Dear Paizo, i created this thread to imform of one of the biggest design problems of the Occult class Psychic. I will list them below.
1.Inferior Disciplines.
Most of the disciplines are awfull, inferior or simply lagging behind in power level of their closest counterpart - wizard spell scools and sorcerer bloodlines. Most need improvements to them to be at least bearable.
2.Weak Amplifications.
I'm not a big fan of metamagic but i understand it is essential to full-casters. Amplifications are much weaker than metamagic feats and thus make the wizard even better in power than the psychic.
3.Weird archetypes.
A good example is the Mutation mind archetype. It is on par with the Beastmorph archetype in theme and mechanics, but giving you buffs for polymorph and meele doesnt make you good at meele. If the alchemist can buff and qwaff mutagen to enter meele, wizards, sorcerer, arcanists can polymorph, heck, even their d6 HD doesnt matter. But because the Psychic doesnt get any good polymorph spells(alter self as a 4-th level spells is just weak) and they can't fall back on the Alchemists 2/3 BAB and d8 HD, they cant polymorph well, which makes some archetypes useless.
My propositions of solving these problems:
1.Make discipline spells and powers better.
Taking the Abberation discipline is making you hardy but useless, others have strange and situational powers. I whould suggest giving all diciplines better spells, especially polymorph options, crosses over with 2 and 3.
2.More different amplifications.
Perhaps make them more like arcanists' exploits.
3.Change the spell list.
I whould suggest taking away the situational spells, and maybe crafting a new spell line(Psychic augmentation I-IV for instance, or somethimg like that), or at least giving them Beast shape or Monstorous psyche line of spells.
Patjfinder is well known for being the most flexible and customizable character creation system, and i whould be very happy if the psychic was satysfying to play.
Thank you for your time.
Hmm, i didnt know that, i still dont like amplifications, but it alleviates 2.
1 and 3 still stands: the Mutational Mind is still worthless with no polymorph spells or meele buffs.
Yeh, but i want to at least alleviate the badness of the archetype.
Also, its a shame that 3pp(dream scarred press, specificly) products are better than paizo products.
Well, personally, i whould pick DSP's psionics over Paizo psionics any day of the week.
Execuse me, i meant the representation of psionics in the products, not the general game system.
;(
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Well, personally, i whould pick DSP's psionics over Paizo psionics any day of the week.
Execuse me, i meant the representation of psionics in the products, not the general game system.
;(
Paizo doesn't have Psionics. At all. Multiple Devs have said from day 1 if you want Psionics to use Dreamscarred Press, they literally recommend their products if you want those things in you games. I'm pretty sure it was also one of the first major 3pp for the Pathfinder System as well.
Paizo went with Psychic/Occult magic because of a combination of people in-house being more interested in that and the opportunities it provided than the Psionic system, but also because DP already had made an awesome Pathfinder version of Psionics, they felt no need to try and make a psionics system.
Well that clears out some stuff.
But what can you tell me about the Mutational mind archetype? The flavour is good, but the reality of not having any good meele (read - polymorph) buff spells makes it red by treantmonk standards, and thats coming from 3 different sources online.
What can you tell me about that?
Don't know, but yeah the Psychic is lacking in some polymorph spells that would further enhance combat ability (don't know what other buffs they might have), though it does make for an interesting dip. And being a psychic caster it can also wear Full Plate.
I don't know what Treantmonk is either.
Treantmonk is a person famous for pioneering the red/orange/green/blue color-coded rating system. Heres an example:
Red: Bad, useless options, or options which are extremely situational.Orange: OK options, or useful options that only apply in rare circumstances
Green: Good options.
Blue: Fantastic options, often essential to the function of your character.
As : can percieve, you arent ging to buff the archetype in the next errata, arent you?
Yeah, youre hard to kill in full plate but you can never match a polymorph wizards damage output.
As a dip - maybe but that shouldnt be the aim here, in my perspective, the aim is to have a fully functional sigle-class character, besides, doesn't Paizo abhor multiclassing?
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I personally have never found buff and polymorph spells to be all that necessary.
To each their own.
As a side note i want to make the following quotes:
Mutation Mind attempts to turn the psychic into a melee threat, and doesn't come close to succeeding. If psychics got access to polymorph spells, this would be a great complement to a polymorph build. Unfortunately, they get no such option so even if you invest heavily in complementary options you're still likely to fall behind a single-class Fighter. If you want a similar concept that works, play an Alchemist.
Oof. This archetype is painful. Unless you like the flavor, I’d highly suggest skipping it. The Strength bonuses you get are pretty much wasted on your squishy chassis; you don’t want to be punching things! The fact that your INT takes a hit while you’re under the influence is the real travesty here. There are a few tools that a touch-spell focused psychic might consider… until 7th level and Phrenic Empowerment rears its ugly head. Using your phrenic amps then becomes a liability as you risk further damaging your INT score should you be hurt in a fight. Stay far away from this one.
Mutation Mind: This is a prime example of a bad archetype, IMO. The aim here is to turn your Psychic caster into a gish type of character, while you do keep your d6 HD, poor BAB and lack of weapon and armor proficiencies. The entire archetype revolves around the idea of trading your phrenic amplifications for bodily mutations, which let you increase your Strength score and grant you additional capacities such as tremorsense, darkvision or combat maneuver bonuses. It does not really help you become a competent melee combatant and if you want a magic-user that can hold their own in combat, I would recommend you look for other classes in Occult Adventures (the Occultist might suit you, for instance) or other sourcebooks (the Magus is standing right there, waiting for you). Definitely not a good option, in my humble opinion.
I personally have never found buff and polymorph spells to be all that necessary.
To each their own.
About what class are you talking about?
BTW i am not saying they're must-haves.
And yes, to each their own.
Any class.
I am not saying that a fighter without a Bulls strength is useless or that a cleric without divine might can never hit, BUT.
I AM saying that in order to be more effective, the magus can cast Monstorous psyche on himself, the wizard can kill stuff in meele wth the Beast shape line of spells, and the bloodrager needs his buffs to do the most damage.
So you see, the archetype nudges you character into the gish route without having the buffs to pull it off. I can see the solving of this problem in 2 ways:
1. Give them polymorph/general meele buff spells either througth the archetype or add them to their spell list.
2. Give them 2/3 BaB and d8 HD.
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Level 20 PFS psychic here. Happy to address your concerns.
Dear Paizo, i created this thread to imform of one of the biggest design problems of the Occult class Psychic. I will list them below.
1.Inferior Disciplines.
Most of the disciplines are awfull, inferior or simply lagging behind in power level of their closest counterpart - wizard spell scools and sorcerer bloodlines. Most need improvements to them to be at least bearable.
lolwut? Tell me of a wizard spell school or sorcerer bloodline that says "I double move and the combat is over" like Psychedelia's Hallucinogenic Aura. How about a school or bloodline that simultaneously provides immunity to 4 conditions permanently and, as such, practically provides a free metamagic feat (logical spell) to all of your spells like Tranquility's Purge Disquiet.
Want to look at something lower than 13th level? Psychedelia has an on-demand alchemical buff to intelligence, increasing all save DCs by 2 at 1st level, along with all the other benefits of an intelligence increase. Aberration gives you DC increase + Will saves + immunity to fear at 1st level.
Looking at spells? Self-Perfection has one of the most boss lists of bonus spells out there.
2.Weak Amplifications.
I'm not a big fan of metamagic but i understand it is essential to full-casters. Amplifications are much weaker than metamagic feats and thus make the wizard even better in power than the psychic.
Will of the Dead. Relentless Casting. Overpowering Mind. Undercast Surge. These are all very powerful effects for point pools and, as mentioned before, they stack with metamagics. At higher levels, Dual Amplification, Dispelling Pulse, Mimic Metamagic, and Space-Rending Spell are all good.
There is literally nothing more satisfying in this game than hitting an undead enemy with Will of the Dead + Feeblemind and watching them die because of it.
3.Weird archetypes.
A good example is the Mutation mind archetype. It is on par with the Beastmorph archetype in theme and mechanics, but giving you buffs for polymorph and meele doesnt make you good at meele. If the alchemist can buff and qwaff mutagen to enter meele, wizards, sorcerer, arcanists can polymorph, heck, even their d6 HD doesnt matter. But because the Psychic doesnt get any good polymorph spells(alter self as a 4-th level spells is just weak) and they can't fall back on the Alchemists 2/3 BAB and d8 HD, they cant polymorph well, which makes some archetypes useless.
I agree with you about Mutation Mind. Amnesiac is one of the better archetypes out there for spont casters, though.
There are bad or inferior archetypes for every class. I wish Elemental Ally for Druid wasn't hot garbage, for example. The fact is that some options and ideas function at different power levels. You want a melee psychic-casting spontaneous caster that's deep in flavor? Play the mutation mind. You want one that buffs themselves to the 9's and runs around with your proper beaters? Play a Psychic bloodline sorcerer.
Finally, titling a thread "Hey Paizo Devs, cater to me" isn't going to get any response, and I'm pretty sure that's basically unofficial policy at this point.
Psychic is probably my favourite class. I want to play a mutation mind, more for thematic reasons than mechanical but a little for that. So um oh well? Tee hee hee... ***weak smile***
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Keep in mind that the information in these guides are opinions. They are as right or wrong as you believe them to be. I've found that I often disagree based on experience, difference in how or why to build characters, and so on. The guides are nice but actually using the class/power/spell/etc and seeing for yourself is better.
Consider it like listening to movie or music critics. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong, but you may like something they don't or even like it in spite or perceived flaws.
Psychedelia
This isn't actually usable for a Pc's past 12th if they have to go into a populated area. It's awesome that it affects enemies within 30' but much less awesome when random city dwellers go crazy...
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Yay, disagreement time!
1 and 2 are cheating by splitting up features. Disciplines are weaker than bloodlines or some schools, yes, but that's because you also get phrenic amplifications, which help you get past SR and immunities. Eventually, you can use them for free metamagic.
Psychic doesn't need polymorph spells. They get early access to Suggestion and other enchantments, plus getting both types of calling spells, the summoning line, and good divination coverage. If you want to wade into melee, possessing a creature is much better than the polymorph spells anyway. Focusing on one archetype is like wanting wizards to have better BAB because they have a sword-using archetype.
But, if you want a polymorph spell, just grab it! The rebirth discipline is better than any wizard school (before level 20 capstones) and almost all bloodlines. Not only does it get you Polymorph without using spells and with 10x duration, it also lets you choose one spell from another class list every day.
Like holy sword. I love getting that spell without being a paladin.
PsychedeliaThis isn't actually usable for a Pc's past 12th if they have to go into a populated area. It's awesome that it affects enemies within 30' but much less awesome when random city dwellers go crazy...
I don't know. Sounds like a fantastic evil PC ability. Or, if you're just CN, form a cult and get yourself carried around on a palanquin.
I don't know. Sounds like a fantastic evil PC ability. Or, if you're just CN, form a cult and get yourself carried around on a palanquin.PsychedeliaThis isn't actually usable for a Pc's past 12th if they have to go into a populated area. It's awesome that it affects enemies within 30' but much less awesome when random city dwellers go crazy...
LOL It's super awesome until you try to buy a drink, food, ect... Unless you are 100% self reliant and never go to a populated area to get something. It also means 50%, normally friendly/obedient creatures attack something. It cuts down on that "fantastic" fun when your slaves/servants/followers/ ect keep randomly attacking themselves or others: You end up with a LOT of turnover that way and you'll eventually run out.
I don't know. Sounds like a fantastic evil PC ability. Or, if you're just CN, form a cult and get yourself carried around on a palanquin.PsychedeliaThis isn't actually usable for a Pc's past 12th if they have to go into a populated area. It's awesome that it affects enemies within 30' but much less awesome when random city dwellers go crazy...
CG and I just stayed out of range of people. Generally, if we had to go to populated areas, I'd pop up Telepathic Bond and stay out. Generally speaking, once you're 13+ in PFS, you work with the same PCs each session, so we had that down to a science. Funny enough, I had TB up full time on all of us such that when we did Race for the Runecarved Key for level 20 and had an extra PC with us, we made jokes about how we hadn't heard each others' voices in months save to introduce ourselves to the new person.
This, of course, did not make my arrival on Akiton very pleasant during a certain scenario where you come out into a populated area from a portal.
By the time the ability comes on, it's pretty easy to work around. At the very least, you should be using Overland Flight every morning with an extend rod to avoid the plebs. Otherwise, yes, the lack of language to suppress the aura is...yeah...then it's Joyful Rapture time.
LOL It's super awesome until you try to buy a drink, food, ect... Unless you are 100% self reliant and never go to a populated area to get something. It also means 50%, normally friendly/obedient creatures attack something. It cuts down on that "fantastic" fun when your slaves/servants/followers/ ect keep randomly attacking themselves or others: You end up with a LOT of turnover that way and you'll eventually run out.I don't know. Sounds like a fantastic evil PC ability. Or, if you're just CN, form a cult and get yourself carried around on a palanquin.PsychedeliaThis isn't actually usable for a Pc's past 12th if they have to go into a populated area. It's awesome that it affects enemies within 30' but much less awesome when random city dwellers go crazy...
Definitely better for the sort of character to use a Ring of Sustenance and spend time behind a curtained-off room section. X) And you can just give your chief servant the monthly antidote.
Definitely better for the sort of character to use a Ring of Sustenance and spend time behind a curtained-off room section. X) And you can just give your chief servant the monthly antidote.
Well, I think my point would be that needing to do so makes it much less awesome. It's NOT the Psychic Disciplines I'd showcase to make a point that the average player can get great options. ;)
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Mickey had a Ring of Sustenance for weight loss purposes due to excessive munchies. >.>
I still stand by Psychedelia as a great choice overall. Reactive anti-harpy technology at 5, on-demand DC buffing at 1, anti-ambush technology at 13...it's a lot of fun.
Definitely better for the sort of character to use a Ring of Sustenance and spend time behind a curtained-off room section. X) And you can just give your chief servant the monthly antidote.Well, I think my point would be that needing to do so makes it much less awesome. It's NOT the Psychic Disciplines I'd showcase to make a point that the average player can get great options. ;)
True! But I'm glad to have it for very cool niche builds.
So? The mutational mind still isnt a playable gish.
Title change was very on spot througth.
Sorry if i upset anyone, it's just that i like gishes and the Mutational Mind screamed "I'M A GISH!" to me.
I get upset(read - a raging barbarian) when you get cool flavour with hot garbage mechanics and you apparently only get a one-of-a-kind archetype for every class, like there arent two dex-baced arechtypes with different flavour or two archetypes with different mechanics but the same flavour.
The mutational mind still isnt a playable [single class] gish.
It makes a great dip or part of gestalt character. It can also make a pretty good 'bad touch' caster when paired with Pain because of the strength boost help to hit and you can pick up reach for them: the downfall if the small number of touch spells on the list.