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How to deal with Paladins


Advice

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If you tell us where you are in the AP we can try come up with some fun ideas to help


Yes, paladins excel at taking down evil bosses. It's more or less exactly what they do; it shouldn't be surprising that they're good at it. Yours is not at all out of line (and I've seen lots more damage by optimized players).

Evil bosses should be wary of paladins, and take measures to reduce their effectiveness. One measure is to divert or distract them by arranging other things to happen (and some bosses might in fact try to have one of their henchminions tempt the paladin to fall; in RotR one of the lamias might be a good choice for this one.)

For more immediate protection when the hero gets through to the villain's lair, three things come to mind.

1) cover or tactical arrangements to prevent the paladin from getting close: wall spells, deep chasms, some kind of barrier are all possibilities.

2) Tactical misdirection, such as a minion disguised as the boss (illusion spells are good for this). Some bosses will be willing to disguise themselves as minions or slaves, others will not (most of the RotR bosses included). Getting a paladin to waste a smite on a minion is a perfectly good course of action.

3) Bodyguards, particularly of neutral alignments and therefore unsmitable, who can interfere with the paladin. Mercenaries might work (cf. Orik Vancaskerin), so would conjured elementals or non-evil outsiders. Elementals are particularly nice since they're good at grappling.

Minions are always a good idea for boss fights - as a GM, you want the party to have to make choices about what to do and whom to target, not always be throwing stuff directly at the boss.


Ryll Korr wrote:

As a Paladin of Serenae, I would under no circumstances accept the surrender of something beyond punishment or redemption, such as a lich, demon, dragon, monstrosity of Lamashtu, nor certainly any worshipper or spawn of the rough beast.

** spoiler omitted **

---
There are very specific acts that are clear cut...

So what ur saying is that some creatures are far from redemption even if you are as good as u can?


J4RH34D wrote:
If you tell us where you are in the AP we can try come up with some fun ideas to help

Hi favouriete tall folk!

We are actually in the foxglove mannor, they have just entered and are nowadays searching what can they find in the first floor. ^^


tonyz wrote:


Evil bosses should be wary of paladins, and take measures to reduce their effectiveness. One measure is to divert or distract them by arranging other things to happen (and some bosses might in fact try to have one of their henchminions tempt the paladin to fall; in RotR one of the lamias might be a good choice for this one.)

.

I loved your post, i will apply a lot of your tips and suggestions to my combats from now on man!


Graelsis wrote:

Hi tall folks! (EDITED DUE TO J4RH34D EXCELENT ADVICE)

Well, i think this is the most suitable forum to fit my questions in, so here i go.

The thing is, i've never been master for players above level 5, and now i'm facing some issues in the Rise of The Runelords campaing due to one thing.

The paladin.

He can basicaly blow up every hard enemy in the campaing due to the smite evil and the rules around it. Even if i think that smite evil is pretty unbalanced in power compared with other classes features, thats not the thing.

The thing here is: Paladins are pretty strong, because they have to risk their powers pledging their behaviour to a code, and if they fail in that, they become absolutely nothing but a guy with a really hard time in front of them. I'm not saying i want to nerf my player, i'm just saying that in my opinion i'm making it easy to play a paladin.

So...what can i do to make the paladin's experience more brutal? And i'm talking about making this class feature interesting, add a little pressence to the game, not because of his enemys, but because of his philosophy and code rules. A great power comes with a great responsibility, u know...

Thank you all, tall folks!

Multiple enemies is always the answer to abilities like smite.

Silver Crusade

Graelsis wrote:
Ryll Korr wrote:

As a Paladin of Serenae, I would under no circumstances accept the surrender of something beyond punishment or redemption, such as a lich, demon, dragon, monstrosity of Lamashtu, nor certainly any worshipper or spawn of the rough beast.

** spoiler omitted **

---
There are very specific acts that are clear cut...

So what ur saying is that some creatures are far from redemption even if you are as good as u can?

Ahhh little goblin ... I am not sure if you or your clan has ever encountered creatures such as these. I have faced many head on and yet still stand here. Unlike your kind, which have a penchant for violence but can also be reasoned with, bribed, or intimidated, there are such creatures so vile that they would never actually change their behavior or desires. Not that such a creature would ever offer surrender anyway, but what should I do if a Pit Fiend offered surrender with a "promise" to no longer hurt innocents? Believe such a foul creature? Hah, never!.

No, I have not decided such creatures are too far from redemption; they have decided that for themselves. Further, should you become familiar with the Code of Sarenrae, you might see that the Dawnflower sees no good in such creatures as well, especially those vile enough to worship the Rough Beast.

Should one show that it has truly changed or would like to, then yes I might consider it. Such a thing has never happened in the course of my adventures however.


Quote:

Dont be that GM

Please please please dont be that GM.

...and exactly one post later this same person was suggesting that the OP pepper the campaign with temptations for the paladin to fall (but it'll always be his choice, of course).

In other words, to be precisely "that GM" that grates on the nerves of players of paladins.

- Just, for once, I'd like to klonk something bad on the head and feel good about doing a good job just like that other guy with twice as many feats, and then go to town and enjoy a good brew without 90% of my OOC roleplaying hooks involving how I have to choose between maintaining my honor but risk some sod going to the gallows, or save his ass with certainty but risk falling. (Imagine being a cavalier in which 90% of your OOC roleplaying involves having to deal with a cholicky, incontinent horse when you'd rather be romancing the ladies.)

Has any GM, ever, tempted the barbarian to "fall" lawful? I wonder. (Speaking of other classes that routinely out-damage paladins...)

In an "evil-heavy" AP, does a paladin rock? Sure, until he's out of smites, which isn't very long, because, in one of those great twists of irony, in an evil-heavy campaign, you tend to use them all, and then discover that the last guy you just put down wasn't the Boss Bad after all, but instead just another lieutenant.

(That archer ranger is more end-loaded than the paladin, btw. The paladin gets the CHA bonus to hit while smiting up-front, but additional levels are basically +1 extra damage, whereas the archer is steadily picking up feats and doubling-down on Favored Enemy bonuses; in time, he'll eclipse the paladin in raw output.)


Slim Jim wrote:


Has any GM, ever, tempted the barbarian to "fall" lawful? I wonder. (Speaking of other classes that routinely out-damage paladins...)

Tempting barbarians, paladins and clerics is so passe. Real GMs tempt/screw druids into falling. See how he likes it when he puts on that dragonhide fullplate that was actually a just a glamoured suit of cursed fullplate!


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:


Has any GM, ever, tempted the barbarian to "fall" lawful? I wonder. (Speaking of other classes that routinely out-damage paladins...)

Tempting barbarians, paladins and clerics is so passe. Real GMs tempt/screw druids into falling. See how he likes it when he puts on that dragonhide fullplate that was actually a just a glamoured suit of cursed fullplate!

It's pure gold, you know that stuff that's just found lying around and requires no processing whatsoever. If that ain't natural enough for you, you never deserved those spells.


You may want to consider the fact that your spellcasters are over-extending themselves in combat with no repercussion. Two to three encounters, while they may take entire sessions, shouldn't have realiatically lasted longer than an hour or two. Parties can only rest once a day. So, what are they doing with the reat of this time? Why are the enemies not chasing after them or fortifying their holds?

This doesn't exactly apply to the undead in the mansion, but the haunts definitely reset.

Food for thought.


Ryll Korr wrote:
Graelsis wrote:
Ryll Korr wrote:

As a Paladin of Serenae, I would under no circumstances accept the surrender of something beyond punishment or redemption, such as a lich, demon, dragon, monstrosity of Lamashtu, nor certainly any worshipper or spawn of the rough beast.

** spoiler omitted **

---
There are very specific acts that are clear cut...

So what ur saying is that some creatures are far from redemption even if you are as good as u can?

Ahhh little goblin ... I am not sure if you or your clan has ever encountered creatures such as these. I have faced many head on and yet still stand here. Unlike your kind, which have a penchant for violence but can also be reasoned with, bribed, or intimidated, there are such creatures so vile that they would never actually change their behavior or desires. Not that such a creature would ever offer surrender anyway, but what should I do if a Pit Fiend offered surrender with a "promise" to no longer hurt innocents? Believe such a foul creature? Hah, never!.

No, I have not decided such creatures are too far from redemption; they have decided that for themselves. Further, should you become familiar with the Code of Sarenrae, you might see that the Dawnflower sees no good in such creatures as well, especially those vile enough to worship the Rough Beast.

Should one show that it has truly changed or would like to, then yes I might consider it. Such a thing has never happened in the course of my adventures however.

I like this tall folk too.

Oh and you are right, us goblins have had problems, but until today, the biggest one have been a huge horse with a really bad temper. I told the boss to kill it with no kindness, but he didnt listen, and now Tobias is dead.


Slim Jim wrote:
Quote:

Dont be that GM

Please please please dont be that GM.

...and exactly one post later this same person was suggesting that the OP pepper the campaign with temptations for the paladin to fall (but it'll always be his choice, of course).

In other words, to be precisely "that GM" that grates on the nerves of players of paladins.

- Just, for once, I'd like to klonk something bad on the head and feel good about doing a good job just like that other guy with twice as many feats...

I think this is not about making his roleplaying a pain in the ass for him, its more about making his roleplaying interesting. I dont want to make him hate his class nor changing his character.

Yeah, other classes will do more damage, however, he's invulnerable to sickness, fear, and a lot more in the future. He also can heal himself, or heal other while curing special kind of states, he has spells too, and a magic weapon or a strong mount that came when he needs them.

And where do all of that nice things come from? From a Goddess or a God that believes in what he's doing in her or his name, and that should have a price, and also should be different than roleplaying a warrior who gain nothing but combat experience.

Also, you dont tempt other classes with this kind of situations because following a code is not a important part of their roleplaying, although, i'm sure goods GM will tempt them with other things during the campaing.

Just like when you are a thief and also you are the first to see that beautyfull chest


chkflip wrote:

You may want to consider the fact that your spellcasters are over-extending themselves in combat with no repercussion. Two to three encounters, while they may take entire sessions, shouldn't have realiatically lasted longer than an hour or two. Parties can only rest once a day. So, what are they doing with the reat of this time? Why are the enemies not chasing after them or fortifying their holds?

This doesn't exactly apply to the undead in the mansion, but the haunts definitely reset.

Food for thought.

Ok i will tell you the situation of the mannor so you can maybe help me here.

They went into the fields to find the guls. They found the guls and blow them up (they are pretty much specialized in that so they won that fight with ease).

Then they realized that they havent take a nap since Habe's Asylum, so they decided to go back to Sandpoint and rest.

I warn them "Are you going to rest 9 hours (spell preparing) when you know there's an undead murderer around?"

They talked about that, and decided that 3 spells werent enough for the sorcerer to have, and i think the cleric had 3 or 4 too. The Paladin and the ranger were almost full.

They rest, and Gaven Deverin dies, he was mating with some whores, and since Aldren is focused in lust this time, he decided to kill him for cheating on his wife.
Now Kendra Deverin will leave the government, since she never really wanted it and now she has to deal with her stupid sister in law.

I dont know what should i do with Aldern in the mannor, because u know, he have had 8 hours to realice the group have killed all his guls and also have a key to the mannor

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As much as your players seem to take resting every two encounters or so for granted, I think an out-of-character conversation may be needed. I would tell them that the game is not designed for resting nearly so often, and that is is badly unbalancing the game. Also tell them that you are going to start enforcing things that would happen if they keep resting so much. They may not have any idea that this is not how the game is designed, so they may not get the hints from starting to introduce consequences unless you talk to them first.

Silver Crusade

Honestly Graelsis , your problem is not the paladin, but rather the entire group for resting too often. You need to find some way to push them.

If you let your characters all go supernova every encounter and then rest, they are going to breeze through every fight and later your other PCs are going to be just as much a problem.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:


How to deal with Paladins

Generally, I'd suggest fairly and honestly. They have defect evil and smite, ya know...

This is literally all I came here to add. Carry on.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Make it so they have to cross a 65 foot slippery log across a 200 foot tall waterfall with jagged rocks and a Neired in the pool at the bottom.

That should take care of everything.

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