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Help me build a caster


Advice

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Hello people!
i'm gonna play soon a new campaign in a 4 party member.
They have choosen Barbarian, Paladin and Slayer. All characters are optimized.
The leitmotiv of the campaign will be based on fighting Deamons.
I want to make a caster that can help party with some knowledge, buffs and able to do something in combat, but i don't know what to choose between arcane or divine.
The creation system is 25 point buy and i can use all Paizo manuals.
Can you help me creating an optimized caster please.
Thanks in advice.

Ps: sorry for my bad english.


Wizard or bard are both good options.


Assuming Level 1

Elf (Arcane Focus: Grants a +2 Concentration, gives up elven weapon proficiency)

Level 1 Arcanist
Dimensional Step Exploit
Extra Exploit Feat: Potent Magic

High Int, high Charisma, med Dex

@ level 3 grab Quick Study Exploit


Cleric or Summoners are viable too for this role?


Never played an Arcanist could be pretty sweet^^


Your party currently lacks any divine or arcane caster, so you could go either direction. One thing to be aware of is that daemons tend to have lots of resistances, immunities, and SR. This means you need to be careful with the kinds of magic you use.

With that in mind, here's a very reliable build that could work for you:

Elf Wizard
Str 10
Dex 14+2
Con 14-2
Int 18+2
Wis 10
Cha 8

Specialized school: Conjuration (Teleportation focused school)
Opposition schools: Evocation, Enchantment

Feats (up to 10th):
1 - Spell Penetration
3 - Greater Spell Penetration
5 - Craft Wondrous Item, Fast Study
7 - Dimensional Agility
9 - Extend Spell
10 - Quicken Spell

The arcanist mentioned earlier would also work fine here. Very similar idea. Cleric or Summoner would both work as well, if you'd prefer to pursue those options. The current party is missing a lot of roles, so there are many important niches you could fill.


Etriel wrote:

Cleric or Summoners are viable too for this role?

Actually, a Summoning Focused Evangelist Cleric would be amazing in this party.

Evangelist gets Bardic Performance as a built-in buff. As a cleric, you qualify for Sacred Summoning feat. With Heroism Domain you get a really nice Level 8 power. By Level 8 you should be able to Standard action Summon a mini Army, Move action Bardic Perform, and swift action Heroism Domain. Basically, the group then goes into Hyperdrive and will have no problems hitting or doing very good buffed up damage.

Funny thing is to do all that it is just a single Feat investment. Which is really awesome and leaves you plenty of feats to flesh out the character more. You could easily Add in a reach package with a long spear with Combat reflexes and Power attack. Or you can focus more on casting with metamagic. Or further go down the road of summoning with Spell focus, Augmented summoning, and Superior Summoning. It leaves you a ton of choices.

Silver Crusade

Louise Bishop wrote:
Etriel wrote:

Cleric or Summoners are viable too for this role?

Actually, a Summoning Focused Evangelist Cleric would be amazing in this party.

Evangelist gets Bardic Performance as a built-in buff. As a cleric, you qualify for Sacred Summoning feat. With Heroism Domain you get a really nice Level 8 power. By Level 8 you should be able to Standard action Summon a mini Army, Move action Bardic Perform, and swift action Heroism Domain. Basically, the group then goes into Hyperdrive and will have no problems hitting or doing very good buffed up damage.

Funny thing is to do all that it is just a single Feat investment. Which is really awesome and leaves you plenty of feats to flesh out the character more. You could easily Add in a reach package with a long spear with Combat reflexes and Power attack. Or you can focus more on casting with metamagic. Or further go down the road of summoning with Spell focus, Augmented summoning, and Superior Summoning. It leaves you a ton of choices.

This screams for Flagbearer Feat


Oh you are all great, in few minutes i got all this wonderful ideas!!!
The problem now it's that i'm more undecided.
I know we miss many important role so i'm free to do whareve.
If i go Cleric i will miss tons of knowledge and spells like identify or teleport.
If i go Wizard/Arcanist i will miss spells like raise dead cuz the melee nature of the party.
Help clear my mind to make a decision. We start play next monday.


I would probably go with

Int 16 (18 w/ elf)
Dex 14 (16 w/elf)
Con 12 (10 w/Elf)
Char 16
Str 8
Wis 10

Traits: Elven Reflexes, Focused Mind

Then when you choose your spells go for protection early, advance to buff/blast

Lots of good exploits in Arcanist to make you the swiss army knife

One down side is that you have to wait one level to advance spell level (not caster level), but you actually will normally have more spells.

You may also want to go with a School Savant Archtpe, at which point I would consider using my feat for Breadth of Experience as you can't take exploits until level 5.

Divination is surprisingly good, as is transmutation, evoker

Not fond of Enchantment, Abjuration

Ok/not great: Conjuring, Illusion, Necromancy


DonKalleOne wrote:
Louise Bishop wrote:
Etriel wrote:

Cleric or Summoners are viable too for this role?

Actually, a Summoning Focused Evangelist Cleric would be amazing in this party.

Evangelist gets Bardic Performance as a built-in buff. As a cleric, you qualify for Sacred Summoning feat. With Heroism Domain you get a really nice Level 8 power. By Level 8 you should be able to Standard action Summon a mini Army, Move action Bardic Perform, and swift action Heroism Domain. Basically, the group then goes into Hyperdrive and will have no problems hitting or doing very good buffed up damage.

Funny thing is to do all that it is just a single Feat investment. Which is really awesome and leaves you plenty of feats to flesh out the character more. You could easily Add in a reach package with a long spear with Combat reflexes and Power attack. Or you can focus more on casting with metamagic. Or further go down the road of summoning with Spell focus, Augmented summoning, and Superior Summoning. It leaves you a ton of choices.

This screams for Flagbearer Feat

I tend to keep Cha at a 10 and forsake channeling altogether. So I never qualify for Flagbearer but it is possible with VMC to get your channels back up and above a typical cleric. But you do lose lots of feats. Tho really with the Sacred summoning build you hardly need more than a few feats anyways. So with a human you can accomplish all the feats you would "Need".

Liberty's Edge

Etriel wrote:

Oh you are all great, in few minutes i got all this wonderful ideas!!!

The problem now it's that i'm more undecided.
I know we miss many important role so i'm free to do whareve.
If i go Cleric i will miss tons of knowledge and spells like identify or teleport.
If i go Wizard/Arcanist i will miss spells like raise dead cuz the melee nature of the party.
Help clear my mind to make a decision. We start play next monday.

Covering all these bases with one character is going to be difficult.

A Cleric with the Travel Domain will get Fly, Dimension Door, and Teleport as domain spells which helps cover some of the bases.

A Witch blends both spell lists quite well, and has the skill points to boot.

A Shaman brings things a step further with its wandering spirit, but it's also very hard to learn.


For what it is worth I would go with the arcane caster. Eventualy your Paladin will be able to do some of the divine side of things

One idea, I am Reluctant to mention

Level 1-5 levels of wizard (or 1-6 Arcanist), take Faith Magic at level 5 (Or arcane Exploit/Arcane Mystery/Faith Magic at 6)
Take 1 level in a divine spellcaster class (Probably Cleric)
Begin as Magical Thurge

Chang trait to Magical Knack or (Can't remember name but "saves" two caster levels


Never played one, but I think Shaman might be the best fit, being able to cover the healing and offence/buff/debuff fairly ok


The only problem with a sacred summoner will be the time i'm gonna spend in my turn using all the minions. The party members gonna kill me cuz they want to "BREAK EVERYTHING" as fast as possible =(
Maybe the arcane route would be the one...


Dandy is right: Make that witch

*Healing/Raise dead
*Teleportation
* IDentify


Can you tell me an optimized version of Shaman and Witch for this party? (never playder this classes)
BTW reading the Arcanist and the post of Louise Bishop i'm in love with those <3


Etriel wrote:

The only problem with a sacred summoner will be the time i'm gonna spend in my turn using all the minions. The party members gonna kill me cuz they want to "BREAK EVERYTHING" as fast as possible =(

Maybe the arcane route would be the one...

Too bad for them.

The summoning aspect of it provided the COntrol of the Battlefield and offers other targets for the enemy to hit reducing the need to heal as much. They also are a source of Damage. Lantern Archons are amazing with Ray touch attacks that bypass all forms of DR. Summon enough they will cause plenty of damage. The rays are also weapons so they will hardly miss. Lastly, they provide SLA spells to buff your teammates after the fight for the next one.

Do not let their impatience stop you from playing something that will benefit them. Because the team is 3 melee guys they will be taking a lot of damage without any control or healing. This build offers both at the same time.


In low caster parties a shaman, human or half human, is amazing.

Start with 18 wis 14 cha and 14 int. Use the human FCB to grab cleric spells. Make arcane enlightenment you standard wandering hex.

Now you can cast shaman spells, cleric spells, spirit spells, and wizard spells. Best of all you have hexes evil eye, chant, misfortune, to save the spells for when you need the most.

You can take the life spirit and a protector familiar if you want to do a bit of healing. Fire for some offense. This is among the most versatile characters in the game.

It is also very hard and require preparation and research.


Louise Bishop wrote:
Etriel wrote:

The only problem with a sacred summoner will be the time i'm gonna spend in my turn using all the minions. The party members gonna kill me cuz they want to "BREAK EVERYTHING" as fast as possible =(

Maybe the arcane route would be the one...

Too bad for them.

The summoning aspect of it provided the COntrol of the Battlefield and offers other targets for the enemy to hit reducing the need to heal as much. They also are a source of Damage. Lantern Archons are amazing with Ray touch attacks that bypass all forms of DR. Summon enough they will cause plenty of damage. The rays are also weapons so they will hardly miss. Lastly, they provide SLA spells to buff your teammates after the fight for the next one.

Do not let their impatience stop you from playing something that will benefit them. Because the team is 3 melee guys they will be taking a lot of damage without any control or healing. This build offers both at the same time.

An alternate version of this build would have you take the animal domain and boon companion, maybe flagbearer. This gives the extra body to take and do damage, control (grapple / trip) or protect (bodyguard, in harms way). Divine favor goes along way on a pounce for extra team damage.

It is similar to the summoning build but the action spent summoning can be spent doing to other things. I took a quick peak at the cr of summons I think a good animal companion out performs them in melee. It also doe not stop you from summoning if you chose to do so when you need those spell like abilities.

This may be more palatable to you group.

Silver Crusade

While all suggestions are great.
Can I ask what kind Slayer/Barb/Paladin they are?
Are they all Melee?

Then I have a simple extremely effective suggestion for you.
Go Evok School Specialised Arcanist.
The Summoning Cleric will have Problems because of space and any Controller has difficulty cause all 3 Melees make it difficult to place the spells right.

The Arcanist needs only the Following: Toppling, Magic Tattoo (Evocation) , Spell Focus (Evocation) and the Trait Magical Linage (Magic Missile)/precious Spellcaster (MM) and Potent Magic (Exploit).

And thefollowing Spells:
(1) Magic Missile and Burning Hands
(2) Flaming Sphere or Thunder Cloud
(3) Fire Ball or Lightning Bolt

All other Spells are free to choose.

I suggest around level 5-6 Lesser Extend Rod and Lesser Elemental Rod

What do you gain with this?
Firstly are Highly Versatile Caster with many Skill Points and only 1 Damage spell per Level needed.
Potent Magic will Buff the CasterLevel or DC by 2 of a spell you choose.
This Means either more Damage or higher Difficulty to resist.

But why the Focus on Magic Missile?
3 Reason: Force is almost never Resisted, it will Always hit and Toppling will get the Enemy Prone which is every Melee Fighters wet dream.
You get Multiple Missile which can hit several enemys or the same.
You get as many Trip attempts (See Battering Blast) as Missile Hit.

Example (@LvL 3) you have CL 7 which means 4 MM (3+1(Tattoo)+1(Trait)+2(Potent Magic)) with every Missile having +12 (5 from Int +7 Caster Level) to Trip.

Don't need MM? Use Potent Magic elsewhere and your Damage Spells have in general Higher DCs and CL anyway.
Only after LvL 8 you loose the benefit from the CL Trait which is tolerable.

I have a Tattooed Sorceress build this way and shes great even if she is not as versatile as an Arcanist.


Optimising I would go into an arcane class, mostly for haste. With 3 optimized beatsticks haste is by far the single best first spell you can cast in most any fight

If you want to specialize in buffing go brown fur transmuter arcanist. Turn the party into hasted giants and sit back for a smoke. Arcanist is probably the most forgiving of the arcane casters so long as you can understand that casting a spell every round will burn you out quick. In other words manage your spellslots and your good

I like DonKalle's suggestion but I prefer focusing on the spell battering blast(instead of magic missile although it would remain very useful) due to its much higher scaling and built in control. Due to all the party comp I would avoid the typical dazing fireball build if you wanted a control "blaster"

Silver Crusade

Dastis wrote:

Optimising I would go into an arcane class, mostly for haste. With 3 optimized beatsticks haste is by far the single best first spell you can cast in most any fight

If you want to specialize in buffing go brown fur transmuter arcanist. Turn the party into hasted giants and sit back for a smoke. Arcanist is probably the most forgiving of the arcane casters so long as you can understand that casting a spell every round will burn you out quick. In other words manage your spellslots and your good

I like DonKalle's suggestion but I prefer focusing on the spell battering blast(instead of magic missile although it would remain very useful) due to its much higher scaling and built in control. Due to all the party comp I would avoid the typical dazing fireball build if you wanted a control "blaster"

Haste is brilliant and I should have mentioned it. And theres no Problem integrating it cause he only needs 1 Damage Spell per Spell-Level.

Battering Blast is a great Option but its a LvL 3 Spell and Magic Missile works from LvL 1 and it gets only weaker later where you have more potent options (like Battering Blast)


@DonKalleOne all other characters are full melee oriented to make as more damage as possible.
Tonight i will make some characters so you can help me optimizing


Did this as a sample

The character does trade a little power for the ability to be good with some skills (Breadth of xp is really good for ks characters)

Unnamed Hero
Elf unlettered arcanist 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 8, 78, 79)
NG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +3
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex)
hp 7 (1d6+1)
Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +2; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks arcane reservoir (1/4), consume spells
Arcane School Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +8)
. . 8/day—telekinetic fist (1d4 bludgeoning)
Unlettered Arcanist Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +8)
. . 1st (4/day)—cure light wounds, enlarge person (DC 16), mage armor
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, light, read magic
. . Opposition Schools Evocation, Necromancy
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD 12
Feats Breadth Of Experience[APG]
Traits focused mind, warrior of old
Skills Knowledge (arcana) +11, Knowledge (planes) +11, Knowledge (religion) +11, Perception +3, Spellcraft +9 (+11 to identify magic item properties), Stealth +4, Use Magic Device +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Spellcraft to identify magic item properties
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Sylvan
SQ arcane focus[ARG], elven magic, opposition schools (evocation, necromancy), physical enhancement (+1), specialized school (transmutation)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Focus +2 to concentration checks to cast arcane spells defensively.
Arcane Reservoir +1 DC or CL (4/day) (Su) Pool of points fuel exploits, or can expend to add +1 CL or DC while cast spell.
Consume Spells (2/day) (Su) As a move action, expend a spell slot to add its spell levels to arcane reservoir.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Evocation You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Evocation school.
Familiar Bonus: +2 Initiative You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
Physical Enhancement +1 (Dexterity) (Su) When preparing spells, chosen physical attribute gains enhancement bonus.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Telekinetic Fist (1d4 bludgeoning, 8/day) (Sp) As a standard action, ranged touch deals bludgeon dam vs. foe in 30 ft.
Transmutation Transmuters use magic to change the world around them.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.


I would advise against the Unlettered Arcanist. It just gives you too many of the Witch's downsides without giving you their advantages. If you got access to hexes or even patron spells this archetype might be more competitive, but as it stands you should either stick with Arcanist or Witch; the middle ground this archetype offers is pretty poor.

Breadth of Experience is also a very poor feat. Generally feats that only give skill bonuses should be avoided unless you have some means to weaponize that skill in combat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dasrak wrote:
Breadth of Experience is also a very poor feat. Generally feats that only give skill bonuses should be avoided unless you have some means to weaponize that skill in combat.

I could easily see this comment derailing the entire thread, so let's be gentlefolk and take the discussion behind spoiler tags, shall we?

Breadth of Experience:
This entirely depends on your play style. If you are only concerned about maximizing your DPR, then yes, skill feats are generally suboptimal. But if you are more interested in story and roleplay, they can be indispensable.

In this instance, it looks like the party is going to have little problem stomping on combat encounters. But it's very likely they are seriously lacking in skills and Int. In that type of party, taking a feat to boost Knowledge could be the best option available.

Breadth of Experience is also uniquely interesting because it provides an equivalent of 22+ ranks (depending on how many Profession skills you count,) compared to the normal feats like Skill Focus or Persuasive which offer 3 or 4 ranks. Now, no one will claim that a rank in Knowledge (nobility) is equivalently valuable as a rank in Perception or Diplomacy, but it's still a pretty massive boost for one feat.


Thank you for the defense Rumpin, I could not (and I did try) to say it better. As for the unlettered, not my first choice either honestly, but was trying to fill in the gaps I saw in the OP party and his wishes. I thought of a strait witch, but felt the arcanist approach got him the spells he wanted, with the versatility to not be locked into having to choose the perfect spells for the day...plus later some sweet exploits...


The human alternate favored class bonus for clerics is 'Add a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders.' which sounds perfect when your campaign's about fighting demons.

A divine paragon cleric of Irori with the full knowledge domain and just the spells from the strength domain should be good. The free divine obedience feat gives you a +4 on all knowledge checks - you'll need some intelligence and maybe the cunning feat to get the skill points to use that fully. They can prepare haste as a 4th level spell, and with the first boon from divine obedience at 5th level you might pick haste as a spell-like ability anyway if that's not soon enough.

Silver Crusade

IMHO a Shaman is a good choice in this situation, due to the wide variety of spells that they have access to.

Dastis wrote:
Optimising I would go into an arcane class, mostly for haste.

A Speaker for the Past Shaman can get haste through the Speed or Slow Time Revelation. A Human or Half-Orc has access to Bless, Haste, Heroism, Prayer and Blessing of Fervor.


RumpinRufus wrote:
This entirely depends on your play style. If you are only concerned about maximizing your DPR, then yes, skill feats are generally suboptimal. But if you are more interested in story and roleplay, they can be indispensable.

Even if you're in a roleplay heavy game with little combat, this is still a terrible feat choice for a Wizard-type character.

Spoiler:

As a 20-int character with class skill in every type of knowledge, it's pretty easy to get high numbers in every knowledge skill. Moreover, knowledge skills are typically used in situations where you can take 10. This means you don't actually need a particularly high value to hit these checks consistently, and will probably be able to make every check that comes your way even with non-maxed ranks. A bonus on checks that you already succeed nearly 100% of the time is a very bad deal even if you're making those checks very often.

For profession skills... how often does that come up? Sailor comes up fairly often in nautical campaigns, but other than that it's pretty rare that they'll be relevant and are often just used as substitutes for knowledge checks you don't have.

If you want feats that give you more out-of-combat options, there are great options. Additional Traits is a great choice, since there are a lot of great traits that can help you with skills. Even at worst this can be used to grab class skill in up to two skills you normally can't utilize effectively. This is much more useful than Breadth of Knowledge, since you can pick skills that you normally wouldn't have much success with.

Jason Wedel wrote:
I thought of a strait witch, but felt the arcanist approach got him the spells he wanted

Unlettered Arcanist doesn't get access to normal arcanist spells. He only gets Witch spells, and even then doesn't get patron spells.


I understand that, and should have presented what I was saying better

I feel that the arcanist ability to select spells known, and the exploits would make a better character (even though with the School Savant have to wait a bit for it to come online), while the list of things he was looking to do would be better served with the witch spell list. I don't think I would ever play a unlettered arcanist personally.


Listening all your advice, seems that the best choices for what i need are: Arcane (Wizard, Arcanist, Witch) Divine (Shaman, Cleric).
For that i have read, Witch give you most of the things the party need, Knowledges, support and debuff spells.
Arcanist give all Knowledges, good spells (maybe less support or life saver spells), few prepared spells per day but great, very great exploits.
Wizard it's just like the Arcanist but more versatile with prepared spells, but missing exploits.
Cleric poor Knowledges, great spell list for support and awasome Evangelist + Sacred summoner trick.
Shaman dunno, got not much time to focus on it yet.
So i think that the choice will be between arcanist or wizard, wich one would better fit the role?


I think arcanist and wizard fill the same niche. It just depends at that point on which one sounds more fun to you. If you are an impatient person then wizard will be faster to get you your high level spells. But some of the arcanist exploits (I'm looking at you, Dimensional Slide) are just do cool.


Let me help you with the shaman.

The Shaman offers a lot of what you want from a support caster removal spells, restoration, protection, resist energy etc. It comes with some baked in control that the cleric lacks like stinking cloud, wall of thorns, spike stone. The list has blasting from level one on which the cleric does not have.

You also get access to a no save -4 to saves via evil eye that goes a long way toward making your spells stick. With other backups like misfortune, and slumber.

Where the extra power comes from is Human FCB to grab spells off the cleric list. No you can align weapons, purge invisibility or any other tactic you want to steal.

But what about haste or dimension door? You can use your wandering spirit to grab the lore spirit and take spells of the wizard list.

For your main spirit you may want to consider ancestor for wis instead of int to int checks, heroism to further boost those checks and Spiritual Guardian for full bab attack ghost. If you want to further boost your skill support remember you have a familiar. You can make it a sage/figment for a second character to make checks.

14 int (2) + skill (1) + class (4) + familiar (2 or more with high int or items)

Nine skill points per level as your base, wis to int checks, high perception, and sense motive, and heroism should make you a formidably skill focused character.


So Arcanist over Witch too?
If is yes can tuo tell the most optimized Arcanist for my role?
Got many ideas in this thread but i don't know wich is better


Etriel wrote:
So i think that the choice will be between arcanist or wizard, wich one would better fit the role?

They're both exceedingly good classes; general rule of thumb is that if you find yourself unable to decide between Wizard and Arcanist, then you'll be happy with either.

Wizard will advance to higher spell levels sooner than an Arcanist. It's not so much a matter of patience, since the Wizard pulls ahead again every time the Arcanist catches up. It's not until 18th level that the Arcanist catches up for real, which is outside of the scope of most campaigns. Thanks to specialist spell slots, Wizards also have more spells per day than an Arcanist.

On the other hand, Arcanists have exploits, which (as others have mentioned) are extremely good and really help close in the distance. You can always go with the Exploiter Wizard archetype if you want exploits on a wizard, but that does give up a lot and doesn't get the Arcanist's unique middle-ground between prepared and spontaneous casting.


Wow the Shaman seem FANTASTIC.
can you tell me where to find how to and cleric and wizard spells to my list?
Never played before the Shaman and the build look little tricky atm.


The spell level delay on spontaneous casters I have always found to be a minor thing in actual play. Assuming you spend about the same amount of time each level you end up only being behind around 1/2 the time. The only time its really irksome is levels 1 to 4 which I typically don't count given how casters only come into their own at lv5. I my experiance the much lower number of spellslots is the worst tradoff from being an arcanist over a wizard. That said I do prefer arcanists largely in part due to their fantastic exploits


RE: Arcanist spell progression

While it is true that the arcanist is one level behind on getting spell levels (Level 4 for 2nd level spells instead of 3) they do get more spells. They can also take School savant (at the cost of 3 exploits) to be an EVEN better school wizard. They get the advantage of opposing school spells costing 2 spells "known" instead of "used"


Etriel wrote:

Wow the Shaman seem FANTASTIC.

can you tell me where to find how to and cleric and wizard spells to my list?
Never played before the Shaman and the build look little tricky atm.

It's a tough build. You do have hexes if you goof your spell prep which you don't with other builds. I you look up the human favored class bonus for shamans you will find this.

Quote:
Shaman: Add one spell from the cleric spell list that isn’t on the shaman spell list to the list of spells the shaman knows. This spell must be at least 1 level below the highest spell level the shaman can cast.

Humans, Half Elves and Half orcs can take it.

If you're looking for something less daunting, sorcerers and arcanists are much easier to play. Exploiter wizards are crazy powerful and really fun. Overall, they are all powerful and fun. I would say pick what seems enjoyable to you, take a high casting stat, read some spell guides and you should be fine.


Now i'm sure i will make an Arcanist or a Shaman. I just need some time to read good the Shaman


Btw people you are really great and a true pathfinder wiki =)


Jason Wedel wrote:
While it is true that the arcanist is one level behind on getting spell levels (Level 4 for 2nd level spells instead of 3) they do get more spells.

This is not true. A 4th level Wizard with 20 intelligence and a specialty school will have a total of four 2nd level slots and six 1st level slots, while the Arcanist will have three 2nd level slots and six 1st level slots, so the Wizard actually has one additional spell. The gap actually widens slightly as you gain in levels. By 20th, the Wizard is ahead of the Arcanist by one slot at every level. And, of course, at odd-numbered levels the Wizard is decisively ahead due to having slots at a spell level the Arcanist does not have access to yet.

If Etriel has decided on Arcanist, though, it's a great choice.


I'm sorry, I feel that I have not been explaining what I am trying to say very well recently (Not an excuse but some serious personal problems recently are making me preoccupied).

You are using schooled wizard vs a universalist Arcanist, I was comparing a Universalist wizard v. a universalist Arcanist, as a second comparison I was comparing a School Savant Arcanist v. A Specialist wizard.

In all fairness I should also include a comparison of an Exploiter Wizard v. Arcanist...but feel the Wizard would just loose terribly on that one (But have not done the legwork on it)

Rereading what I have said/what you have said I can definatly se3e how mine was misinterpreted.


And after Rereading the School Savant archtype I realize I had made a mistake. You are right, the school wizard can cast more spells (I had misrememberer/Misread where they get their extra spell)


Jason Wedel wrote:
I was comparing a Universalist wizard v. a universalist Arcanist

The universalist school is a highly suboptimal choice for Wizards, so I don't feel it's appropriate to compare against it. A serious comparison of spell slot totals should always be against specialist Wizards. The only exception I'll grant on non-specialist Wizards is the Exploiter, so let's move on to that.

Jason Wedel wrote:
In all fairness I should also include a comparison of an Exploiter Wizard v. Arcanist...but feel the Wizard would just loose terribly on that one (But have not done the legwork on it)

This is a much more apt comparison. The Exploiter Wizard has more spell slots at odd levels (thanks to having access to higher level slots), while the Arcanist has more spell slots at even levels, so total spell slots isn't cut and dry in this example. The Exploiter get fewer Exploits than the Arcanist, but does get bonus feats and can always pick up the Extra Exploit feat to close the gap.

So it really comes down to personal preference as to which casting type you want. Some people prefer Wizard casting and the ability to prepare a large number of different spells, some people prefer Arcanist casting and the ability to spontaneously cast among a small number of select spells. The Arcanist has Quick Study and the Wizard has his own equivalent in the Fast Study discovery (Exploiter can take both, if he really wants to go overkill on the Schroedinger's Wizard thing).

I sort of gather that you prefer Arcanist spellcasting, which is (IMO) the number one reason to go with the Arcanist over the Wizard. Both styles have their upsides and downsides, and it really depends on your own preference there.


I do prefer Arcanist over wizards, before arcanists I had to many bad experiences not having chosen correctly for my spells...So declaring my Bias

I will say that I do also value variety over focused characters, there fore I do value universalists on par with specialists...


Jason Wedel wrote:
I will say that I do also value variety over focused characters, there fore I do value universalists on par with specialists...

Specialists can prepare more spells per day, and thus are able to prepare a greater variety of spells than the universalist. That's what really kills universalists. They aren't even better at what they're supposed to be better at.


Etriel wrote:

Wow the Shaman seem FANTASTIC.

can you tell me where to find how to and cleric and wizard spells to my list?
Never played before the Shaman and the build look little tricky atm.

Shaman is v.strong but has some serious probs as well

1) You are tied in to a small no of classes to get the FCB

2) By taking the FCB you lose out on 1hp/1 skill point

3) The spells you can get have to be 1 level below

4) Basic Shaman spell list is pretty poor and the number of holes difficult to fill with the FCB

5) The entire class is built on the premise that you WILL take Arcane Enlightenment

6) You are very MAD.... your physical stats wont be great

7) Your opportunities for PRC are v.limited due to PRC rules on abilities

If your party is small, its a very useful caster to have as its very much a 'Jack of all trades'

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