bearing, because you are comparing solarian to other classes that may be built sub-optimally for saves, but not for what their intended purpose was.

If you want to compare saves for your solarian that raises int and cha to other classes that also make choices to raise non save related stats, then it is relevant.

No, it doesn't have bearing.

It really doesn't.

You are talking about a class that is told, "Don't use one of your class abilities to the fullest."

Then another that says, "Also, don't raise your resolve stat really high. Yes, we know literally every other class does it, but you should't."

Charisma is their resolve stat, and while Charisma is problematic in general, it isn't automatically crippling as a resolve stat... See what I did with an Envoy...

You're telling people, "You don't want your primary stat to actually be your primary stat." With this class. That is the only class that has that issue.

And you may not see that as a problem, and you are welcome to believe that, but I do see it as a problem, and I think I have mechanically proved it is an issue.

I set out a clear set of expectations based on what all of the other classes *could do* and then put them against the benchmarks in the AA that Paizo created.

Only one of those isn't lining up.

And yes, you can ignore Sidreal Influence and make the Solarian work.

It is pretty much what Solarian players do actually.

As far as I am concerned my Solarian, for example, has 4 skills prior to level 15.

1. Mysticism
2. Diplomacy
3. Perception
4. Piloting

I already converted my build to avoiding any Solarian powers with saves. Save for Supernova, which I don't intend to use past level 9 anymore. So that I can go lower on Charisma. I'll have 16 Charisma until the character hits 20.

The thing is, I did that to keep up with all of the other characters, so I didn't mechanically fall behind.

I *can* make it work, but it isn't anywhere near as easy, or as...

My main disagreement is with your opinion that a character built not to optimize saves is not optimal. Your opinion of what is optimal and mine don't align. You repeating that my opinion is invalid doesn't make it so.


HWalsh wrote:
oldskool wrote:
I also want to say, HWalsh, this above build is also to not say "you're wrong".

I appreciate that you said this, but here is the problem. You had to use "Iron Will" to do it. I didn't have to use it on any other class. If I am assuming using a feat, then every other class would be +2 higher and we would still be in the same boat.

Feats are for bonuses. Not for meeting the bare minimum.

You're welcome.

Technomancers and Mystics also have two poor saves. The Solarian actually has a lot in common with both them there.

A level 20 Mystic:

Str 10 Dex 26 Con 20 Int 10 Wis 26 Cha 18

Fort 6 + 5 = 11 (with ring = 16)
Reflex 6 + 8 = 14, this is not +16, and needs Lightening Reflexes to hit 16
Will 12 + 8 = 20

A level 20 Technomancer:

Str 10 Dex 26 Con 20 Int 26 Wis 18 Cha 10

Fort 6 + 5 = 11 (with ring = 16)
Reflex 6 + 8 = 14, but again this is not a 16 so Lightening Reflexes is needed to hit 16
Will 12 + 4 = 16

I disagree that the Technomancer is just an outlier. If you do that, then you're just adding favor to your own argument about the Solarian by completely dismissing another class for the sake of your own talking point.

But I'll concede that other classes can get can get to the +16 base line easier. I'll even concede the Mechanic doesn't, at level 20, need Iron Will if you plan to spend on the resistance rings.

Hypotheical 20 "ranged" Mechanic:

Str 10 Dex 26 Con 18 Int 26 Wis 20 cha 10

Fort 12 + 4 = 16
Reflex 12 + 8 = 20
Will 6 + 5 = 11 (16 with a +5 ring).

The Envoy and Operative can pull the same thing off with Fortitude saves if we're purely discussing level 20 with a plan to spend the wealth for a +5 ring. Sure. They don't need a save enhancing feat under these hypothetical conditions either.

But still, the point still stands that a Solarian does in fact have a lot broader decision making on how they balance things out. Seems like a no-brainer.

401 to 450 of 579 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Starfinder / Starfinder General Discussion / So lets talk about the Solarian problem... All Messageboards