Should Sargava's Alignment Be Evil?

[Delightful]

Basically what the subject name asks. Should Sargava, a colonist nation where Chelexian colonists rule over Mwangi natives who are treated like second-class citizens and a labor force, be Evil-aligned (likely Lawful Evil to be specific) instead of Neutral? It's just kind of hard for me to understand why Cheliax and Razmiran are labelled as Lawful Evil for being brutally authoritarian and Sargava isn't.

Thoughts, feelings, opinions?

Oh, um, this will probably be impossible but could we keep discussions on IRL colonialism to a minimum. Pretty sure that will get the thread locked.

[Rysky]

The alignments in countries “stats” are for the majority/average citizen, not jut the people in charge.

[Silvermane...]

[awakened horse stops chewing hay]

There are many factors that go into the evaluation of whether or not a group of people can be called 'evil'. Is most of the evil due to a ruling elite that can muster troops, gold and influence? or are the citizens in their daily lives doing the evil? Is it evil to take a job in a distant colony when your kids are starving, whether you know or not that your bosses support the displacement of natives? The answer probably lies somewhere a certain shade of grey, and underlies the basic right for everyone to exist after they're born. Everything is a game of who's got the resources, in the end. Morality acts as a dampener in the grand spring-mass system of dog eat dog, and is also in the same breath wielded by the ruling elite as a lubricant to enable the mustering of human capital.

[/awakened horse stops chewing hay]

[thistledown]

Maybe 80 years ago. Then Cheliax went to hell, and they became independent. When Cheliax got its act together and asked for the back taxes, they hired the shackles pirates to say No for them.

But with independence came having to play more nicely with the natives.

[Coidzor]

Rysky wrote:

The alignments in countries “stats” are for the majority/average citizen, not jut the people in charge.

That doesn't quite seem right for Cheliax and Razmiran, unless Hell's Rebels or Hell's Vengeance retconned the average Cheliaxian's alignment. The average person in those places would be some flavor of Neutral, while the rulers are pretty thoroughly in the deep end of the alignment pool.

[Rysky]

Coidzor wrote:

Rysky wrote:

The alignments in countries “stats” are for the majority/average citizen, not jut the people in charge.

That doesn't quite seem right for Cheliax and Razmiran, unless Hell's Rebels or Hell's Vengeance retconned the average Cheliaxian's alignment. The average person in those places would be some flavor of Neutral, while the rulers are pretty thoroughly in the deep end of the alignment pool.

Nah the average citizen in those places tend to lean Evil.

[Delightful]

Rysky wrote:

Coidzor wrote:

Rysky wrote:

The alignments in countries “stats” are for the majority/average citizen, not jut the people in charge.

That doesn't quite seem right for Cheliax and Razmiran, unless Hell's Rebels or Hell's Vengeance retconned the average Cheliaxian's alignment. The average person in those places would be some flavor of Neutral, while the rulers are pretty thoroughly in the deep end of the alignment pool.

Nah the average citizen in those places tend to lean Evil.

Given that both of those places are Evil theocracies I guess it would make sense that most the inhabitants would be Evil because of their respective religions social influence.

[Xenocrat]

I don't think it's practical for >50% of any country's population to be one of nine alignment choices. I prefer to think of it as the biggest alignment, and something like a sizeable majority is probably within one step. I'm sure Cheliax has lots of LN just getting by, as well as mercenary NEs who don't care that much about the letter of the law.

[Ventnor]

A lot of the Sargava-flavored traits talk about how superior your character feels as compared the native inhabitants.

So that does sort of inform what kind of characters tend to come from there.

[Rysky]

Delightful wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Coidzor wrote:

Rysky wrote:

The alignments in countries “stats” are for the majority/average citizen, not jut the people in charge.

That doesn't quite seem right for Cheliax and Razmiran, unless Hell's Rebels or Hell's Vengeance retconned the average Cheliaxian's alignment. The average person in those places would be some flavor of Neutral, while the rulers are pretty thoroughly in the deep end of the alignment pool.

Nah the average citizen in those places tend to lean Evil.

Given that both of those places are Evil theocracies I guess it would make sense that most the inhabitants would be Evil because of their respective religions social influence.

*nods*

[Steve Geddes]

Delightful wrote:

Basically what the subject name asks. Should Sargava, a colonist nation where Chelexian colonists rule over Mwangi natives who are treated like second-class citizens and a labor force, be Evil-aligned (likely Lawful Evil to be specific) instead of Neutral? It's just kind of hard for me to understand why Cheliax and Razmiran are labelled as Lawful Evil for being brutally authoritarian and Sargava isn't.

Thoughts, feelings, opinions?

I agree with you and would probably change the alignment of the country, if it came up in my game.

For me, the alternative is to take the non-evil alignment at face value and infer that most citizens did not have the exploitative attitude which I took as canonical from the various Sargava books/adventures.

[jabberwoky]

I don't believe that the alignment of the Sargava as a country needs to be changed for a few reasons:

1. The country's alignment doesn't really mean much. The justifications for character alignment are built on shaky ground, and so to put an alignment on an entire country made up of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, is problematic. If anything, a country's alignment is short hand for who are the good buys and bad guys, just like character alignment is short hand for who are the good guys and bad guys. Cheliax is to The Empire as to Andoran is to The Rebel Alliance, thus one country is Lawful Evil and the other is Neutral Good. Good, evil or neutral characters can exist in both countries without much problem.

2. Sargava isn't a unified country. But assuming for the moment that character alignment can successfully describe a country, the examples I gave are from unified countries. Sargava, according to its lore, isn't. Eleder is the capital of Sargava that exploits the native population, but it is only the capital because it's one of the only deepwater ports in the country. Kalabuto, the nation's largest city is segregated to a lesser degree, but it holds a larger army and more people and is slightly independent from Eleder because it needs to defend itself from the city state of Mazali. Similarly, the settlements of Port Freedom and Freehold do not particularly recognize Eleder's traditions, as one is essentially a smuggler's port and the other is an egalitarian ranch, both very different from the rule of Eleder. Not to mention all the villages of Mwangi natives who pay lip service to Eleder but little else. Sargava is a patchwork of a cities, settlements and villages held together mostly by Eleder's say-so and a mutual dislike of Mzali.

Those are my two cents on the matter, at least.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a personally abusive post. If you’re looking for clarification on a comment, please be civil in that request.

[Daw]

I would have to go with the average Saragavan tending toward evil. Maybe not as much as in earlier times. Your allignment is also what you accept and condone, not only what you personally do. I understand that this will not sit well with some, but it is my opinion on the subject.