My idea is to have a flexible DEX based fighting style with a glaive.
The build I plan would look like this:
1 Fighter, Weapon Focus Glaive, Bladed Brush
2 UC Rogue Weapon finesse with glaive possible due to bladed brush
3 UC Rogue TWF and Combat Trick: Spear Dancing Spiral
4 UC Rogue Dex to damage with Glaive
Now I have dex to attack rolls and dex to damage for everything I do with the glaive and I can:
- 2H the glaive with reach and with Dex x1.5 to damage
- 2H the glaive adjacent with Dex x1.5 to damage in the bladed brush "short grip"
- TWF with the glaive adjacent with dex x1/dex x0.5 to damage
Obviously the character worships Shelyn :-)
Did I get this right?
A variation would be:
1 Ranger Weapon Focus Glaive
2 UC Rogue Weapon finesse
3 UC Rogue Bladed Brush and Combat Trick: TWF
4 UC Rogue Dex to damage with Glaive
5 Ranger Spear Dancing Spiral and 2H Style Feat Power attack
This takes longer to come together but would give me Power attack even with STR 8 because the style feats don't need to meet prerequsites and are always usable.
Still works, right?
Source Paths of the Righteous pg. 15
You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of Shelyn.
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
Edit - spelling & format :-)
Perhaps this has been addressed in a FAQ and I am wrong, but I think a
"weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse" means it has to be a weapon with that ability as part of the weapon, not any weapon YOU can use with weapon finesse.
That would make Glaive an invalid choice for this ability, regardless of what how you can use a Glaive.
I'm also not sure what Spear Dancing Spiral is giving you. You don't seem to have any quarterstaff feats or abilities.
Also, without the base Spear Dancing Style I don't think you can use it at all.
Correct, without Spear Dancing Style, Spear Dancing Spiral isn't terribly useful. Plus, the first build doesn't have a way to get Spear Dancing Spiral without going through Spear Dancing Style first unless I'm missing something--Combat Trick does not bypass prerequisites.
Also, without the base Spear Dancing Style I don't think you can use it at all.
True it should be spear dancing style not spiral. I would @#€&*% before I'd take three feats/abilities to finesse the same weapon.
It is meant to give the TWF with the glaive.
+1 blahpers
Perhaps this has been addressed in a FAQ and I am wrong, but I think a "weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse" means it has to be a weapon with that ability as part of the weapon, not any weapon YOU can use with weapon finesse.
No such FAQ so far. The dagger and rapier are called out in the class because they are core weapons commonly used with Weapon Finesse. Not to mention, the option of a two-handed weapon is specifically called out in the FAQ. (FAQ Link)
If you have a feat that says you can use the glaive with Weapon Finesse, or a class feature that does the same thing (Fighter's Finesse, for example), then for that character, said weapon can be used with Weapon Finesse. There's no mention of a size limit, so a spear or polearm would still be valid.
My idea is to have a flexible DEX based fighting style with a glaive.
The build I plan would look like this:
1 Fighter, Weapon Focus Glaive, Bladed Brush
2 UC Rogue Weapon finesse with glaive possible due to bladed brush
3 UC Rogue TWF and Combat Trick: Spear Dancing Style
4 UC Rogue Dex to damage with Glaive
5 Fighter
6 Fighter, full movement in medium armorNow I have dex to attack rolls and dex to damage for everything I do with the glaive and I can:
- 2H the glaive with reach and with Dex x1.5 to damage
- 2H the glaive adjacent with Dex x1.5 to damage in the bladed brush "short grip"
- TWF with the glaive adjacent with dex x1/dex x0.5 to damageObviously the character worships Shelyn :-)
Did I get this right?
Yep. Plus move actions to switch between normal and short grips, or a swift action to activate the Spear Dancing Style.
Also, made an extension on your 4-level plan above. Hit level 3 fighter for armor training and the ability to move normally in medium armor. Afterwards, taking more rogue levels for Sneak Attack or whatever suits your fancy.
A variation would be:
1 Ranger Weapon Focus Glaive
2 UC Rogue Weapon finesse
3 UC Rogue Bladed Brush and Combat Trick: TWF
4 UC Rogue Dex to damage with Glaive
5 Ranger Spear Dancing Style and 2H Style Feat Power attackThis takes longer to come together but would give me Power attack even with STR 8 because the style feats don't need to meet prerequsites and are always usable.
Still works, right?
Yep. Almost seems a waste of the Combat Trick to spend it on TWF, but it works. Quite an intriguing way of granting Power Attack without the Strength minimum. I'll end up using this myself on a character someday, I'm sure. :)
I have a similar build. Expect a lot of table variation based on whether the ref considers finesse to apply.
Alternatively, consider 3 levels of Phalanx Soldier. Still, one of the nice things about your build is the wording is pretty solid, much less ambiguous than other builds.
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Finesse training has the same problem:
Finesse Training (Ex): At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.
For me that mean "any weapon that can be use by anyone with weapon finesse", not "any weapon that you can use with weapon finesse". Some other people see it differently. Ask your GM and aspect table variations.
To me this seems to be mainly due to the fact that neither bladed brush nor spear dancing style were written when the UC rogue was created. So the wording could take these later options into account.
From time to time I get the impression that the number of rules has grown so unwieldy that even the developers on occasion lose the overview.
Our discussion here reminds me of the threads on bladed brush with slashing grace. There the wording actually doesn't allow the combination. Still it seems very unclear if that was the intention of the devs as the rest of both feats feels like it was meant just to be used together.
1 urban barbarian or bloodrager, Extra Rage
2 fighter, WF Glaive
3 u-rogue (weapon finesse), Bladed Brush
4 fighter, Slashing Grace
...now take rogue up to 3rd for a second weapon you'll get dex-to-damage in (it'll have to be an actual light weapon, such as a kukri).
You'll want to take Power Attack, so keep your strength up enough for it, since Bladed Brush won't make the glaive light to qualify for Piranha Strike (which is fine for the kukri).
There's a whole thread on why Slashing Grace doesn't work with Bladed Brush.Really?
Has there been any faq?
One thread? actually many. My takeaway was that bladed brush doesn't state that your second hand counts as empty which would be required by slashing grace. Fron the wording RAI might go either way...
No FAQ to my knowledge so far.But this was just an example of me getting the feeling that the devs start loosing the overview of the options and discussions they're creating.
Back to the core question, do I get dex to damage with the glaive :-)
Perhaps this has been addressed in a FAQ and I am wrong, but I think a
"weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse" means it has to be a weapon with that ability as part of the weapon, not any weapon YOU can use with weapon finesse.That would make Glaive an invalid choice for this ability, regardless of what how you can use a Glaive.
I'm also not sure what Spear Dancing Spiral is giving you. You don't seem to have any quarterstaff feats or abilities.
would it really matter where the finesse came from. Dave, I hope you don't me too much using your earlier post. "against" you?
Would a barbarian sylph fly faster? Barbarian fast movement doesn't say explicitly that it doesn't effect fly speed, but it does say it effects 'land speed' and therefore not fly speed.
In my opinion, wings of air fly speed being calculated from base land speed will be effected by things that change base land speed even if those things can't directly effect a fly speed.
A character with +2 Natural Armor and a +3 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor from Barkskin still has +2 Natural Armor.As far as I understand all of the rules, this is entirely incorrect. As an example, a character with a STR or 12 and a +2 enhancement bonus to STR (that lasts 24 hours) can take power attack, and as long as they have that enhancement bonus they qualify for power attack and can use it. The last part would be true even if they later lost the 'permanent' enhancement bonus and had to rely on a temporary one, like bull's str. For the duration of the spell, they would be able to use power attack just as if their STR was above 13 unchanged.
and the following post
As far as I understand all of the rules, this is entirely incorrect.You understand correctly. The game goes out of its way to treat stats as stats as far as their impact on the game mechanics, regardless of whether they are 'natural', or enhanced.
From an objective standpoint, there are two things that need to be done for the UCRogue feature to work.
1. You pick a weapon type (i.e. daggers, rapiers, etc).
2. That weapon choice has to have the option to be used with Weapon Finesse.
A Glaive modified by the Bladed Brush feat is a weapon type that can be used with Weapon Finesse, so it objectively meets the requirements pointed out in the feature. Anyone arguing otherwise just hates rogues and/or Dex-to-Damage options (which Paizo does, so don't be surprised if you make a FAQ and they say no, or errata the option into uselessness).
Re-reading the Bladed Brush feat, while I can see how the argument is that he can't use it with Slashing Grace (even though he is considered not attacking with an off-hand, his hand is still occupied holding the weapon), the intent is quite clear that the "off-hand attack" clause is supposed to cover the "hand holding a weapon" issue, and really only serves as a stickler for Anti-Power-Creep GMs and Rules Lawyers that need to dot their i's and cross their t's.
You're probably better off not doing the glaive (which is frankly one of the underwhelming polearms) and instead relying on Long Arm to TWF a pair of actual light weapons.
(high dexterity concept)
1 bloodrager (urban) Extra Rage, Combat Reflexes
2 rogue
3 rogue (combat trick: twf), Piranha Strike
4 rogue ...etc
Buy a wand of Long Arm, which you won't need UMD to activate because it's on the bloodrager list, and Controlled Rage for +4 dexterity. It only lasts a minute, but it's really cheap and effective.
Finesse training has the same problem:
Finesse Training (Ex): At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.For me that mean "any weapon that can be use by anyone with weapon finesse", not "any weapon that you can use with weapon finesse". Some other people see it differently. Ask your GM and aspect table variations.
I think if they meant any weapon that anyone could use with weapon finesse, they just would have said "with a light weapon or naturally finessable." If a weapon can be used with finesse, it can be used with Weapon Finesse.
The closest FAQ example we have is the Bastard Sword. As more rules are put out more handedness and stat crossovers are happening. However the original rule we have to look to for interpretation, until we hear otherwise, still needs to be the bastard sword.
That FAQ shows that the weapon is defined by how it is used. If it is used as a finessable weapon, it is a finesse weapon. If it is proficiently used as a 2 hand weapon, it is a 2 hand weapon for other feats and abilities. The same should be true for light and one handed weapons as well. If feats or abilities require additional restrictions they are likely to be called out in the text.
The closest FAQ example we have is the Bastard Sword. As more rules are put out more handedness and stat crossovers are happening. However the original rule we have to look to for interpretation, until we hear otherwise, still needs to be the bastard sword.
That FAQ shows that the weapon is defined by how it is used. If it is used as a finessable weapon, it is a finesse weapon. If it is proficiently used as a 2 hand weapon, it is a 2 hand weapon for other feats and abilities. The same should be true for light and one handed weapons as well. If feats or abilities require additional restrictions they are likely to be called out in the text.
So what would your ruling be, dex to damage or not?
Objectively, the UCRogue class feature would work because the feature only requires that the weapon be usable with Weapon Finesse, which Bladed Brush enables as an option for you to take. Of course, without Bladed Brush, you couldn't select it as an option at 3rd level UCRogue (because at the time of selection, it's not a weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse), and would have to either wait until 11th level, or retrain that option at a later date with someone who has that specific feature (which is very slim, I might add).
Subjectively, the class feature doesn't assume that outside sources increase the number of "standard" options, but I don't think this argument holds water because there's no finite way to define "standard" options without excluding other options that are explicitly stated to work (such as "Light weapons only," resulting in excluding rapiers, a specifically mentioned weapon that's viable with this option).
Bladelock's FAQ reference is a good starting point in a general sense regarding weapon utilization. Feats like Bladed Brush modify those general rules in the exceptions where it says it does, so taking the FAQ ruling and applying Bladed Brush effects would probably be where his stance is, and is where an objective stand would be located (as I've explained above).
Objectively, the UCRogue class feature would work because the feature only requires that the weapon be usable with Weapon Finesse, which Bladed Brush enables as an option for you to take. Of course, without Bladed Brush, you couldn't select it as an option at 3rd level UCRogue (because at the time of selection, it's not a weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse), and would have to either wait until 11th level, or retrain that option at a later date with someone who has that specific feature (which is very slim, I might add).
Subjectively, the class feature doesn't assume that outside sources increase the number of "standard" options, but I don't think this argument holds water because there's no finite way to define "standard" options without excluding other options that are explicitly stated to work (such as "Light weapons only," resulting in excluding rapiers, a specifically mentioned weapon that's viable with this option).
Bladelock's FAQ reference is a good starting point in a general sense regarding weapon utilization. Feats like Bladed Brush modify those general rules in the exceptions where it says it does, so taking the FAQ ruling and applying Bladed Brush effects would probably be where his stance is, and is where an objective stand would be located (as I've explained above).
I would say ninja'd but Darksol was far more thorough than my response would have been. Agree on all points.
If I tally this correctly its:
Works 4
ask your table 2
Won't work 1
So I think I'll call it a day and say it works. My table would only ask me how the forum ruled ;-)
Edit: format
I have a thread here about the contradictions in the FAQs so far seeking clarification on this issue.