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Race sizes in Alien Archive a bit extreme?


Starfinder General Discussion


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Many of the new playable races in Alien Archive are Small or Large.

For the most part, this poses little to no problems, especially since Starfinder did away with many of the modifiers and bonuses that made being a different size spectacular.

Some, like the sarcesian, however, are really, REALLY, REALLY ridiculously tall though! Even though they are described as slender, a sarcesian adult ends up being anywhere between 10 and 15 feet tall.

Just to put that into perspective, I created a quick diagram with approximate comparisons between a 6-foot lashunta and both a 10-foot and 15-foot tall sarcesian.

The sarcian's rifle alone is larger than the whole 6-foot tall lashunta! The sarcesian's "slender" legs are as wide around as the lashunta's entire torso!

How on earth are these two characters supposed to interact in any meaningful way within the same party? One of a thousand possible problems, is the party trying to enter a ship designed for Medium characters. It likely won't even come close to being able to fit a sarcesian! It would literally have to crawl through the door, and still risks getting stuck.

Anyways, just what was on my mind at this late hour.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Nice site you´re using there for hosting pictures.

Most likely most people will handle this over medium and large and then search for something like squeezing.
It´s a very interesting challenge though. Might add some very fun aspects to rp.


That does seem quite... problematic, RD. That is, unless large races are particularly ubiquitous in many systems, wich'd mean most buildings and ships would be adapted to larger folk. (still, imagine what'd happen if the party tried to board a goblin junkship... yikes.)

Dark Archive

Think your scale is a little off due to the leaning back of the sarcesian. Still 10 tall is nothing new most dungeons that had to be made with either Force labor or magic will fit 10 feet high monsters if that's what uses it. so can see the argument for space stations also at least that tall. But yes the 15 foot end should be huge so maybe make it a playable race that is only 10?


I think this is a general problem with heights. Even a 2,4 meter (8feet) Vex is "Huge" if it stands next to a normal human (5-6 feet).

A nice way to experience this is via PC Game Engeines (e.g. Unreal). Just create a normal 3rd person level (theres a pre-generated one) and scale one of the persones to 1,8 m and the other to 2,4m.
It's really an eye opener. :)


Do larger creatures still get reach? cause I feel being 15 feet tall deserves reach.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Do larger creatures still get reach? cause I feel being 15 feet tall deserves reach.

In first contact they did, so I assume that's still a thing


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Considering how many large species there are and the fact that many are from the pact worlds, it seems reasonable that many pact worlds ships and buildings will be designed to accommodate larger creatures. The challenge will be on remote worlds where they haven't seen large creatures but in my opinion that just makes for an interesting RP and mechanical challenge.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

dot


Most other races are about as large to Ysoki as the Sarcesian is to those other races. Ysoki still manage to work with humans etc.


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avr wrote:
Most other races are about as large to Ysoki as the Sarcesian is to those other races. Ysoki still manage to work with humans etc.

Yes, but it's less of a problem to have EXTRA room than it is to not have ENOUGH room.

My initial impression is that 'playable' races is a bit of a misnomer for some of the races from Alien Archive. Technically, there are RULES for them, yes, but whether they are playable in any given campaign seems really dependent on a lot of variables.

Races like the Sarcesian will be playable IF you have spaces and equipment that will accommodate them in your particular adventure. It's entirely possible that your party (or your enemy) will move through areas and spaces where you will only be able to move with difficulty, if at all. It's also entirely possible that much or most of the equipment you find may be unusable, or usable with difficulty.

Entirely aquatic races MAY be playable, presuming they stay in their armor with life support systems, but they might also be too dependent upon those suits or recharging for those suits to function in a particular adventure. If all you can afford is level 1 armor, then you have a one day adventuring limit, away from a recharger.

You also have races like the Reptoids [sp?] and the Greys are playable, technically, but if a GM has an adventure where the existence or motivation of these aliens is a major part of the story, they aren't terribly playable in that adventure. How do you establish a strange, mysterious group of aliens with a shadowy conspiracy and nebulous aims if they are also a playable race?

"Who are these gray aliens and what do they want?"

"I dunno. Why not ask Bob? He's one of them."


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What about the disguise skill? Per p.140ish of the CRB, I can disguise myself as a creature within one size category of me. That's if I do NOT have access to special tech or magic.
So...how does this work as me a Lashunta, disguising myself as a Sarcesian?
For that matter, how am I disguising myself as an Ysoki/Goblin for that matter? Do all masters of disguise take classes in Advanced Creative Body-Folding 303?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
The_Defiant wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Do larger creatures still get reach? cause I feel being 15 feet tall deserves reach.
In first contact they did, so I assume that's still a thing

if I recall correctly, every large race has reach.

Due to system-wide combat mechanic changes, this may not be as valuable as it was in Pathfinder, mind you.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Havin Frost wrote:

What about the disguise skill? Per p.140ish of the CRB, I can disguise myself as a creature within one size category of me. That's if I do NOT have access to special tech or magic.

So...how does this work as me a Lashunta, disguising myself as a Sarcesian?
For that matter, how am I disguising myself as an Ysoki/Goblin for that matter? Do all masters of disguise take classes in Advanced Creative Body-Folding 303?

I'm of the very strong opinion that the disguise kit (a necessity, unless you have a holoskin, disguise self, or a serum of appearance change*, or similar) has both magic and tech in it to allow you effectively semi-permanent disguises and effectively physical alterations (with some minor illusion/hologram along side to supplement).

That said, how to make it work?

- a pair of small stilts (up to ~1.75 ft. high)
- a prosthetic head (probably literally a head and shoulders above you; increasing height by ~1.75 ft.)
- a grip-extension-device (like the toys)

... so that's ~3 feet taller than normal. That'll let you be a medium size. Hm... just a tad short.

So instead:

- a pair of stilts that makes the "foot" as the joint part of the "knee" for a sarcesian (not unlike the automatic joints for modern prosthesis) and probably have braces that help keep the leg from (accidentally) bending at the lashunta knee (not unlike a modern cast); the lower portion are roughly 3 ft. tall stilts (probably 2.5)

- a thick "puffed" collar/armor to hide/disguise the human head

- a prosthetic neck-head on top of that (about .75 feet tall)

- arm extensions probably brace the elbows, like the legs

This allows a medium-sized creature to be a 10-foot (or more) taller creature - no advanced "tech" (electronics/biotics/etc.) or similar needed beyond the initial building of the pieces (though the prosthesis might be a weak spot), and no magic or body-folding, either. As to the material and how all that "metal" fits into a portable kit, I don't think it's metal - in fact, I suspect various forms of compressed semi-solid fluids that become "hard" gasses to inflate various pieces (like a bouncy castle, only more firm; most creatures have similar systems in place, biologically, to assist in reproduction, so it's not that far-fetched; also, it's likely constructed to react to certain pressures and substances and is able to be collected and reused). Anyway, that's pretty much it: compressed gas inflating a compressed set of prosthesis, which have simple controls inside.

I got nothin' for becoming smaller, like an ysoki, though. Outside of flesh-folding, that is. XD

* This is somewhat debatable, given the wording.


Butch A. wrote:
avr wrote:
Most other races are about as large to Ysoki as the Sarcesian is to those other races. Ysoki still manage to work with humans etc.

Yes, but it's less of a problem to have EXTRA room than it is to not have ENOUGH room.

My initial impression is that 'playable' races is a bit of a misnomer for some of the races from Alien Archive. Technically, there are RULES for them, yes, but whether they are playable in any given campaign seems really dependent on a lot of variables.

Races like the Sarcesian will be playable IF you have spaces and equipment that will accommodate them in your particular adventure. It's entirely possible that your party (or your enemy) will move through areas and spaces where you will only be able to move with difficulty, if at all. It's also entirely possible that much or most of the equipment you find may be unusable, or usable with difficulty.

Entirely aquatic races MAY be playable, presuming they stay in their armor with life support systems, but they might also be too dependent upon those suits or recharging for those suits to function in a particular adventure. If all you can afford is level 1 armor, then you have a one day adventuring limit, away from a recharger.

You also have races like the Reptoids [sp?] and the Greys are playable, technically, but if a GM has an adventure where the existence or motivation of these aliens is a major part of the story, they aren't terribly playable in that adventure. How do you establish a strange, mysterious group of aliens with a shadowy conspiracy and nebulous aims if they are also a playable race?

"Who are these gray aliens and what do they want?"

"I dunno. Why not ask Bob? He's one of them."

If you have something like a sarcesian in your group it should be pretty easy to setup one of your ships cargo holds to accommodate living quarters/bridge station for them. Some parts of the engineering spaces are going to not be very accessible to them but a group could get them setup on their ship fine. Also there already is a mod for a module that supports alternate atmosphere types to accommodate passengers with specialty needs. And yes with some of those it is going to be with GM approval just like drow or druegar in pathfinder.


I wonder if you can disguise your power armour as another race.

For that matter, what do they put in a ysoki jarlslayer that gets taken out for sarcesian models?


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
The_Defiant wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Do larger creatures still get reach? cause I feel being 15 feet tall deserves reach.
In first contact they did, so I assume that's still a thing

if I recall correctly, every large race has reach.

Due to system-wide combat mechanic changes, this may not be as valuable as it was in Pathfinder, mind you.

Not always. The Urog (a Large magical beast) has a reach of only 5 feet.

And reach may be even more valuable in Starfinder than in Pathfinder given that reach weapons no longer deny you the ability to attack adjacent foes.


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David knott 242 wrote:

And reach may be even more valuable in Starfinder than in Pathfinder given that reach weapons no longer deny you the ability to attack adjacent foes.

As far as I know there's nothing printed in the entire game that allows someone to make more than one AoO in a round, so reach is nice for making that one AoO anywhere in a large area, but even with 30 foot reach you couldn't charge into a crowd of casters and swat them all for trying to fry you.


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McAllister wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

And reach may be even more valuable in Starfinder than in Pathfinder given that reach weapons no longer deny you the ability to attack adjacent foes.

As far as I know there's nothing printed in the entire game that allows someone to make more than one AoO in a round, so reach is nice for making that one AoO anywhere in a large area, but even with 30 foot reach you couldn't charge into a crowd of casters and swat them all for trying to fry you.

Yes it is not OP but it does increase your chances of getting your AoO more frequently which is really nice.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Good point. Combat Reflexes is not a core feat in Starfinder, so that would limit the chance to use extended reach to make more attacks of opportunity.

Scarab Sages

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Reach also does not mean much when you use a sniper rifle :)

Liberty's Edge

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Butch A. wrote:


You also have races like the Reptoids [sp?] and the Greys are playable, technically, but if a GM has an adventure where the existence or motivation of these aliens is a major part of the story, they aren't terribly playable in that adventure. How do you establish a strange, mysterious group of aliens with a shadowy conspiracy and nebulous aims if they are also a playable race?

"Who are these gray aliens and what do they want?"

"I dunno. Why not ask Bob? He's one of them."

Because everyone from a species is the same and part of the same conspiracies or politics...

“Who are these Charlotte protesters and what do they want?”

“I dunno. Why not ask Oprah? She’s one of them.”

Or to take it back 70+ years...

“Who are these guys in black uniforms wearing swastikas and what do they want?”

“I dunno. Why not ask the Rabbi? He’s a human too.”

The argument that being the same species causes that difficulty is about as obnoxious as the examples here. You’d need evidence that they are literally “one of them” before this could come close to being an issue.


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Except that in those examples, they totally could give you an answer.

A decently informed Rabbi in the 1940s could easily describe the Nazis and their agenda.

Sure, one Grey might not be part of the conspiracy, but they'd likely be more informed than someone of another species, mainly just due to cultural proximity to the group.


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kaid wrote:
McAllister wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

And reach may be even more valuable in Starfinder than in Pathfinder given that reach weapons no longer deny you the ability to attack adjacent foes.

As far as I know there's nothing printed in the entire game that allows someone to make more than one AoO in a round, so reach is nice for making that one AoO anywhere in a large area, but even with 30 foot reach you couldn't charge into a crowd of casters and swat them all for trying to fry you.
Yes it is not OP but it does increase your chances of getting your AoO more frequently which is really nice.

Also, taking a guarded step away from you no longer makes them safe. That might be quite relevant.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
The_Defiant wrote:
kaid wrote:
McAllister wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

And reach may be even more valuable in Starfinder than in Pathfinder given that reach weapons no longer deny you the ability to attack adjacent foes.

As far as I know there's nothing printed in the entire game that allows someone to make more than one AoO in a round, so reach is nice for making that one AoO anywhere in a large area, but even with 30 foot reach you couldn't charge into a crowd of casters and swat them all for trying to fry you.
Yes it is not OP but it does increase your chances of getting your AoO more frequently which is really nice.
Also, taking a guarded step away from you no longer makes them safe. That might be quite relevant.

This also makes the Mobility feat more worthwhile to get out of reach


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Butch A. wrote:
Yes, but it's less of a problem to have EXTRA room than it is to not have ENOUGH room.

However when you wedge yourself between two pipes and you still can only get your fingertips on a valve handle it IS a problem.


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Freedom Snake wrote:
Butch A. wrote:


You also have races like the Reptoids [sp?] and the Greys are playable, technically, but if a GM has an adventure where the existence or motivation of these aliens is a major part of the story, they aren't terribly playable in that adventure. How do you establish a strange, mysterious group of aliens with a shadowy conspiracy and nebulous aims if they are also a playable race?

"Who are these gray aliens and what do they want?"

"I dunno. Why not ask Bob? He's one of them."

Because everyone from a species is the same and part of the same conspiracies or politics...

“Who are these Charlotte protesters and what do they want?”

“I dunno. Why not ask Oprah? She’s one of them.”

Or to take it back 70+ years...

“Who are these guys in black uniforms wearing swastikas and what do they want?”

“I dunno. Why not ask the Rabbi? He’s a human too.”

The argument that being the same species causes that difficulty is about as obnoxious as the examples here. You’d need evidence that they are literally “one of them” before this could come close to being an issue.

Yeah, but the Grays are presented in the Core Rulebook this way:

Escape-pod survivors of three different VisTour space liner tragedies spread over four decades (the Gossamer, Ostog, and Stardream II) did report mysterious bulb-headed gray aliens manifesting moments before disaster struck—descriptions that matched creatures said to have been present at momentous Pact Worlds events tracing back before the Gap.

So, the SPECIES is mysterious. A mysterious species said to have been present at momentous events back before the Gap.

Bigfoot can't be a mystery cryptid if you personally know multiple sasquatches. The Loch Ness monster can't be a mysterious lake monster if several are kept in petting zoos. If grays can be members of adventuring parties and members of the Starfinder society, then their species can't be these 'mysterious aliens' described in all sorts of reports. Their species might be up to something mysterious, but they aren't a mysterious alien species.

Your team-mate, Bob, might not know what the grays on the Ostog were up to, or what the Grays were up to before the Gap, but he damn well better know what the hell he is--unless that's the entire point of his character. Is every PC Gray an outcast ignorant of gray alien society?

It may well be obnoxious to assume that all humans know what other humans are up to, but if multiple groups of mercenaries, adventurers, and explorers all have a leprechaun in their organization, leprechauns aren't mysterious fae creatures spoken of in rumor and legend any more.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Design Lead

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McAllister wrote:
As far as I know there's nothing printed in the entire game that allows someone to make more than one AoO in a round

Correct.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Butch A. wrote:
It may well be obnoxious to assume that all humans know what other humans are up to, but if multiple groups of mercenaries, adventurers, and explorers all have a leprechaun in their organization, leprechauns aren't mysterious fae creatures spoken of in rumor and legend any more.

Sure they are - you're just one of them.

PC races can be totally weird and exotic, and it's well possible that people might not know who or what that guy over there is. Maybe he knows, or maybe not, himself.

You might still be mysterious and weird and keep secrets to yourself, even if you don't know your whole race's thing - after all, in a world where no one looks like you, perhaps you adopt cultural mannerisms and traits just be closer to your own people, in whatever little ways you can be. Even if, later on, you discover you don't like them very much, there can be comfort in being kind of like them.

Being part of an adventuring group doesn't make you "common" or even "not mysterious."

NPC: "Uh. There's a guy over there, you called 'Bob.' It, uh... it's covered with scales with big teeth and claws and has wings. Is it a demon? Half-demon? Half-dragon? Actual dragon?"

Fellow PC: "No, he's a kobold with a few racial feats."

{later, when they're alone}

Bob: "Guys. You're killin' my mystique. Dang it, I'm so alone."
-----------
OR
-----------
NPC: "Uh. There's a guy over there, you called 'Bob.' It, uh... it's covered with scales with big teeth and claws and has wings. Is it a demon? Half-demon? Half-dragon? Actual dragon?"

Bob: "'It' can speak for 'itself'... meat. And can hear you - quite well. You seek to know me? You seek to assign me to your mundane, banal categories? You dare to presume... meat... that you can find it within you to understand what I am?"

{later, when they're alone}

Bob: "I'm so alone, you guys, I, like, have no idea what I really am!!"
-----------
OR
-----------
NPC: "Uh. There's a guy over there, you called 'Bob.' It, uh... it's covered with scales with big teeth and claws and has wings. Is it a demon? Half-demon? Half-dragon? Actual dragon?"

Fellow PC: "He can speak for himself... guy. And can hear you - quite well. You seek to know him? You seek to assign him to your mundane, banal categories? You dare to presume that you - you - can find it within you to understand what something like he really is, with just a minor label? Gods of the dark, even we don't fully understand what's been going on, there."

{later, when they're alone}

Bob: "You guys are the best~! I'm less alone, and I, like, know who I really am: your friend!!"
-----------
OR
-----------

... any number of other possibilities. Just play it like your party wants to.

Be mysterious. Be banal. Be what you want.

You can do the same thing with leprechauns, ("Can't rightly say for sure. Seems like maybe a half-gnome or half-Halfing, or something, but... sure does have is own weird ways, you know?") or Gray ("Look, I ain't never seen anything like him that I know of, but I've seen, like, a hundred "never before seen" species this week alone, and they all want to eat, so, if you don't mind, I've gotta go cook.") or anything else you can come up with.

EDIT: Man, Owen. Always ninja'n just before a guy gets his post on! Anyway, I added a bit at the end for hopeful clarity/expansion.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh!

I wanted to mention that, for the record, it could go the other way, if you want!

---

As an example:

Quote:

NPC: "Uh. There's a guy over there, you called 'Bob.' It, uh... it's covered with scales with big teeth and claws and has wings. Is it a demon? Half-demon? Half-dragon? Actual dragon?"

Bob: "First, I can hear you. Whispering is a thing, you know, Second, no, I'm a kobold with a few racial feats."

{later, when they're alone}

Bob: "Dang it, I'm so alone."

That was an example I'd intended to show off, but I'd forgotten.

Blagh. Siiiiiiiiiiick.


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Ravingdork wrote:

Many of the new playable races in Alien Archive are Small or Large.

For the most part, this poses little to no problems, especially since Starfinder did away with many of the modifiers and bonuses that made being a different size spectacular.

Some, like the sarcesian, however, are really, REALLY, REALLY ridiculously tall though!

To help you and others out, I found this decent character size chart calculator thing.


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Butch A. wrote:
avr wrote:
Most other races are about as large to Ysoki as the Sarcesian is to those other races. Ysoki still manage to work with humans etc.

Yes, but it's less of a problem to have EXTRA room than it is to not have ENOUGH room.

I was thinking that there must be areas designed for Ysoki. Possibly a lot of them, they're one of the main races and unlike humans their homeworld hasn't vanished under mysterious circumstances so they're probably numerous.


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avr wrote:
Butch A. wrote:
avr wrote:
Most other races are about as large to Ysoki as the Sarcesian is to those other races. Ysoki still manage to work with humans etc.

Yes, but it's less of a problem to have EXTRA room than it is to not have ENOUGH room.

I was thinking that there must be areas designed for Ysoki. Possibly a lot of them, they're one of the main races and unlike humans their homeworld hasn't vanished under mysterious circumstances so they're probably numerous.

... Fair point. A human might be able to fit themselves into a yoksi designed space, but put a large-sized creature in that position, and they're just hopelessly out-scaled.


avr wrote:
Butch A. wrote:
avr wrote:
Most other races are about as large to Ysoki as the Sarcesian is to those other races. Ysoki still manage to work with humans etc.

Yes, but it's less of a problem to have EXTRA room than it is to not have ENOUGH room.

I was thinking that there must be areas designed for Ysoki. Possibly a lot of them, they're one of the main races and unlike humans their homeworld hasn't vanished under mysterious circumstances so they're probably numerous.

They are also very rodent like and we all know what that means


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They like cheese?


Gamerskum wrote:

They like cheese?

Most rodents can fit through a hole as long as it's big enough for their head.

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