Tetori grapple question

[Atalius]

When a Tetori at level 4 grapples someone, if I choose to let's say damage my opponent while grappled would I increase my CMB basically +2 (or alternatively lower my enemies CMD by 2)? I say this because this:

The grappled condition "A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.

"A Tetori suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC"

Is that correct or am I not reading it correctly?

[Atalius]

Was anyone able to understand what I was saying?

[Bob Bob Bob]

You're not reading it correctly, though it's not your fault. The specific language of "retains his Dexterity bonus to AC" is meant to counter the equally specific language "loses his Dexterity bonus to AC" which is not something that happens in grapple anymore. Previously (3.5) that was a thing, it's not in Pathfinder. You would still have -4 Dex while grappling as a Tetori.

Now, your opponent would have -2 to their CMD from the -4 Dex but that's something the GM is supposed to be doing.

[Atalius]

Ohh Is that -4 dex just vs the guy in the grapple or would I suffer a -4 dex against people outside the grapple that might be trying to attack me also?

[Bob Bob Bob]

The -4 Dex is the effect of the grappled condition, when you grapple someone you both gain the condition. So yes, you would have -4 Dex. It is -4 Dex score, not mod, so it amounts to a -2 AC and CMD (and possibly attack rolls/combat maneuver checks with Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers). You also have a -2 to all attack rolls and CMB checks not related to the grapple. Again, it's all part of the grappled condition. Here's the full text

[Scott Wilhelm]

But Tetori is not a 3.5 Archetype! Tetori is written for Pathfinder, and it was written after the Core Rulebook. That means that the creator of Tetori must have known that the Grappled Condition no longer simply takes away your Dex Mod to AC, and instead imposes a -4 to Dex.

And Tetori say they retain their Dex bonus to AC. I don't think a Tetori's AC goes down due to Dex loss even if his Dex goes down.

What makes you think otherwise?

Huh.

As I write, it occurs to me that the Grappled Condition causes your Dex to go down by 4 points, and while your Dex Mod to AC might not have changed by virtue of the Tetori Class Ability, I suppose you would make 2 fewer Attacks of Opportunity. The Tetori Ability only preserves your Dex Mod to AC: not your Dex Mod to anything else!

Could Paizo have intended something so convoluted?

[Ferious Thune]

To confuse things more, the Strangler Brawler Archetype ability Practiced Strangler uses this language:

Practiced Strangler wrote:

At 2nd level, when a strangler has the grappled condition, she does not take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and does not lose her Dexterity bonus to AC. At 9th level, a grappling or grappled strangler still threatens an area and is still able to make attacks of opportunity while grappling or grappled; when pinned, she is not denied her Dexterity bonus and does not take a –4 penalty to Armor Class.

This ability replaces AC bonus.

So it calls out not taking the penalty to DEX and not losing your DEX bonus to AC. That makes sense for pinned, but not as much for grappled.

I know that when Tetori was originally published, it had lots of issues that didn’t make sense. (Bonus feats that didn’t exist I think). So this may have been something along those lines. I don’t know how it’s supposed to work, but I would probably let it do something.

[Bob Bob Bob]

In the nicest way, Tetori was a hot mess that had a whole bunch of problems when it was first released. As it turns out, this one was the fault of Paizo as a whole and not that particular author. From this thread, apparently the Core Rulebook used to have a footnote saying that a grappler lost their Dex to AC while the glossary did not. They FAQed in the glossary's favor.

That being said, I'm not aware of any other rulings with regards to this. As it stands the Tetori takes the -4 to Dex while grappling because nothing says they don't. Again, "retains his Dex bonus to AC" is the opposite of "loses his Dex bonus to AC". That's it.

[Atalius]

So what is the "retains his dex bonus to AC" good for I should ask, meaning when would it be used specifically.

[Bob Bob Bob]

It does literally nothing. It was a mistake. When Tetori was published the Core Rulebook had a footnote that said a grappler loses their Dex to AC while grappling. This was brought up with Paizo (because the glossary said differently) and FAQed out of existence. What it fixes is now gone.

[Atalius]

If a Tetori pins his target does the tetori also lose his dex to AC bonus? Or is he just considered "grappled"?

[Bob Bob Bob]

Oh, you're right. That is when it would come up. I missed that line in pinned.

Pin wrote:

You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

So it has exactly one use!