Welcome to Paladin Thread #981236576438976345.3Q. This is about how Lycanthropes can potentially make Paladins fall.
So, Lycanthropes are usually people afflicted with a curse. One of the ways to "cure" it is through Wolfsbane, an alchemical item that grants a reroll on the save of Lycanthropy. Another thing I noted is that Wolfsbane is, in fact, a Poison, and that each dose that grants a reroll in fact causes ability score damage (I believe it's Constitution), which means enough damage would kill them.
I remembered reading a clause that states Paladins cannot (objectively) use Poison, as it is against their code of conduct, and made me realize that if a low level Paladin tried to cure a friend afflicted with Lycanthropy, that he would end up having to use Wolfsbane if he wished his friend to be free of that curse.
However, as I've stated prior, Wolfsbane is a Poison, which Paladins cannot use, and if he tried to have somebody use it on his behalf, it wouldn't be much different than if the Paladin did so himself. So, if a Paladin tried to use Wolfsbane on his friend in any manner (which isn't a guarantee that it would work), would that be grounds for falling, even if he had the best of intentions with its application? He'd actually be more in trouble with his Paladinhood for trying to save his life than by simply ending his curse-addled existence by the pointy end of his sword?
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This is completely false. While Wolfsbane may be listed under poison and can be used for that It also has other uses including curing Lycanthropy. Many if not all things used for healing will cause harm if used improperly. And some medical procedures actually cause damage. Surgery is a perfect example of this. If a paladin falls for using Wolfsbane to cure lycanthropy then they would fall for operating to save someone’s life.
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This is completely false. While Wolfsbane may be listed under poison and can be used for that It also has other uses including curing Lycanthropy. Many if not all things used for healing will cause harm if used improperly. And some medical procedures actually cause damage. Surgery is a perfect example of this. If a paladin falls for using Wolfsbane to cure lycanthropy then they would fall for operating to save someone’s life.
+1, well said.
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The difference between medicine and poison is usually just dosage.
Intent matters.
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Yeaaaah, the paladin's aren't banned from using poisons because "well, my code of conduct says I can't use poison in any situation!" its because its not honorable to weaken or kill your opponents with poisoning. There is nothing dishonorable about curing someone from lycanthropy :P Code of Conduct does have "use the darn common sense" to it even if most people try to find ways to break it.
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As is most often the case, the one thing a Paladin has to fear is a bad GM.
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Paladins of Sarenrae make no mention of the standard code, however based on "The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not" and "I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword."
They can be argued to be allowed to use poison to ensure that they win their battles, especially if it is an unfair fight.
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Hey James.
In the "Inner Sea Gods" Campaign book, there are alternate Paladin codes available for the followers of several deities. The code for Paladins of Abadar explicitly states that they follow the normal Paladin code in addition to their deity specific code. No other alternate codes have this provision - their code is presented as if it is complete. This implies that the alternate codes replace the normal one presented in the CRB. However, as far as I can see it never actually says this explicitly anywhere in ISG.
So, are the deity specific Paladin codes meant to be additions to the normal Paladin codes, or are they wholesale replacements? For example, could a Paladin of Shelyn use knockout poison to capture an evil person if they believe that poison is the only reasonable way to save a potentially redeemable creature without endangering the lives of innocents?
Thanks for your time.
The deity-specific paladin codes are 100% meant to exist the "normal" paladin code. The normal code is for world-neutral generic paladins, and once a paladin worships a deity on Golarion, they're no longer world-neutral and must follow deity specific codes.
If a code doesn't cover a topic, then the paladin needs to extrapolate from the code. In this case, nothing in Shelyn's code says anything about using ANY sort of poison, so she's perfectly fine using knockout poison or any other to help her live up to the code.
(Remember, while poison is often used by assassins and other evil characters, poison itself is NOT evil. Guardian nagas and couatls both have poison that can kill outright, and both of them are lawful good. It's how you use the poison that affects alignment, as with any other tool, not the mere fact that you use it.)
Read that.
Welcome to Paladin Thread #981236576438976345.3Q. This is about how Lycanthropes can potentially make Paladins fall.
So, Lycanthropes are usually people afflicted with a curse. One of the ways to "cure" it is through Wolfsbane, an alchemical item that grants a reroll on the save of Lycanthropy. Another thing I noted is that Wolfsbane is, in fact, a Poison, and that each dose that grants a reroll in fact causes ability score damage (I believe it's Constitution), which means enough damage would kill them.
I remembered reading a clause that states Paladins cannot (objectively) use Poison, as it is against their code of conduct, and made me realize that if a low level Paladin tried to cure a friend afflicted with Lycanthropy, that he would end up having to use Wolfsbane if he wished his friend to be free of that curse.
However, as I've stated prior, Wolfsbane is a Poison, which Paladins cannot use, and if he tried to have somebody use it on his behalf, it wouldn't be much different than if the Paladin did so himself. So, if a Paladin tried to use Wolfsbane on his friend in any manner (which isn't a guarantee that it would work), would that be grounds for falling, even if he had the best of intentions with its application? He'd actually be more in trouble with his Paladinhood for trying to save his life than by simply ending his curse-addled existence by the pointy end of his sword?
Tall folk, you think too much, thats bad, very bad.
Paladin can just look for a cleric to pay for a "cure illnes" spell, and he dont even need to use poison. Also he can use belladona, its a seed that can also cure it if you resist the Fortitude check.
Anyway, even if that method is the only method available in your setting, i think this sittuation is kind of forcing your paladin to loose the powers he have. If you ask me, in that situation, i will just refuse that poison and live with the licantrophy as a way to improve my skills and defeat evil, showing everyone you can be a good aligned lycantrophy if you have enough will strengh.
Also, for everyone.
There are some basic rules that apply for every customized paladin's code in the basic rules book. Its in the paladin's class section and its very clear in some points.
One of them is that paladins CANT'T use poisons, bluffs, or lie. Mostly because they have to be Good Legal regardless from their deitys
The difference between medicine and poison is usually just dosage.
Intent matters.
This
Many times the difference between poison and medicine is merely dosage and application.
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Also, for everyone.
There are some basic rules that apply for every customized paladin's code in the basic rules book. Its in the paladin's class section and its very clear in some points.
One of them is that paladins CANT'T use poisons, bluffs, or lie. Mostly because they have to be Good Legal regardless from their deitys
I think that's a bit of an interpretation issue.
The line from the rule book is
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
If you focus on the clause (not using poison) rather than the intent (act with honor), then sure, no poison. Ever.
Which means that the Paladin can't hand someone an ale. Or take the Pathfinder equivalent of aspirin. Because alcohol is a poison, and aspirin in high doses can cause liver failure.
If a Paladin gives someone Wolfsbane because they're trying to harm them? Then sure, that's a use of poison, and is against the Paladin's code. But if the person knowingly takes the Wolfsbane in an effort to cure the lycanthropy - taking the risk of the harm that the herb can cause - than that's not poisoning. That's medical treatment.
A doctor takes the Hippocratic Oath, and the first rule of that is "Do no harm." But doctor's routinely prescribe medicine with unpleasant (or even sometimes dangerous) side effects. They authorize or perform surgery. Even an injection would be a violation of the oath, because you're harming the person and drawing blood. But we would never accuse a doctor of violating their oath for acting in this fashion, even if, by the letter, it is. Because the wording of the oath (do no harm) is overriden by the intent.
If your table wants to have Paladins live in a kind of existential horror about when the GM will force them to violate the rules of their oath? Well, that's fine. No one will stop you. But that's not the way I would ever play it.
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Part I:
This...
As is most often the case, the one thing a Paladin has to fear is a bad GM.
and...
Many times the difference between poison and medicine is merely dosage and application.
For example
A paladin won't fall by giving an apple to a friend. (I assume we can all agree here.)
But ...
1. Apples contain arsenic
2. Arsenic is a poison
3. Paladin must fall for giving an apple to a friend.
Intent and dosage people... you cannot possibly believe that Sarenrae would punish one of her Paladins for trying to cure someone of a horrid curse of Lycanthropy. It is as ridiculous as falling for giving a friend an apple.
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Part II: (this one is aimed at you paladins)
Let's assume that the mystical powers of Golarion would instantly take away your paladin powers for using wolfsbane this way.
As a paladin of the Dawnflower, if my ally were infected with Lycanthropy and my only option were wolfsbane. I would without question use it, even if it meant I would fall.
This is my ally, my friend! How could I watch him or her become an uncontrollable killing machine and live with myself? I would trade in all my power right now to save him if I could.
It is never wrong to do the right thing.
This is my life as a Paladin. If Sarenrae disapproves, we will have to talk about it later.
I think we are going a bit off topic here talking about different types of poisons.
Guys, there are official poisons lists just to let us know what is a poison and what is not...
The question sounds pretty easy for me: Is that medicine a poison that appears in one of the poisons lists?
If the anwer is "no": doubts resolved
If the answer is "yes": its time to you to decide if the intention and the situation matters.
Regadless what we all have said, i have also a question...Cant just another hero of the group give that medicine to the sick one instead of the paladin? geez, it sounds like you want him to fall because of a good act instead of thinking about something cool to tempt him with the dark side.
Also, for everyone.
There are some basic rules that apply for every customized paladin's code in the basic rules book. Its in the paladin's class section and its very clear in some points.
One of them is that paladins CANT'T use poisons, bluffs, or lie. Mostly because they have to be Good Legal regardless from their deitys
I think that's a bit of an interpretation issue.
Just what i said above. There are official lists for poisons, i dont think we have to break our heads trying to explain ourselves with arguments like "if you make this then even an apple contains poisons" XD. I think thats what the book is talking about when it says that paladins cant use poisons, it's refering to the one's listed in that same book
**EDIT** Welp, the forums ate my original post, so I'll try again. **EDIT**
Let me clear up a couple misconceptions being made here:
1. This is a hypothetical situation. This means that this situation hasn't happened yet, and it may never happen. Due to how corner-case this is, I imagine it'd fall under the latter and not the former. That being said, people are jumping the gun way too quickly to assume bad GMing when all this is, is a thought exercise on the Paladin code, on my behalf no less.
2. Furthermore, Wolfsbane is objectively a Poison, just like how Animate Dead is objectively an [Evil] spell. Simply because they have alternative (and helpful) uses doesn't change the original definition of the subject. Animate Dead being used to build a shelter or orphanage using the corpses of previous settlers, or even the orphans' parents' corpses, is still Evil (and quite ironic, really), even if the end result (a shelter or orphanage for people/children that need it) is good. Same concept with the Wolfsbane/Lycanthrope situation.
I could see a Paladin losing his strength in faith because he was somehow too weak to resist Lycanthropy. I could also see a Paladin maintaining his allignment, self control, and all in spite of being a lycanthrope by the force of his faith. I would allow them will saves to maintain control, because of their faith and divine favor.
Life's been busy, time to make the rounds.
@ Mysterious Stranger: I disagree. In Pathfinder Rules, a Heal check to stabilize somebody, followed by Heal checks to maintain their well being, doesn't involve the possibility of them dying due to your activity (and more due to your inactivity). This is true, even if the effect is a Poison or Disease, or even a Bleed effect. Failing the Heal check doesn't miraculously make them worse, as would probably be the case with real life surgery or medications.
I mean, no spell or healing method has a "Drug Facts" section that tells you how much to take at so-and-so intervals and so on like real life does. You could try to extrapolate that to how Heal checks work for resting, but I'm fairly certain that Paizo employees aren't real life doctors and didn't write the rules assuming players were real life doctors either.
@ Doomed Hero: That's like saying food poisoning happens because you ate too much, which is both untrue in the real world, and also not what a poison in Pathfinder is. And as I stated with Mysterious Stranger, that is a real life argument, not a Pathfinder argument. Last I checked, there's no such thing as "overdosing" in Pathfinder. (Which is ironic, considering they spent publishing resources on a Drugs/Addiction section.)
@ Corvus Mask: While Poison was mentioned with acting honorably, I fail to see how using a Poison on your friend in an attempt to cure him (especially when he may not have given consent to being cured because he's trying to tear your face off instead) falls under that paradigm, especially with the risk of him not making it. At best, you can say it's a botched attempt to save his life and the Paladin was a poor judge of character (because again, the Wolfsbane option isn't a guarantee, and for those who are weak-bodied, unlikely to work). At worst, it's the fantasy equivalent of malpractice (which would probably fall under the acting honorably clause). Either way, the Paladin is facing an uphill battle here.
@ Graelsis: You'd need a Remove Disease spell, which is 3rd level (5th level Clerics). This might normally be an option, but there is a clause that requires a Caster Level of 12 for it to remove Lycanthropy. Last I checked, 12th level Clerics don't grow on trees, nor are they commonly found within typical cities of Golarion, so the odds of simply "curing" it in this fashion are slim. There's an even less likely option of a Scroll of Remove Disease with a 12 Caster Level existing as a purchasable item, meaning that's probably out the window too.
As for getting other people to deliver the Wolfsbane, that would only work if the third party did not act on the Paladin's behalf. So, a Paladin requesting people to help him use Wolfsbane on a friend isn't much different than the Paladin himself doing it. After all, that's how the bigshots end up in prison even though they don't do any of the killing or anything like that.
I could see a Paladin losing his strength in faith because he was somehow too weak to resist Lycanthropy. I could also see a Paladin maintaining his allignment, self control, and all in spite of being a lycanthrope by the force of his faith. I would allow them will saves to maintain control, because of their faith and divine favor.
Um...what?
This thread isn't about Lycanthrope Paladins (which I imagine wouldn't be possible for very long), it's about Paladins using Wolfsbane to cure others of Lycanthropy.
I could see a Paladin losing his strength in faith because he was somehow too weak to resist Lycanthropy. I could also see a Paladin maintaining his allignment, self control, and all in spite of being a lycanthrope by the force of his faith. I would allow them will saves to maintain control, because of their faith and divine favor.Um...what?
This thread isn't about Lycanthrope Paladins (which I imagine wouldn't be possible for very long), it's about Paladins using Wolfsbane to cure others of Lycanthropy.
I see that, but the original question was rather specious, and the Title is a much more interesting question.
So is the paladin code using game terms? If it means like a metagame type of poison, then I guess so, but the character wouldn't reference a chart, they just view poison as a dishonorable substance that attacks the body. (probably a better definition)
Since the paladin doesn't know what the core rulebook designates a poison, they just view it as medicine in this scenario.
So is the paladin code using game terms? If it means like a metagame type of poison, then I guess so, but the character wouldn't reference a chart, they just view poison as a dishonorable substance that attacks the body. (probably a better definition)
Since the paladin doesn't know what the core rulebook designates a poison, they just view it as medicine in this scenario.
Apparently, if a Paladin commits an evil action while they are mind-controlled, they still fall and have to receive atonement to get their powers back.
That suggests that a Paladin's intent doesn't matter at all. If they do something that breaks their code of conduct, like killing an innocent or using any kind of poison, then they fall and that is that.
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So is the paladin code using game terms? If it means like a metagame type of poison, then I guess so, but the character wouldn't reference a chart, they just view poison as a dishonorable substance that attacks the body. (probably a better definition)
Since the paladin doesn't know what the core rulebook designates a poison, they just view it as medicine in this scenario.
Apparently, if a Paladin commits an evil action while they are mind-controlled, they still fall and have to receive atonement to get their powers back.
That suggests that a Paladin's intent doesn't matter at all. If they do something that breaks their code of conduct, like killing an innocent or using any kind of poison, then they fall and that is that.
No, he falls because his weakness of spirit and faith allowed himself to be controlled and used for evil ends. His confidence and faith is thus shaken until the atonement absolves him of his failure. It is a pro-forma thing, like a ritual cleansing, unless he has had a major crisis of faith because of it.
If intent did matter, than a Paladin would never fall if he was magically dominated into doing evil things against his will.
A paladin's code is strict. It doesn't matter if you violate it for what seems to be a good reason. Using any kind of poison for any reason is dishonorable, because the Paladin code says that using poison is dishonorable.
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Semantics pure semantics.
Their is even a song btw that is called the difference between medicine and poison is the dose.
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If intent did matter, than a Paladin would never fall if he was magically dominated into doing evil things against his will.
A paladin's code is strict. It doesn't matter if you violate it for what seems to be a good reason. Using any kind of poison for any reason is dishonorable, because the Paladin code says that using poison is dishonorable.
I don't know if paladins fall for being dominated, but intent is what matters when asking if you are poisoning someone or not :P
As said before, intent matters. Paladins' don't have ban against using poison, they have bans against dishonorable act. So please, tell us how using wolfbane to cure person from lycanthropy is dishonorable act.
Disagree. Paladins can't use poison because their code says so. Guardian Nagas and such aren't Paladins, and so don't have to deal with a code that says they can't use it.
As to the other point; for starters, Wolfsbane isn't a sure thing. It only allows a reroll. If somebody was subject to Lycanthropy before, then it's only logical that Wolfsbane won't always work, and because it deals Constitution damage, the more they're subject to it without curing that disease, the more likely they are to not be cured of it (and instead die from the dosage). Ironically enough, if a Lycanthrope is immune to Poison, then Wolfsbane would never work because that means they're immune to all effects of that Poison, even the positive ones.
Second, administering a cure like that in the real world without consent of the caring or afflicted parties is grounds for malpractice, something which would be akin to acting dishonorably in Pathfinder terms, which means unless he was given consent by the afflicted (or relatives in the case of non-responsiveness), the Paladin has no right to make a decision that may ultimately not work and potentially kill them.
@ Vidmaster7: Songs aren't exactly a great way of basing your personal morals. There are plenty of other songs that tell you to do all kinds of objectively negative things, so you might as well adhere to them too if we're going to go down this route.
More seriously, that sort of equivalency is a misnomer in Pathfinder. Making heal checks don't have a chance of killing you, and a lot of alchemical/drug components don't kill you, even if you're addicted. As I've stated before, there are no "overdose" rules in Pathfinder.
How exactly am I basing my morals on a song? I was just giving an example of how medicine used in excess can be a poison.
You missed the point Entirely or choose to misconstrue it to support your argument either way BOO!
heck to much vitamin D can kill you. Better not give anybody some milk otherwise your poisoning them! OH NOES! What if the paladin was feeding the homeless and accidentally gave someone something their allergic to (he or the person had no idea?) Doesn't kill them but makes them sick well look you done went and poisoned someone. lost that paladin status again.
Also this line is called moving the goal posts:
"Second, administering a cure like that in the real world without consent of the caring or afflicted parties is grounds for malpractice, something which would be akin to acting dishonorably in Pathfinder terms, which means unless he was given consent by the afflicted (or relatives in the case of non-responsiveness), the Paladin has no right to make a decision that may ultimately not work and potentially kill them."
Going through and making up reasons for a paladin to fall is just bad dming.
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Its not poison it's medicine.
A paladins gods are lawful good or lawful neutral at worst. They understand the difference between poison and medicine. Making someone fall for de werewolfing a werewolf with wolfsbane because its poison is asmodean level rules lawyering (and asmodeous doesn't have paladins)
Life's been busy, time to make the rounds.
@ Graelsis: You'd need a Remove Disease spell, which is 3rd level (5th level Clerics). This might normally be an option, but there is a clause that requires a Caster Level of 12 for it to remove Lycanthropy. Last I checked, 12th level Clerics don't grow on trees, nor are they commonly found within typical cities of Golarion, so the odds of simply "curing" it in this fashion are slim. There's an even less likely option of a Scroll of Remove Disease with a 12 Caster Level existing as a purchasable item, meaning that's probably out the window too.
As for getting other people to deliver the Wolfsbane, that would only work if the third party did not act on the Paladin's behalf. So, a Paladin requesting people to help him use Wolfsbane on a friend isn't much different than the Paladin himself doing it. After all, that's how the bigshots end up in prison even though they don't do any of the killing or anything like that.
You are pretty right in the first side of your counclusion here.
But i totally disagree with the second one. If we go that radical with paladin's, then all the group should be lawfull good or instead he will loose his powers. If the rogue is stealing and the paladins knows it, then he should make his own bro go to jail, even if he believes in his redemption.
If the alchemist is making a poison to cure the lycantrophy of the other member, he should stop him and let his parter became an evil creature, because "if you use that poison i will loose my powers"
Man, the code is supposed to make the game interesting for the player, its not made to make your player want to commit suicide because EVERYTHING that OTHERS do is a threat to HIS OWN ideals.
What i mean is: if i believe using poisons is a bad idea, or i just cant do it, i will ask someone to do it, because i cant, but that CANT count as i'm doing it, because i'm just aware of my limits. Honestly, if i'm playing a paladin and i suddenly loose my powers because one of my party members use a poison i will probably turn evil because being good in that setting is just stupid
So, I think some people are getting away from the role-play aspect and reading too much into the game mechanics. I've seen a few of you say what I'm about to say. I just wanted to throw my lot in with you. Paladins are bound by a strict code. That's not in dispute. Poison use is a strict no no. That's the game mechanic. From a role-play standpoint, the use of poison is only an honor thing. It's dishonorable act to poison someone. It's cheating. But, let's say someone will die if hey don't get sleep. For some reason, there's no way for them to sleep and everyone is weakened to the point where they can barely move, so the person can't be knocked out or suffocated into unconsciousness. But... they have a dose of drow poison. The person needs it, they ask for it and the paladin reaches out and gives it to them. That's poison use and, by the rules in the rules in the book, he gets in trouble. From a role-play standpoint, he shouldn't have any problems because there was no violation of is honor. He did nothing wrong by helping his friend sleep.
What I'm saying is, use common sense. Don't read the rules and interpret them like a computer. Interpret them like a paladin who wants to help people or like a GM that's supposed to keep the game fun and exciting. If the paladin uses the wolfsbane to hurt someone or make them weaker so he can beat them in combat, THAT is a clear violation. If he's using it to help, it's not a bad thing. Intent matters in this case.
Now... being mind controlled to do evil and losing powers and having to atone... That's entirely different. Like someone said before. His faith is shaken by the guilt of what he's done and he has to atone. The god is smart enough to know he couldn't help it, but the paladin has the guilt. The god isn't penalizing the paladin just because the rule says the paladin has to atone. Again, just use common sense. Would Erastil see his paladin get mind-controlled to slaughter a village and say, "That guy's a jerk for getting controlled and killing everyone. I'm taking his powers away until he says he's sorry"? I certainly hope no GM would say yes.
So, read the rules, then use them to role-play. Otherwise, you might as well go play an mmo where the computer interprets all the rules.
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This probably is going to depend on the paladin's deity. I could see Abadar agreeing with some of these very picky arguments about wording, and zapping his paladin. A paladin of Sarenrae would definitely not fall for such an act, because good would be more important than rules nitpicks. Even the default paladin code needs to be looked at through the lens of the paladin's deity.
So, what if the lycanthrope in question IS consenting? What if he knows he's cursed and wants to be cured? This is actually a situation in Kingmaker btw, so this is a "canon" question.
A certain ulfen npc comes into town, transforms, remembers it and freaks out and tries to leave. If the party catch him first based on the murders, he asks for help.
Would your paladin still fall if it was 100% consenting, lead to saving lives, and lead to saving a man from a fate he fears more than death?
Here's another way to look at it. How is giving wolfsbane to someone suffering from lycanthropy, in an attempt to cure them to they don;t die or kill countless others, a dishonorable act? In what way is it an evil act? The code of conduct for paladins (it's a little different for each deity, but they're all basically the same...BASICALLY) is set up so they are honorable and good. They don't poison, cheat or deceive to get an upper hand. So, can anyone answer those questions?
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Even when it comes to RAW you have to apply some common sense. The section on acting with honor is actually a perfect example. Looking at the way the sentence is constructed you could easily say that the examples in parenthesis are examples of acting with honor. By that interpretation a paladin who does not lie or does not use poison falls. Now this is completely and utterly ridiculous, but the way the sentence is constructed it could be interpreted that way. Take the following sentence “To qualify for the discount you must meet the requirements (age 18, and a resident of the united states and so forth)”. Both sentences are constructed identically but the meaning is completely different. With the paladins code the actions within the parenthesis are examples of things that that do not meet the requirements, in the other sentence the things in the parenthesis are example of things that do meet the requirements. Common sense allows me to correctly interpret what is being said. Using common sense to see that using wolfsbane to cure a curse is not using poison is the same thing.
Then there is the problem of defining the word use. What constitutes use? Many poisons come from berries on plants but the rest of the plant is not poisonous. Does removing the berries from the plant so the other parts of the plant can be used for something else count as using? How about using taking something poisonous from a child about to eat it, and destroying it? Does merely picking up the poison cause a paladin to fall? Going by Darksoul’s interpretation of the code all of these will cause a paladin to fall. To count as using poison you actually have to be using it to poison someone. Using it to cure someone is not using it to poison someone, so does not count as “using” poison.
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No, the paladin shouldn't fall. The GM perhaps should, but the paladin should be alright.