Comparing starfinder to pathfinder is wrong. In pathfinder, you can build someone with a 20 DPR or 300 DPR at level 12. In starfinder you will never see that kind of discrepancy in the same class.
Hmm...I dunno. Plasma Pistol Soldier vs Reaction Cannon/Arty Laser soldier would be pretty close to that (The exact numbers are off but the level of difference is not too wrong.)
I can write a adventure with nothing but skill checks and no combat and still give out experience points with rules as written. Your point is not borne out by the facts.
Sure and I could do the same with basically any RPG BUT the majority of the mechanics and rules and classes are combat focused. That adventure you'd make with only skill checks? It wouldn't be a very good Starfinder adventure.
It might be a good Gumshoe adventure but you are going to make anyone playing a Soldier utterly miserable, as they don't even have Perception as a class skill to fall back on let alone any class features to help.
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Comparing starfinder to pathfinder is wrong. In pathfinder, you can build someone with a 20 DPR or 300 DPR at level 12. In starfinder you will never see that kind of discrepancy in the same class.Hmm...I dunno. Plasma Pistol Soldier vs Reaction Cannon/Arty Laser soldier would be pretty close to that (The exact numbers are off but the level of difference is not too wrong.)
I can write a adventure with nothing but skill checks and no combat and still give out experience points with rules as written. Your point is not borne out by the facts.Sure and I could do the same with basically any RPG BUT the majority of the mechanics and rules and classes are combat focused. That adventure you'd make with only skill checks? It wouldn't be a very good Starfinder adventure.
It might be a good Gumshoe adventure but you are going to make anyone playing a Soldier utterly miserable, as they don't even have Perception as a class skill to fall back on let alone any class features to help.
That was not the thrust of your argument and your making assumptions on what is or isn't fun. The facts are that you can make adventures without combat.
Bypassing a combat encounter that you don't have to have is often worth the experience points in and of itself in most Paizo written adventures.
The facts are that there are many play styles supported by the rules. presenting your opinion as fact doesn't make it so.
That was not the thrust of your argument and your making assumptions on what is or isn't fun. The facts are that you can make adventures without combat.
Bypassing a combat encounter that you don't have to have is often worth the experience points in and of itself in most Paizo written adventures.
The facts are that there are many play styles supported by the rules. presenting your opinion as fact doesn't make it so.
The thrust of my argument? I think you are mistaking me with the other person you are talking to.
And I can very much say that Starfinder is a combat heavy game, design-wise. It can be forced into other shapes but if you have even a single Soldier in the game and you try to make it entirely non-combat it's going to be a miserable experience for them as their class is entirely combat focused.
Fair enough, RAW you can gain XP for 'defeating encounters' so that can mean a non-combat solution, I concede that point. However as far as I can tell, there are no real rules for handling non-combat encounters (there are attitude rules but that only tells me any modifier to my rolls). The game has very clearly laid out rules for the process of combat which can be applied to almost all situations whereas there's no rules or process for bartering or negotiations. The tools that characters are given are skewed heavily in favor of murdering and looting, with no major, tangible incentive for building a character that excels out of combat built into the ruleset. Sure you could build an adventure without combat, but what are the rules for how an encounter is concluded? Is it one check or a series, and what are the DCs for a check? Combat is over because the rules say the enemy is dead at 0 hit points, social encounters end when the GM says so. This is all based on my own reading and if I'm wrong I'll happily admit to it, but the way I see it there's no good mechanical reason to build a character without combat in mind.
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That was not the thrust of your argument and your making assumptions on what is or isn't fun. The facts are that you can make adventures without combat.
Bypassing a combat encounter that you don't have to have is often worth the experience points in and of itself in most Paizo written adventures.
The facts are that there are many play styles supported by the rules. presenting your opinion as fact doesn't make it so.
The thrust of my argument? I think you are mistaking me with the other person you are talking to.
And I can very much say that Starfinder is a combat heavy game, design-wise. It can be forced into other shapes but if you have even a single Soldier in the game and you try to make it entirely non-combat it's going to be a miserable experience for them as their class is entirely combat focused.
Once again the facts don't bear that out. The game is only as combat heavy as you make it.
No, a given adventure is only as combat heavy as you make it. You can pretty conclusively work out what percentage of the rules are combat-related.
I also stand by my point that if you make a purely non-combat Starfinder adventure, you are not using the game remotely to it's strengths and will be leaving characters out of the game/non-contributing. Much like how you COULD make a combat-focused Gumshoe game but it's a waste of the system.
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No, a given adventure is only as combat heavy as you make it. You can pretty conclusively work out what percentage of the rules are combat-related.
I also stand by my point that if you make a purely non-combat Starfinder adventure, you are not using the game remotely to it's strengths and will be leaving characters out of the game/non-contributing. Much like how you COULD make a combat-focused Gumshoe game but it's a waste of the system.
That's your opinion. But its not up to you how to tell others how to play the game.
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That's your opinion. But its not up to you how to tell others how to play the game.No, a given adventure is only as combat heavy as you make it. You can pretty conclusively work out what percentage of the rules are combat-related.
I also stand by my point that if you make a purely non-combat Starfinder adventure, you are not using the game remotely to it's strengths and will be leaving characters out of the game/non-contributing. Much like how you COULD make a combat-focused Gumshoe game but it's a waste of the system.
It's not an opinion that making a Starfinder campaign without any combat is a poor use of the system. It invalidates the combat classes and Starfinder doesn't have enough social systems to do anything beyond the basics of roleplaying. That's a fact.
No one's saying you're not allowed to run that campaign, but don't act like it's somehow a subjective opinion that the rules of Starfinder support a purely social game just as well as it does a combat game.
Guys can we stay on topic? How you do or do not want your campaigns to be is at best a tangential issue.
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Not sure if this got addressed earlier or not.
Radiation - folks are saying this power is useless against armoured foes. The environmental protection for your armour actually has to be activated for it to be in play. It takes a standard action to do that.
So, now you've dropped an AoE that will affect creatures in the first round, and cost them standard actions in the next round if they don't want to be affected again.
That's a pretty huge debuff.
Plus, there are any number of opponents who don't wear armour.
There are certainly going to be times when it just isn't worth dropping the radiation, but they are situational.
Well, I keep seeing arguments about how the soldier is supposed to be better, or how the other abilities are worth the trade-off (or aren't), or how other classes face the same, or a worse problem, how you don't have to buy a weapon so you just buy a ring of resistance, and so on and so forth.
I find myself wanted to play with this system a lot, so I'm going to be spending the next couple of days putting together level 10 examples of each class and see how they stack up against each other.
Personally, when it comes to game styles, I am of the opinion that games are most fun when everyone has at least something to do in every encounter, and I think this system was built to facilitate that. Looking at the classes, and how they're all at least 75% BAB (and with item level counting for so much damage, a leveled small arm still far outshines a simple weapon in relative terms), and all get at least 4 skills per level, I think Paizo wanted to give "fighters" something to do outside of a fight, and to give "wizards" something to do besides lob spells. That being said, that's the generally philosophy I'm going to attempt to build these guys with this approach in mind.
However, there is a STRONG plurality of book space dedicated to combat rules, and it's natural to look to those options when putting a character together. This in mind, I'm hoping we'll see that most classes all offer a meaningful contribution in combat situations, and can be built with a certain mechanical niche in mind whilst also being able to afford a few sacrifices to improve their out-of-combat utility a bit. In my own game, at least, if a class does not achieve these things, it needs tweaking. So these are the questions I want to answer about each class.
Can it's fulfill the intended role of the build?
How much can it do outside that role? Can it make sacrifices to achieve this without crippling itself?
How does it compare to other classes filling this role? In this case, I'm not saying everyone needs to do soldier-like damage, but in one combat round, could an envoy buffing the provide a contribution to the fight that is as meaningful as a soldier's damage? Opinion will probably come into play here, as does GMing style.
Does the class offer build diversity, or does it only have one build that can keep up with other classes that offer more variety?
Here is the template imma use for the classes. I'll put them up with spoilers to avoid another wall of text.
One thing I love about starfinder is that all classes have
Class & Race
Speed: 30 ft, Initiative: +0
hp: 0, rp: 5
EAC: 10, KAC
Fort: +0, Ref: +0, Will: +0
Ranged Attacks:
Melee Attacks:
Skills
Feats:
Class Abilities:
Racial Abilities:
Gear:
I'll also follow up each with my brief, personal analysis (though I'm hardly a pro), and, if they need it, maybe a couple ideas for tweaking them.
I'll say up front that I'm in the "Solarians need a slight buff" camp, but imma try to be objective. I actually suspect that the soldier may actually just be too good.
In the interest of seeing build variety at work, I'm going to make two characters of each class, and I may try to squeeze out an extra melee build or two to test exactly how much of an impact it will have on build effectiveness.
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That's your opinion. But its not up to you how to tell others how to play the game.No, a given adventure is only as combat heavy as you make it. You can pretty conclusively work out what percentage of the rules are combat-related.
I also stand by my point that if you make a purely non-combat Starfinder adventure, you are not using the game remotely to it's strengths and will be leaving characters out of the game/non-contributing. Much like how you COULD make a combat-focused Gumshoe game but it's a waste of the system.
It's not an opinion that making a Starfinder campaign without any combat is a poor use of the system. It invalidates the combat classes and Starfinder doesn't have enough social systems to do anything beyond the basics of roleplaying. That's a fact.
No one's saying you're not allowed to run that campaign, but don't act like it's somehow a subjective opinion that the rules of Starfinder support a purely social game just as well as it does a combat game.
And your misquoting me to make your point. So no, your not dealing in facts. You cannot dictate what is fun to anyone. So don't pretend like your an authority on how the game is played.
Not sure if this got addressed earlier or not.
Radiation - folks are saying this power is useless against armoured foes. The environmental protection for your armour actually has to be activated for it to be in play. It takes a standard action to do that.
So, now you've dropped an AoE that will affect creatures in the first round, and cost them standard actions in the next round if they don't want to be affected again.
That's a pretty huge debuff.Plus, there are any number of opponents who don't wear armour.
There are certainly going to be times when it just isn't worth dropping the radiation, but they are situational.
I believe the Radiation power is intended to work against those in armor. There are various reasons to think the fluff describing this ability has no direct connection the the environmental radiation rules. For example:
--In the environmental rules section, the level of radiation is tied to the DC to resist it. But the DC of the Solarian's ability is determined by an entirely different batch of rules.
--In the environmental rules section, radiation can cause radiation sickness, which moves people along the physical disease track. But none of those effects line up with the effect of the Solarian's Radiation revelation (Sickened, but no other effect).
Anyway, there's a couple threads, and at least one FAQ, on this very question.
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No offense, but why wouldn't anyone just keep the enviroseal on the minute they wake up (or start the adventuring day)? I mean, at the extreme worst it lasts 24h and it becomes a no brainer as you ascend tiers and it starts lasting a preposterous amount of time.
Because then you're walking around places with face masks and helmets sealing you from people's view, or active force fields showing environmental suits are activated. Stuff that probably negatively impacts social interaction in general.
Plus, once the suits environment protection is used up, it needs to be recharged and replenished. Which would cost Mr Average Mook credits at some stage.
Now, also consider all the creatures who don't have armour. Because this revelation is relevant to more than just combats involving armoured enemies.
So, if someone is walking around, say Absalom Station, then there's no good reason to be chewing through your environmental protection. Save it for when there's an emergency and you might actually need that air!
Actually recharging environmental protections is specifically called as free...
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Actually recharging environmental protections is specifically called as free...
Time is money, as the old saying goes.
How many days are you going to have to go and find a recharging station to recharge your environment suit while the air around you is perfectly fine, before you just go "to hell with this"
And before you tell me it's only 1 minute to recharge, that time isn't including time to travel to the station, wait in line and deal with whomever happens to be there at the time.
If you have a DM running everyone around with environment protection constantly on, then I'd be calling that fairly unreasonable.
But, different games mean different things I guess.
I agree in general with what you said it was really just a quibble.
I don't think it's really that unreasonable to expect enemies in a hostile situation to maybe probably have their environmental protections on.
Not if you get into a bar fight in Absalom Station maybe, but in a lot of traditional encounters I'd consider it a given.
That said the problem with the Radiation power isn't armor (I agree with Porridge that it's not really clear that environmental protection stops it), but the ability itself. Standard action to provide a mediocre debuff and do a tiny bit of damage isn't all that exciting in the first place. Then it has a fairly small AoE even while attuned which makes its usability kind of niche. Then that mediocre debuff is behind a save (on a class whose DCs aren't always necessarily that great). Then anyone who steps out of its radius is immediately cured.
It's a skill that has a lot of caveats with a best case payout I'd only call okay or pretty good... and this is from someone who loves debuffs.
Alright, so it's going to be several days before I've got anything on other classes together cause I got a game I still have to prep for, but I put together a couple soldiers and a melee solarian, level 10, aiming to make them functional combatants (The fact that they have full BAB, their class choices are "weapon" or "armor," and the Alien Archives places them in the combat class graft, I think it's pretty clear this is intended to be their primary role) while also having a bit of stuff to do in out-of-combat situations, so we can see what they have to give up. Here's what I've got so far.
To see how their stats add up, let's put the baseline stats of CR 10 monsters here for reference (from Alien Archives). Not bothering with their "poor attack" bonus because a good combat character needs to be able to weather whatever their opponents are geared towards.
Combat monster: 23/25 AC, +12/+8 saves, 165 hp, 17 DC abilities, +24/+19 skills, +22 attacks, 2d10+10/4d6/+10 damage
Expert monster: 23/24 AC, +13/+9 saves, 150 hp, 19 DC abilities, +24/+19 skills, +20/+18 attacks, 3d4+10/2d8+10 damage
Spellcaster monster: 22/23 AC, +13/+9 saves, 140 hp, 19 DC abilities (23 DC 4th level spell), +24/+19 skills, +18 attacks, 3d4+10/2d8+10 damage
I started with a sharpshot soldier, because I heard they're pretty good and I wanted to, on paper, compare "gun soldier" and "melee Solarian" to see the overall viability as melee. Melee soldier comes after to see how the Solarian performs against another class in the same role.
Vesk Mercenary Soldier 10
Str 15, Dex 23, Con 20
Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Speed: 20 ft, Initiative: +6
hp: 76, sp: 110, rp: 11
EAC: 29, KAC 33
Fort: +16, Ref: +11, Will: +14
Ranged Attacks: +17 (or +14/+14) Heavy Reaction Cannon (3d10+13), +16 Advanced Semi-Auto Pistol (2d6+8)
Melee Attacks: +12 Blaze Flame Doshko (2d8+12), +12 Unarmed Strike (1d3+15)
Skills: Athletics +12, Engineering +16, Piloting +15, Medicine +13
Feats: Weapon Focus (Heavy Weapons), Deadly Aim, Supressive Fire, Spry Cover, Slippery Shooter, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Engineering), Master Crafter, Sky Jockey
Class Abilities: Primary Fighting Style (Sharpshot), Gear Boosts (Bullet Barrage +3, Armored Advantage), Weapon Specialization, Sniper's Aim, Focus Fire, Intense Focus, Secondary Fighting Style (Guard), Armor Training
Racial Abilities: Armor Savant, Fearless, Low-Light Vision, Natural Weapons
Theme Abilities: Theme Knowledge, Grunt
Gear:
General concept and notes: Classic space soldier in bulky armor with a big gun, with a working knowledge of artillery, engineering, and battlefield medicine. He can EASILY hit the AC of a combat monster, well enough to be able to full attack pretty much any time they have any sort of debuff to their AC on, and has a very good chance of shaking off crippling effects from spellcaster monsters, and even his Ref isn't terrible. His average damage per attack is 29. In the a conceptual vacuum, average numbers say this guy can solo a CR 10 monster by trading blows with it and still do it two more times with a short rest, and since he has the saves to reasonably resist someone trying to stop him from doing anything but stand there and out-shoot you, he's in a decent position to do it.
The thing that struck me when putting this guy together was just how many feats he had. Are they 100% optimized? No. But he already has solid stats, so I picked up some others to give him a few more things to do than "shoot." He can lay down some supportive fire for the party with his weapon, and with skill focus and master craftsman, he can put together any low level item he might happen to have need of in half an hour, assuming he has some supplies on hand (he had several thousand credits leftover). It got to the point where I grabbed Iron Will and Great Fortitude because "Why not? There's room in there." Sky Jocky offers a little more mobility than he'd normally have in heavy armor, and he was easily able to pump up Con and Wis to improve saves. Out of combat, he can craft FAST, disable locks, treat wounds, take part in athletic challenges, and make any sort of knowledge checks related to engineering or medicine.[/spoiler]
So let's see how a Solarian stacks up. I had started with Vesk on the Soldier just to keep things basic, but it turned out to be a very optimal race for the build, so I looked for something that could be equally good for a melee solarian. Large creatures quickly became a priority because with a 10 foot space and a 10 foot reach, they can threaten a 30x30 area, making it much easier to be in range to full-attack something.
Shobhad Priest (The Cycle) Solarian 10
Speed: 30 ft, Initiative: +2
hp: 76, sp: 90, rp: 10
EAC: 27, KAC 30
Fort: +13, Ref: +7, Will: +13
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14
Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 20
Ranged Attacks: +16 Sentinel Spear (2d6+11)
Melee Attacks: +17 (+14/+14) Solar Weapon (4d6+16)
Skills: Mysticism +16, Athletics +15, Diplomacy +17, Sense Motive +15
Feats: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Stand Still, Weapon Focus (Solar Weapon)
Class Abilities (DC 20): Skill Adept (Bluff & Culture), Solar Manifestation (Weapon - Bludgeoning), Stellar Mode (Stellar +2 dmg, Graviton +2 ref), Stellar Revelations (Plasma Sheathe +5, Dark Matter 4/6, Corona 2d6, Defy Gravity, Soul Furnace), Sidereal Influence +1d6 (Stellar – Diplomacy & Survival, Graviton – Sense Motive & Mysticism), Weapon Specialization, Flashing Strikes, Zenith Revelations (Supernova 11d6, Black Hole 20 ft, Miniature Star 5d6)
Racial Abilities: Four-Armed, Large, Shobhad Ferocity, Darkvision 60 ft, Swift, Weathered
Theme Abilities: Theme Knowledge, Mantle of the Clergy
Gear:Minor Gluon Crystal, Sentinel Spear (Returning Fusion), Defiance Specialist Armor (Thermal Capacitor mkI, Black Force Field, Ring of Resistance MkII, Personal Upgrades (Str +4, Cha +2),
General concept and notes:Kind of a space-monk, is the general idea. His AC is just a little south of the Heavy, but his accuracy is exactly the same. He invested as much as he could afford to into saves and he has lower saves, still having around a 50% chance to fail a dangerous save against a spellcaster. His potential damage, however, is higher than the Heavy's in the right conditions. It's fair to assume be activate most of the time, meaning his average damage per strike is 35, but give him another round to boot up and Corona is putting out another 7 damage on average (and possibly to multiple creatures, especially because he's large). Miniature Star puts out another 17 average damage per round for an average of 2 round, but requires him to reset. It has the added bonus of slowing enemies,keeping them closer to melee, and his attack bonus is high enough that he has a fair chance of keeping them there with Stand Still. His considerable reach also lets this feat help him guard his allies from a lot of angle, and he's easy to flank with.
So in perfect circumstances, he's got quite a bit of damage on the soldier, and quite a bit of it is AoE, and even if these circumstances aren't all met, his average damage is still a bit higher.
Out of combat, he can hold his own in social encounters, but doesn't have the skill points for bluff or intimidate, so he can't cover the full social spectrum like a dedicated face would want, unless he wants to do NOTHING else. I, personally, like a little more variety, so he's still got athletics, and mysticism gives him some esoteric knowledge that could come in handy. One of his revelations gives him minor flight, but the soldier has a jetpack, but his ability isn't powered, and so on. Overall, I'd honestly give a slight edge to the soldier because he has skills on his skill list that are very all-encompassing, while the Solarian gets a lot of skills that tend to function together, kind of forcing all of his skill points into one place.
So at this point, the soldier has naturally better saves because they're not really MAD, and they have so many feats they can easily afford to throw in the extra save booster because why not. The Solarion puts out quite a bit more damage, but has to work harder for it, and is more vulnerable to having the conditions for his damage (being near him) mitigated (and in one more level the Soldier gets his triple attack features, 2 levels ahead of the Solarian).
I've already run into one thing that really bugs me, though, and that's the Solarian's build diversity. The MADness really hurts it in this arena. Here's what I realized. It comes down to the fact that the save boosting stats are extremly dangerous to outright dump for anyone (though more because of AC for dex). Charisma can be dumped if you don't care about being social. Intelligence can be dumped if you don't care about having a lot of skills, or if your class gives you so many already you don't need a ton. And Strength only needs to be high enough to carry your gear (10 is usually fine) unless you're melee. Pretty much every other class can afford to ignore exactly 2 of these stats, letting them boost all their save stats and their class's main stat every level. Solarians, on the other hand, want literally every stat, and they can't have them. You could argue that no one should be able to have everything, and you're right. The problem is that the Solarian is designed in such a way as to require every stat in order to play to its own strengths.
They NEED cha for their class stat, they NEED str for accuracy and damage (so far it seems that the melee solarian is getting hit with a double-whammy), and they WANT int for more skill points. I say want because no, they're not a skill class, they're a combat class, however, they do get class abilities that boost more skills than they can hope to get access too, and extra class skills that may as well not exist. Int is the only stat they can really afford to buff without dropping their performance in their chief role to non-functioning levels. The soldier could easily afford to take skill focus, but the solarian needs iron will and great fortitude, and yes, I do mean need. They are necessities for a Solarian, and a luxury for the Soldier, and the soldier still comes out ahead.
Because they need these feats, and they need heavy armor proficiency because they're spreading themselves too thin to pump dex, their first 3 feats are essentially picked for them. Essentially, having charisma as a necessary stat on a melee character interacts with the other parts of the system in such a way as to mean that there is very little build versatility.
So anyways, they're not crazy off from one another, but between these two, the soldier gets the edge because his damage, while less, is consistent and reliable, while the solarian has a good to fair chance of being shut down somehow before they can get all of their moving parts to come together.
They already have class abilities in place that would indicate they were intended to be a little more skill-savvy, so, since they're already so MAD, I think that an extra 2 skill points per level would be a clear boost to their overall fun without putting them anywhere close to over the top. I think they could still do with some small save boost, but I feel like, comparing these two, that's really all they need to open up a few more fun options.
Or at least I did until I built the melee soldier... I'll put that monster up here either later tonight or tomorrow, because this post took a while to write.
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Something fifth edition has done that I think Starfinder could benefit from.
All stats are saves. No longer fort, will and reflex. Now it's strength, con, Dex, int, wis, Cha. All of them have their own saves. Each class provides a boost to just two of them.
So now everyone is on an even field in terms of saves, and having low stats anywhere can hurt.
By having just three saves, and those three tied specifically to only three stats, you open up a huge problem for save discrepancies.
Ironically despite that 5e has had some serious issues with Int being a garbage stat because it does literally nothing on its own and Int saving throws were comparatively rare.
Yeah, 5e sorta went to 'Everything is a save' but didn't really commit. 90% of stuff is Dex, Wisdom or Constituion still.
I'm actually going to go with the dual-stated saves in my game, give Solarians 6 skill per level, and call it good. Even from the GM's chair, it bothers me that they feel blocked out of making much use of their extra class skills and siderel influence, and I hardly think that opening that up is going to break my game. The other issues, I think are really more to do with the utility imbalance of ability scores than with the classes themselves.
Martinaj, I am curious as to seeing a ranged solarian build to compare to the ranged soldier.
1 thing it will do is remove the need for STR which lets you pump all the save stats, and Cha
Yeah, I've got one of them in the works too, and just from what I've seen from class abilities, I think they'll be a lot closer to the soldier than the melee counterparts are, which, if true, would reinforce the idea of it being an issue of having to add str into the mix just spreads them too thin.
So what about some good ole stat condensing? Like if you glom strength and constitution (for say Body stat?) together along with with wisdom and charisma (Can't think of a good name for that)?
Spirit perhaps?
You forget though, having 2 "low" saves allows a Technomancer to use 2 Resistance Rings, something a Solarian can't do. Which applies (up to) an additional +5 to one of those low saves.
Can you? Reading the item description that doesn't seem clear to me.
Ranged Solarian has some pretty sweet stuff. Dex focus helps pad out your bad save. Not needing to worry about strength lets you pump your will or your skil checks or your HP or just get better Cha.
You also get to take full advantage of Solar Armor which is awesome because truth be told Solar Weapon is kind of terrible.
On the flip side you lose out on some of your sweetest damage buffs and more than a few powers are hard to leverage if you're playing at range too.
Anyways, quickly threw together a Skittermander (Dex/Cha -int is pretty much the perfect array, plus they're adorable) Solarian 10 and tried to copy the basic structure of martinaj's soldier build as much as possible so the numbers are easier to compare.
I'm not gonna do a full break down right now but the basics:
Str 13 Dex 24 Con 14
Int 08 Wis 16 Cha 18
HP72 Stam 90 RP 10
Fort 11 Ref 12 Will 10
Init +7
EAC 30 KAC 31
Ranged Attack: +18 (+14/+14) 3d10+10/12
Feats: Weapon Proficiency(Longarm), Weapon Proficiency(Heavy), Versatile Specialization, Weapon Focus(Heavy), Great Fortitude.
Important Items: Heavy Reaction Cannon, Freebooter Armor 3, Personal Upgrade Dex +4, Pesonal Upgrade Cha +2, Ring of Resistance Mk2
The big takeaway is that ranged Solarian is really strapped for feats. Ow.
The Con the Solarian has to give up to keep their Cha up stands out as another big issue.
Worth noting that while the damage is comparable right now, bullet barrage outscales photon mode and in three more levels Soldier gets to add an extra +2d6 while full attacking
Oh, also:
To see how their stats add up
I could just be bad at math but it looks like you added the +2 from the ring of resistance to every save instead of just the lowest base save.
Ah yup, I did. Hadn't noticed that change, but it actually seems like it makes the save issue more pronounced.
I think Squiggit's build which has awesome saves shows that bad saves on the Solarian isn't something tied to the class, but rather to how some people believe that a Solarian should be built.
Any other class that decides to do melee instead of ranged will have much worse saves. Try build a technomancer based on STR and his saves will be truly awful. And yet, melee does more damage on every class than ranged.
This is a point worth noting. I stil think the Solarian has issues, but ultimately its biggest problems are systemic ones. Melee combat kind of sucks. Soldiers and Solarians have mechanics specifically to improve melee and still have issues, trying to run a melee build on anyone else just ends up being a disaster.
A Solarian doesn't need higher than a 14CHA - sure his ability DC will hurt for it, but then I hear all the responses that a Solarian shouldn't be built for save or suck abilities. A Solarian doesn't need INT, though INT helps round out skills.
A lot of the save inducing skills really are kind of underwhelming, but the bigger draw of Charisma is the extra resolve points and being down on those sucks. I guess that really comes down to how much you value 1 RP(+social skills) vs +1 will(+perception, sense motive, etc) vs +1 fort and +level stamina.