Woodenman |
Hi all,
I need some help to make sure Im doing this correctly....
I have an Inquisitor who just received his 6th xp ([u]but has not played at Level 3 yet[/u]).
I want to retrain him from a vanilla Inquisitor to the Ravener Hunter Archetype.
The potentially relevantc RH abilities are:
Charged by Nature (Acquired at Level 1, Replaces vanilla level 1 ability)
Holy Magic (Acquired at Level 1, alters vanilla level 1 ability)
Demon Hunter (Acquired at Level 3, replaces the teamwork feat gained at Level 3)
Retraining an Archetype
You can use the retraining rules to acquire an archetype for your class or abandon an archetype you have. To gain an archetype that replaces standard class abilities you already have, you must spend 5 days for every alternate class feature you would add, subtract, or replace by taking that archetype. At the end of the training period, you lose the standard class features and replace them with the archetype’s alternate class features (if any).
Unless stated otherwise, retraining costs gp equal to 10 × your level × the number of days required to retrain as well as 1 Prestige Point per day of retraining since time between adventures is undefined.
I guess I have the following questions...
For the purposes of retraining, is the inquisitor level 2 (because not yet played at L3) or level 3 (which means I need to pay for an extra ability)
Does holy magic count as an ability I need to pay for? (Since it alters an ability and does not add, subtract or replace)
shaventalz |
For the purposes of retraining, is the inquisitor level 2 (because not yet played at L3) or level 3 (which means I need to pay for an extra ability)
My personal view has always been that you don't level up from XP gain until you finish filling out the chronicle sheet. No bonuses the new level would give you (say, on Day Job checks), but also lower retraining costs. It would also have an impact on certain faction journal card goals. This is just my opinion, though.
Does holy magic count as an ability I need to pay for? (Since it alters an ability and does not add, subtract or replace)
It's adding a class feature (Holy Magic.) That class feature doesn't replace anything, but it is a feature that vanilla inquisitors don't get. I would say yes, pay for it.
Hmm Venture-Captain, Minnesota |
So can you treat yourself as the earlier level for the purpose of retraining before leveling up?
This is a rules grey area, but I generally rule in favor of players in grey areas. I think you could pay off the retrain as Level Two here, and yes Holy Magic would be a class feature you would have to replace.
Is this for a character in online play, Woodenman?
Hmm
Woodenman |
So can you treat yourself as the earlier level for the purpose of retraining before leveling up?
This is a rules grey area, but I generally rule in favor of players in grey areas. I think you could pay off the retrain as Level Two here, and yes Holy Magic would be a class feature you would have to replace.
Is this for a character in online play, Woodenman?
Hmm
Thanks for chiming in HMM. Yes, I play exclusively online.
I ask because the standard PFS level 1 retraining still applies when you have 3 xp but before you play at level 2. So I’m curious if I can retrain at 6 xp and count as Level 2 before I play at Level 3.
Holy Magic alters the Spells class feature and retraining only cares about adding, subtracting or replacing class features. According to the specific text anyway.
Depending on which way the answers go, I will have to pay 5, 10 or 15 pp for the retraining. The latter two of which I don’t have enough to actually pay.
SCPRedMage |
Holy Magic alters the Spells class feature and retraining only cares about adding, subtracting or replacing class features.
Close, but not quite.
To gain an archetype that replaces standard class abilities you already have, you must spend 5 days for every alternate class feature you would add, subtract, or replace by taking that archetype.
It's the alternate class features that the archetype provides that determine retaining cost; things like Charged by Nature and Holy Magic, not the standard class features they modify or replace.
Woodenman |
Fair enough. I can’t say that I’m 100% convinced but everyone else seems to agree that Holy Magic needs to be paid for as a feature. Which means I need to pay at least 10pp.... which I don’t have. Which means I will level up to 3 and make the cost at least 15pp.
It seems I will need to consign that archetype to a different character...... I seem to say that a lot.
Ascalaphus Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden |
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There are murmurings that retraining may be rethought by the leadership. The extremely varied cost of retraining an archetype for example isn't really working out well. Some archetypes split their goods up into a dozen features, others press it all into a single ability that does everything. Those two archetypes have very different retrain costs - an indication that retraining costs aren't designed robustly.
Quentin Coldwater Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht |
There are murmurings that retraining may be rethought by the leadership. The extremely varied cost of retraining an archetype for example isn't really working out well. Some archetypes split their goods up into a dozen features, others press it all into a single ability that does everything. Those two archetypes have very different retrain costs - an indication that retraining costs aren't designed robustly.
I agree. I have a low-level character I wish to train out of an archetype but it'll never be possible because of the number of class features I trade out is way higher than my prestige total required. I'll have to play for roughly three more levels with a character I'm not really enjoying before I can abandon the archetype. And when I level up, I'll add more class features I need to train out of again. It's an uphill struggle.
supervillan |
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Can we find a way to make the cost of retraining an archetype more similar to the cost of retraining a class? Conceptually that seems to me to be reasonable, but I haven't considered how many levels someone would potentially want/need to retrain when switching an archetype.
I think that for one of my wife's characters we once looked at retraining into an archetype and found it impossible because of the PP cost, and ended up retraining into a different class instead.
Quentin Coldwater Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht |
Yeah, a static cost seems more fair to me, especially to front-loaded archetypes. 10 PP or so is big enough that you don't abuse it by switching archetypes in between missions, but makes lower-level "mistakes" easier undone (as in my case, in which I needed 20 PP at level 4. By the time I had that, I'd be one level up and gained another feature I need to get rid of).
Ascalaphus Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden |
Hmm Venture-Captain, Minnesota |
Ferious Thune |
Yeah. It feels like there was an attempt to make it the other way around, but it backfired. Most archetypes add a few things. Maybe 4 or 5 over the course of the character’s career. So for a 10th level character that’s had four new things from the archetype, it is a lot cheaper to retrain the archetype than all of the class levels. But a lot of the archetypes are heavily weighted to early levels, with some altering three or four things at first or second level. Suddenly those are incredibly expensive to retrain.
Ascalaphus Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden |
Hmm Venture-Captain, Minnesota |
Agreed. But in most regular campaigns, if you don’t like what you are playing, the GM allows you to just change it or to make minor updates to the character. I think the UC retraining rules are likely only used in PFS...
Though it’s also possible I suppose that without the prestige cost they’re less onerous. The GM can declare downtime, let everyone else earn money or make contacts, and then give the player all the retraining time they need. It’s only here in PFS with the prestige costs that archetype and skill retraining become so expensive that no one does them.
Hmm
shaventalz |
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Even outside of PFS, the rules for retraining archetypes have problems (especially obvious at lower levels.)
As per the rules, "Swapping one archetype for another requires two retraining sessions: one to abandon the archetype, and then one to gain the new one." Now consider a simple example: Dreadnought barbarian retraining to Armored Hulk barbarian. Dreadnought changes rage and fast movement, so that's 10 days to drop the archetype. Then Armored Hulk changes proficiencies and fast movement, so that's at least another 10 days (+5 days at 2nd, 3rd, and 5th.) Until 3rd level, it's easier to completely change classes and become a fighter, then change again to become the "right" barbarian (and it breaks even at 3rd.)
Ascalaphus Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden |
DesolateHarmony |
Is there a rule against having multiple archetypes of the same class?
It's not allowed if they replace or alter the same class feature. Otherwise, you can have multiple archetypes.
Alternate Class Features
Most of the options presented on the following pages include a host of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the elemental fist class feature of the monk of the four winds replaces the stunning fist class feature of the monk. When an archetype includes multiple class features, a character must take all of them—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain familiar class features, but replacing them with equally powerful options. All of the other class features found in the core class and not mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level (unless noted otherwise). A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.
A lot of archetypes for rogue modify or replace only a single class feature, so they are easy to stack. Other classes often have a more difficult time. Here's a Guide from before the Advanced Class Guide that figured out possibilities. It is pretty good.