So, looking through the classes for which character decks where available I couldn't help but see a lack of my favourite conceptual character, one who blends arcane and divine magic seamlessly together: the Theurge. Mystic Theurge technically was a prestige class (and one that seems relatively underwhelming in the tabletop game) though my favourite iteration is actually the third-party class.
But in any case, using the Theurge's concept as a base I wanted to design a class that encapsulated the blending of the two magics in a way I thought appropriate to the card game.
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Strenn
Male Human Theurge
Born the son of a wizard, Strenn was obsessed with magic as he grew up but felt as though following in his father’s studies would’ve limited him. He studied arcane theories and the miracles that priests and clerics could work. Eventually, he found a way to cast their magic without channelling any outside, let alone divine, force. A leap ahead for him, and so he took to adventuring to put his theories into practice.
Strength.......d4.....[_] +1
Dexterity......d6.....[_] +1 [_] +2
Constitution...d6.....[_] +1
Intelligence...d10....[_] +1 [_] +2 [_] +3 [_] +4
--Arcane +2
--Craft +1
--Knowledge +1
Wisdom.........d10....[_] +1 [_] +2 [_] +3 [_] +4
--Divine +2
Charisma.......d6.....[_] +1 [_] +2
HAND SIZE:......7.....[_] 8 [_] 9
For you combat check, you may recharge a spell to roll your Arcane skill. ([_] You may also add up to two traits from the recharged spell to the check.)
When you successfully acquire a spell, you may choose to explore again or increase your hand size by 1 until the start of your next turn.
When you play an Arcane or Divine spell, you may recharge a spell of the other type to add 1d6 ([_] +1) to your recharge check.
CARD LIST
Weapon –
Spell 8 [_] 9 [_] 10 [_] 11 [_] 12
Armour –
Item 2 [_] 3 [_] 4
Ally 2 [_] 3 [_] 4
Blessing 3 [_] 4 [_] 5
FAVOURED CARD TYPE: SPELL
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I've not considered anything in the way of roles just yet, but suggestions are appreciated. As are any regarding touch-ups to what I already have.
Just a quick comment, since I'm on mobile:
One of the roles of Zarlova (Cleric CD) is Theurge.
The first power, roll your Arcane for combat, seems like it's going to become severely underpowered in a hurry -- even a basic Arcane Attack spell would be Arcane plus a die or two. Since this character doesn't get any weapons, all his combat will be through spells... why is auto-recharging a spell -- likely an Attack spell -- better than just playing the spell? (Is this a way of getting out of fighting a monster who's immune to the Attack trait?)
Not a role-player so I'm not familiar: what is a theurge? How does s/he blend the two kinds of magic?
Arcane, Divine, Craft and Knowledge are 4 VERY useful skills (vs things like Stealth or Acrobatics). Giving the 4 of them on a d10+ seems a lot to me.
Worse making 3 of them under Intelligence means any skill feat point in INT will reinforce 3 major skills at once.
I would recommend to at least do one of the following:
If you want to keep the 4 skills
- Move Craft to DEX+1
- Change Arcane to INT+1
- Change Divine to WIS +1
Or
Remove Craft or Knowledge altogether
IMHO
Frencois wrote: Arcane, Divine, Craft and Knowledge are 4 VERY useful skills (vs things like Stealth or Acrobatics). Giving the 4 of them on a d10+ seems a lot to me.
Worse making 3 of them under Intelligence means any skill feat point in INT will reinforce 3 major skills at once.
The Class Deck version of Lem gets d12+2 in Arcane, Divine and Diplomacy, and I'd argue that Diplomacy is more useful than Craft or Knowledge on average. Siwar gets d12+1 Arcane and Divine, d12+3 Diplomacy, also under Charisma, and d8+2 Knowledge. There's definitely precedent for what SentientShadow has done with Strenn's skills.
@topic:
I think OP should compare his character to Zarlova's role for inspiration, since she is lone sharks official theurge; otherwise, I agree with Axoq's comments.
Axoq wrote: Not a role-player so I'm not familiar: what is a theurge? How does s/he blend the two kinds of magic? Prestige Class Mystic Theurge
Meaning of the Word
Theurge is a prestige class that lets you advance in both arcane and divine magic at the same time - afaik, there is no explanation further than that, since anyone with training in arcane and divine can become a theurge in the RPG, no matter what the actual sources for their spells are. In order to qualify for it, you'd traditionally take 3 lvls of both wizard and cleric.
This puts you at a fixed delay to learn new spells, but you get access to both spell lists and many more spells per level, so you are basically able to cast everything, albeit later than usually. At least in theory - to cast all those spells in practice, you need the proper attribute scores, which forces some compromises given that you need to raise two of them (Int & Wis) at the same time. However, using the sorcerer and the oracle would give you access to a unified casting attribute (Cha), so you might already see why the class can differ greatly in performance.
It would have been the perfect class for late game munchkin builds in any D&D based computer game, but was never officially implemented in any of them.
Hmm. Then I guess the big question for the OP is, what catches your imagination about theurges? It sounds like they just have the ability to do arcane and divine, but pretty much every bard already does this plus more. I do like the idea of the second power, giving the character basically an extra turn to make use of some card to avoid losing the extra draw, or one more chance to draw the card he needs from his deck. The other two, I think, need to work harder at making the character special.
Maybe some special ability for those spells that have both Arcane or Divine traits (or, possibly, specific to those that only have one)?
I think that the character concept is underdeveloped. The basics of being a (starting) Theurge are covered well enough by having both the Arcane and Divine skills and a high number of spell cards in one's deck (this character starts at 8, which is really high). The only portion of the PFRPG Theurge that is missing is the Spell Synthesis class feature. This class feature allows the Mystic Theurge to combine an Arcane spell and a Divine spell into a single attack. The Mystic Theurge is distinct from the Bard in that the Theurge is a dedicated spellcaster and much more potent in use of magic whereas the Bard is a dabbler and relies on other powers.
The “Theurge” trait is a bit problematic. The use of prestige class names as class traits for the villains makes sense as those characters are intended to use the Hell’s Vengeance character decks instead of the appropriate class decks (e.g., Nyctessa won’t use the Wizard/Sorcerer class decks). The Mystic Theurge prestige class isn’t so cut and dried, allowing for progression from a number of multi-class options. The obvious assumption is wizard/cleric, but you could also have a magus/paladin, a summoner/hunter, or any other obscure Arcane/Divine multiclass combination. I imagine that the Ultimate Magic Add-On Deck will be appropriate, but that’s guesswork on my part until that deck is released (2018). In practice, the designer’s typically list only one of a multiclass character’s classes as the class trait. This only matters because it might be helpful (for me, at least) to know what your Theurge’s multiclass combination is, driving towards the core character’s skills, cards, and powers. For now, I’m assuming that it’s Wizard/Cleric based on the flavor text you provided.
You have sixteen skill feats rather than the usual fifteen. I recommend getting rid of Charisma +2 (under the assumption that you want to allow for maxing out Intelligence/Wisdom).
Having a high hand size and a very high number of his favored card type, the character has the potential to be very flexible. He could serve as a combatant with a high number of Attack spells; he could also serve as a support character; the ability to take Divine spells also allows for a role as a healer. All of that at the same time. He’ll serve better if he specializes a bit, but the flexibility of the character increases the flexibility of the party, allowing him to fill or augment one or two roles.
I’d get rid of the Hand Size 9 power feat, leaving that for one or both of the roles. This will allow you to have three power feats in the other powers, allowing for more flexibility/progression.
As far as powers go, I have two alternate suggestions (if you follow my suggestions, choose one or the other, not both). The first is to have one arcane spellcaster power and one divine spellcaster power. The alternative is to have powers representative of the Mystic Theurge and the pursuit of both Arcane and Divine magic spellcasting (with Zarlova providing a solid example). For now, my suggestions are going to be based on the latter idea (focusing on the Theurge-ishness of the character).
The first power (“For your combat check, you may recharge a spell to roll your Arcane skill. (□ You may also add up to two traits from the recharged spell to the check.”) seems pointless. The character shouldn’t be using weapons (and has zero in his deck) or attacking with bare knuckles – he’s focused on using magic so his combat prowess should be defined by spells. The character starts with eight spells, leaving plenty of room for spells with the Attack trait, which are better than the power (except that they aren’t automatically recharged). I’d ditch the power and replace it. Looking at the PFRPG prestige class, the Combined Spells class feature doesn’t need to be represented as you can already do this via the normal card slots. The Spell Synthesis class feature might work, something like:
“Choose a spell that has the Arcane and Attack traits and a spell that has the Divine and Attack traits. When you play one for your combat check, you may recharge the other (□ or shuffle it into your deck) to add 1d6 (□ +1)(□ +2) and that card’s traits to the check.”
Note that I’ve followed the pattern of S&S Seltyiel for this, but similar results might be achieved in a much more elegant manner, such as the Magus Arcana cohort of the Magus Class Deck. Personally, I’m not a huge fan of the idea above, but it is a decent representation of the PFRPG Mystic Theurge. (I prefer Theurge Zarlova’s powers, to be honest.)
The second power seems a bit off, providing two options at base level. I’d adjust it to:
“When you acquire a spell on your turn, you may explore your location again (□ or you may increase your hand size by 1 until the start of your next turn).”
As I said at the beginning, though, the “Mystic Theurge” concept is just one element of the overall character. It’s difficult to make more detailed suggestions without knowing more about the character (e.g., root classes, character background, etc.). It’s an intriguing concept, but not quite enough to go on. As Axoq indicated, we need to know more about the concept.
First, I’d like to say: holy s&#+, thanks for the responses. I’m new to forums overall, let alone getting such useful responses.
So, as far as addressing changes. I understand that the primary concern is the underwhelming initial power. I’m honestly not sure what I was trying to do with it now that I look back on it (haven’t actually been here since I posted it first).
So I’ll probably shifting that to be more akin to the Magus example (and Brother Tyler’s recommendation).
The next concern was to do with the Mystic Theurge’s original classes regarding the prestige class. Would just like to mention that this character is not based on the Prestige Class; but rather the 3rd party class produced by Kobold Press, the Theurge as it has been, by far, my favourite iteration and much closer to what it should have been (in my opinion).
And the idea behind creating a theurge (beyond just being one of my favourite spellcasting classes in Pathfinder) is that there were characters who focused on spells (wizards and sorcerer) or characters who could play both types spells (bard and as I have been informed, a specific character role for one cleric) but none who really excelled at both, which is a niche I’d personally enjoy playing, even if to the detriment of other capacities.
The purpose of getting feedback is that despite enjoying the character of feeling powerful, if I wanted to ever actually play this guy he’d have to be balanced to the system like every other character and playing a character without fault can be a bit, well… cheated.
So I’ll revise changes and re-post the class shortly to get even more feedback from you guys and once we sort out the base class, I can look to roles. I’m thinking that one will focus on non-combat applications of spells while the other will a battering ram of magical force.
Alright, here we are:
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Strenn
Male Human Theurge
Born the son of a wizard, Strenn was obsessed with magic as he grew up but felt as though following in his father’s studies would’ve limited him. He studied arcane theories and the miracles that priests and clerics could work. Eventually, he found a way to cast their magic without channelling any outside, let alone divine, force. A leap ahead for him, and so he took to adventuring to put his theories into practice.
Strength.......d4.....□ +1
Dexterity…....d6......□ +1 □ +2
Constitution..d6......□ +1
Intelligence...d10....□ +1 □ +2 □ +3 □ +4
--Arcane +2
--Craft +1
--Knowledge +1
Wisdom.........d10....□ +1 □ +2 □ +3 □ +4
--Divine +2
Charisma.......d6.....□ +1
HAND SIZE:......7.....□ 8 □ 9
Choose a spell with the Arcane and Attack traits and a spell with the Divine and Attack traits. When you play one for your combat check, you may recharge the other to add 1d6 (□ +1)(□ +2) and that card’s traits, to the check.
When you acquire a spell on your turn, you may immediately explore (□ or increase your hand size by 1 until the start of your next turn)
When you recharge a spell, you may recharge a card to add 1d6 to your recharge check.
CARD LIST
Weapon –
Spell 8 □ 9 □ 10 □ 11 □ 12
Armour –
Item 2 □ 3 □ 4
Ally 2 □ 3 □ 4
Blessing 3 □ 4 □ 5
FAVOURED CARD TYPE: SPELL
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So now what do you think about this revision?
Brother Tyler seems to have counted wrong. (Or else I have.) I now see only 13 skill feats instead of 15... the two on Hand Size are power feats, and now you have five of those instead of four. If it were me, I'd lose the second upgrade to a hand size of 9 -- half his deck is spells, he'll have one in his hand always! -- put back the Charisma... not sure where I'd add the last one. I'm going to assume that last extra box is just never getting checked with six skill feats happening and eight boxes in INT and WIS to tick off....
The new first spell is what I was expecting to see in a character that blends Arcane and Divine. Having those spells interact somehow. This seems like a good base card for a character.
Oh, right. Thanks Axoq. I suppose I should review changes after I make them rather than assuming others are right.
Skill Dice = 42
Card List; Initial/Upgrades = 15/10
Standard Power Feats = 4
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Strenn
Male Human Theurge
Born the son of a wizard, Strenn was obsessed with magic as he grew up but felt as though following in his father’s studies would’ve limited him. He studied arcane theories and the miracles that priests and clerics could work. Eventually, he found a way to cast their magic without channelling any outside, let alone divine, force. A leap ahead for him, and so he took to adventuring to put his theories into practice.
Strength.......d4.....[_] +1
Dexterity…....d6......[_] +1 [_] +2
Constitution..d6......[_] +1 [_] +2
Intelligence...d10....[_] +1 [_] +2 [_] +3 [_] +4
--Arcane +2
--Craft +1
--Knowledge +1
Wisdom.........d10....[_] +1 [_] +2 [_] +3 [_] +4
--Divine +2
Charisma.......d6.....[_] +1 [_] +2
HAND SIZE:......7.....[_] 8
Choose a spell with the Arcane and Attack traits and a spell with the Divine and Attack traits. When you play one for your combat check, you may recharge the other to add 1d6 ([_] +1)([_] +2) and that card’s traits, to the check.
When you acquire a spell on your turn, you may immediately explore ([_] or increase your hand size by 1 until the start of your next turn)
When you recharge a spell, you may recharge a card to add 1d6 to your recharge check.
CARD LIST
Weapon –
Spell 8 [_] 9 [_] 10 [_] 11 [_] 12
Armour –
Item 2 [_] 3 [_] 4
Ally 2 [_] 3 [_] 4
Blessing 3 [_] 4 [_] 5
FAVOURED CARD TYPE: SPELL
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Think I got it right this time. Put the last skill feat in Con since Humans tend to be persistent despite all odds and it was more suitable than Strength considering I want that to be a weakness.
It looks like I did count wrong, including the hand size power feat increases in with the skill feat increases. That's embarrassing. I guess I failed my Perception 5 check.
Okay, another update (I'm not just sitting here idle waiting for responses of course.)
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STRENN
Male Human Theurge
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Born the son of a wizard, Strenn was obsessed with magic as he grew up but felt as though following in his father’s studies would’ve limited him. He studied arcane theories and the miracles that priests and clerics could work. Eventually, he found a way to cast their magic without channelling any outside, let alone divine, force. A leap ahead for him, and so he took to adventuring to put his theories into practice.
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STR…..d4 ([_]1)
DEX….d6 ([_]1) ([_]2)
CON.…d6 ([_]1) ([_]2)
INT…..d10 ([_]1) ([_]2) ([_]3) ([_]4)
…Arcane +2
…Craft +1
…Knowledge +1
WIS….d10 ([_]1) ([_]2) ([_]3) ([_]4)
…Divine +2
CHA...d6 ([_]1) ([_]2)
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Hand Size…7 ([_]8)
Choose a spell with the Arcane and Attack traits and a spell with the Divine and Attack traits. When you play one for your combat check, you may recharge the other to add 1d6 ([_]1) ([_]2) and that card’s traits to the check.
When you acquire a spell on your turn, you may immediately explore ([_] or increase your hand size by 1 until the start of your next turn).
When you recharge a spell, you may recharge a card to add 1d6 to the recharge check.
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Card List
Weapon…….-
Spell………..8 ([_]9) ([_]10) ([_]11) ([_]12)
Armour…….-
Item………...2 ([_]3) ([_]4)
Ally…………2 ([_]3) ([_]4)
Blessing…….3 ([_]4) ([_]5)
Favoured Card Type: SPELL
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Strenn (Battlemage)
Hand Size…7 ([_]8) ([_]9) ([_]10)
Choose a spell with the Arcane and Attack traits and a spell with the Divine and Attack traits. When you play one for your combat check, you may recharge the other to add 1d6 ([_]1) ([_]2) ([_]3) ([_]4) and that card’s traits to the check.
When you acquire a spell on your turn, you may immediately explore ([_] or increase your hand size by 1 until the start of your next turn).
When you recharge a spell, you may recharge a card to add 1d6 to the recharge check.
([_] At the end of your turn, when you reset your hand, you may recharge spells instead of discarding them.)
([_] After you successfully defeat a monster, if your check had the Arcane and Divine traits, you may recharge any number of cards to draw an equal number from your deck ([_] or you may recharge one card of your choice from your discard pile instead).)
([_] After you play a spell, you may recharge a card to draw a card.)
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Strenn (Thaumaturge)
Hand Size…7 ([_]8) ([_]9) ([_]10) ([_]11) ([_]12)
Choose a spell with the Arcane and Attack traits and a spell with the Divine and Attack traits. When you play one for your combat check, you may recharge the other to add 1d6 ([_]1) ([_]2) and that card’s traits to the check.
When you acquire a spell on your turn, you may immediately explore ([_] or increase your hand size by 1 until the start of your next turn)([_] or recharge a card from your discard pile)
When you attempt to recharge a spell, you may recharge a card to add 1d6 to the recharge check.
([_] If you would take damage outside of your turn, you may recharge a card to reduce the damage taken by 2 ([_] 4).)
([_] If you successfully recharge a spell after playing it, you may instead shuffle it into your deck instead.)
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