Throwing / Sharding Startoss


Rules Questions


1: Does a scimitar with the throwing or sharding property retain its 18-20 threat range?

2: Can it be used with Startoss Style if I have the Weapon Training (Thrown) class feature? (Is it a "thrown weapon" that is wielded in one hand?)

I basically don't know if the "any thrown weapon" bit means any weapon that is thrown (has a range increment), or of it's specifically referring to a category of weapons... (Is "thrown weapon" even a category of weapons? Outside of the obvious thrown fighter weapon group.)


1: Yes. There is no reason it wouldn't.

2: With Sharding, definitely not, that's a unique ranged attack. With Throwing...

Weapons wrote:
Thrown Weapons: The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Emphasis mine. RAW, no, as it's not originally on the table. RAI, I'd allow it as a GM, because it gains a range increment.

Does anyone have any other info on this, maybe an FAQ?

For convenience: Throwing | Sharding


Quote:
Thrown Weapons: It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

This seems to indicate that the classification for what a "Thrown Weapon" is extends even to weapons that aren't designed to be thrown, providing you are throwing them (and taking the penalty, if it doesnt have any range increment). So even if the weapon didnt have a range increment (and took the penalties), provided it was thrown it would be a "thrown weapon", which fits the requirement of "can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons that she wields in one hand", right?


1) When throwing a scimitar (not normally a thrown weapon) it becomes an improvised thrown weapon. Improvised weapons don't retain their stats.

Don't have time to continue this post ATM, I'll try to explain more later.


Claxon wrote:
1) When throwing a scimitar (not normally a thrown weapon) it becomes an improvised thrown weapon. Improvised weapons don't retain their stats.

Wait, then what is the point of the throwing enchantment?...


That is the point of the throwing enhancement, but as I said that is not normal.

You said "does a weapon with the throwing or sharding property retain it's crit range" and the answer is no, because the sharding property doesn't make it a thrown weapon and would still be treated as an improvised weapon. You would need both thrown and sharding enhancements.

I ran out of time this morning before leaving for work and couldn't fully explain.

As for your 2nd question, the answer is no. Even when giving it the special enchantment, it doesn't change the weapon group it belongs to. So it doesn't qualify for Startoss Style.


Claxon wrote:

That is the point of the throwing enhancement, but as I said that is not normal.

You said "does a weapon with the throwing or sharding property retain it's crit range" and the answer is no, because the sharding property doesn't make it a thrown weapon and would still be treated as an improvised weapon. You would need both thrown and sharding enhancements.

I ran out of time this morning before leaving for work and couldn't fully explain.

As for your 2nd question, the answer is no. Even when giving it the special enchantment, it doesn't change the weapon group it belongs to. So it doesn't qualify for Startoss Style.

1: Ah I see, throwing is the way to go then. Your blunt first post made it sound like neither of them worked.

2: One thing you might have overlooked: "a character with this feat and the weapon training (thrown) class feature can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons" - Which doesn't have the limitation of thrown fighter weapon group, it merely has to be a thrown weapon. (Similar to how Ascetic style with the "weapon training Monk" class feature can use ascetic style with a waveblade, despite it not being in the monk weapon group.*) So it should work, right, given that the classification for "thrown weapon" is simply any weapon that is thrown, at least according to the only known definition I could find (in the weapon section). By my understanding you would still need Weapon focus in a thrown weapon group weapon to qualify, but once you did it would function with "any thrown weapon".

*I checked this after I posted, it would also allow a wooden stake, a switchblade, a syringe spear, a flying talon, a maulaxe and other thrown weapons (that naturally have range increments) that aren't part of the thrown weapon group to be used with startoss.

So shouldn't it be:
1: Yes for throwing, no for sharding
2: Yes

?


Sorry, I was just rushed for time earlier.

Startoss Style would only work with it if you have the Weapon Training (fighter) class feature. For some reason when I was typing my response I didn't remember that in your post.


Claxon wrote:
You said "does a weapon with the throwing or sharding property retain it's crit range" and the answer is no, because the sharding property doesn't make it a thrown weapon and would still be treated as an improvised weapon. You would need both thrown and sharding enhancements.

I don't see why it'd improvised. It does the same thing as throwing "The duplicate gains a range increment of 10 feet" plus it says it "uses the same proficiency and otherwise functions the same as the original weapon."

To me "uses the same proficiency" means no improvised and "functions the same as the original weapon" uses the same stats, while "gains a range increment of 10 feet" makes it act as a normal thrown weapon.

As to Startoss Style, it says "flies as if thrown by the wielder at the intended target". To me, that means it works as a thrown weapon. For instance, I'd add strength damage.


Claxon wrote:

Sorry, I was just rushed for time earlier.

Startoss Style would only work with it if you have the Weapon Training (fighter) class feature. For some reason when I was typing my response I didn't remember that in your post.

That may be the RAI but they said that someone with the "feat and the weapon training (thrown) class feature can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons that she wields in one hand." It should say any weapons from the thrown weapon group if it was meant to ONLY work with the weapon group.


graystone wrote:
Claxon wrote:
You said "does a weapon with the throwing or sharding property retain it's crit range" and the answer is no, because the sharding property doesn't make it a thrown weapon and would still be treated as an improvised weapon. You would need both thrown and sharding enhancements.

I don't see why it'd improvised. It does the same thing as throwing "The duplicate gains a range increment of 10 feet" plus it says it "uses the same proficiency and otherwise functions the same as the original weapon."

To me "uses the same proficiency" means no improvised and "functions the same as the original weapon" uses the same stats, while "gains a range increment of 10 feet" makes it act as a normal thrown weapon.

As to Startoss Style, it says "flies as if thrown by the wielder at the intended target". To me, that means it works as a thrown weapon. For instance, I'd add strength damage.

That seems weird to me, but is possible. I was thinking that Sharding was a +1 like Thrown, but it appears it's a +2. It seems like Sharding would mostly subsume Thrown, but it's also more expensive so maybe thats okay. It was a pretty terrible enchant to begin with.

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