Ring of fangs, vesknatural attack, and hammer fist interaction?

[Ravingdork]

How does a ring of fangs (Dark Suns #2), a vesk's natural attacks, and hammer fist interact with one another, if at all?

My vesk has all three, plus the soldier's Melee Striker class ability.

[EC Gamer Guy]

Vesk's natural attacks and hammerfist? No. They both essentially give you a damage for a fist attack.

No idea what the Ring of Fangs is.

Melee striker should work with all 3 assuming they are melee attacks.

[Ravingdork]

Ring of fangs gives you a natural bite attack, which does lethal piercing unarmed strike damage, plus twice your level if you're over level 2.

[Rikkan]

Soldier - Hammer fist wrote:

These unarmed attacks don’t benefit from other abilities that apply specifically to unarmed attacks (such as the Improved Unarmed Strike feat).

Vesk wrote:

Vesk are always considered armed. They can deal 1d3 lethal damage with unarmed strikes and the attack doesn’t count as archaic. Vesk gain a unique weapon specialization with their natural weapons at 3rd level, allowing them to add 1–1/2 × their character level to their damage rolls for their natural weapons (instead of just adding their character level, as usual).

Don't know about the ring, but the Vesk ability and hammer fist don't interact.

[Ravingdork]

That limitation is only for things that apply specifically to unarmed strikes. Weapon specialization applies to weapons in general, and the second sentence applies to natural attacks. Ergo, the limitation may not actually apply.

[Ostarion]

Ravingdork wrote:

That limitation is only for things that apply specifically to unarmed strikes. Weapon specialization applies to weapons in general, and the second sentence applies to natural attacks. Ergo, the limitation may not actually apply.

Exactly. Since player racial options alway says that its a "natural weapon" that deals "unarmed strike" its no longer specifically an unarmed attack since it has the "natural weapon" descriptor, therefor it is no longer specific enough to fall under the hammer fist ruling of "These unarmed attacks don’t benefit from other abilities that apply specifically to unarmed attacks"

Other monster entries also have natural attacks like acid spit that are clearly not unarmed strikes, and other entries like the bloodbrother mention effects that apply when hit by a natural weapon or unarmed strike, indicating that they are seen as separable.

Hence natural weapons and natural attacks, as a category, are not specific enough to fall under the ruling of Hammer fist when determining the weapon specialization a character can apply to attack with that natural weapon.

[Patryn-]

Regarding Natural Weapons and Ring of Fangs. They both indicate you get a "special version of weapon specialization" with your unarmed attacks. Natural weapons grants 1.5x and Ring of Fangs grants 2x. It isn't a typed bonus but since they are both granting the same thing (weapon specialization) I'd assume that you just apply the higher one.

Hammer fist I'm not sure. The intention seems to be making your unarmed strike equal to a battleglove and the battleglove would use your Basic Weapon Specialization so I'm guessing no but again not sure.

A little off topic but Ring of Fangs and Improved Unarmed strike seem pretty good.

1d6 + 8 + Str at 4th level
2d6 + 16 + Str at 8th level
3d6 + 24 + Str at 12th level
5d6 + 30 + Str at 15th level
7d6 + 40 + Str at 20th level

Level 20 fully optimized would be a soldier with melee striker for 7d6 + 53 = average of 77.5 x 3 = 232.5 DPR vs Curve blade, dimensional slice 12d10 + 33 = average of 99 x 3 = 297 DPR.

Not too bad for 315 credits and a feat. Does cost a worn magic item slot though and there's no way to enhance it with fusions (that I'm aware of).

[Rikkan]

Ravingdork wrote:

That limitation is only for things that apply specifically to unarmed strikes. Weapon specialization applies to weapons in general, and the second sentence applies to natural attacks. Ergo, the limitation may not actually apply.

What? No. That is silly. Claiming the special weapon specialization doesn't apply to their unarmed strike is clearly not the intent.

Vesks gain a special rule for their unarmed strike, the weapon spec clearly is supposed to benefit that unarmed strike. Thus it doesn't interact with Hammer Fist.

Guess you made a mistake since they named the ability 'natural weapons' instead of something like improved unarmed fighting.

[Ravingdork]

I didn't make any mistakes. My character sheets all list correct values. I merely proposed one side of an argument in this thread.

[FiddlersGreen]

Relevant text:

gain a special version of the Weapon Specialization feat that adds double your level to the damage of these unarmed attacks (rather than adding your level).

The item appears to give you a special version of weapon spec that adds damage to the unarmed attacks given by the ring. I think the ring works with improved unarmed strikes, but certainly not hammer fist.

So the ring special version of weapon spec replaces the vesk's normal weapon spec with unarmed strikes.