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Invisibility and turn sequence


Rules Questions


I was wondering If I could have my wand wielding familiar cast invisibility on me in this sequence:

My turn: I cast a spell (using my standard action)
Improved familiar: he makes me invisible via wand.
My turn: I now use my move action to move 30 ft, end turn.

So can I basically cast a spell, then let my improved familiar act, then after he's done I use my move action?


No. You and your familiar are two separate creatures, and the familiar can not act when it is not his turn.

So on your turn he can't take any actions.


By RAW, I don't think so. The familiar has his own initiative roll and his own turn, and cannot use a standard action during your turn. You cannot also delay half of your turn, nor ready an action to move with just a move action.

That being said, many GMs skip the separate initiative roll for the familiar and make them act on the owner's turn (like mounts do). But that's just a common houserule, so the details are up to the GM.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Well, if your familiar is going before you, its action could be to ready an action to use the wand that it is carrying to make you invisible, with the trigger being you completing the casting of a spell.

If your initiative came before the familiar's, you could delay your turn until after that of your familiar so that the familiar can ready its action.

The key point to making the sequence work is that the familiar has to interrupt your turn with a readied action.


David knott 242 wrote:

Well, if your familiar is going before you, its action could be to ready an action to use the wand that it is carrying to make you invisible, with the trigger being you completing the casting of a spell.

If your initiative came before the familiar's, you could delay your turn until after that of your familiar so that the familiar can ready its action.

The key point to making the sequence work is that the familiar has to interrupt your turn with a readied action.

That is true. I haven't thought about that.


Yes my GM makes my familiar act together with me


So if I had my familiar ready his action could I cast and then have him use invisibility on me and then continue with my move action?


David knott 242 wrote:

Well, if your familiar is going before you, its action could be to ready an action to use the wand that it is carrying to make you invisible, with the trigger being you completing the casting of a spell.

If your initiative came before the familiar's, you could delay your turn until after that of your familiar so that the familiar can ready its action.

The key point to making the sequence work is that the familiar has to interrupt your turn with a readied action.

I was thinking same thing, but I'd go with stated trigger being when Caster(Master) moved rather than completing a spell, though I suppose either statement works


Your familiar will want to cast the invisibility before the caster moves, so you are not giving clues to what direction the caster is moving.

You do realize that at this point your familiar just becomes a high priority target. They may not know what square the caster is ending up, but they will be able to tell where the familiar is ending up, because it cannot move away from the casting manifestations until the next round.


David knott 242 wrote:

Well, if your familiar is going before you, its action could be to ready an action to use the wand that it is carrying to make you invisible, with the trigger being you completing the casting of a spell.

If your initiative came before the familiar's, you could delay your turn until after that of your familiar so that the familiar can ready its action.

The key point to making the sequence work is that the familiar has to interrupt your turn with a readied action.

Yes, this work.

As a reminder to the OP this only works if the familiar beats the caster for initiative or unless the caster delays so the familiar can ready his action first.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Daw wrote:

Your familiar will want to cast the invisibility before the caster moves, so you are not giving clues to what direction the caster is moving.

You do realize that at this point your familiar just becomes a high priority target. They may not know what square the caster is ending up, but they will be able to tell where the familiar is ending up, because it cannot move away from the casting manifestations until the next round.

When using the ready action it can take a 5' step.

That can be useful if the familiar is already invisible or near total cover.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Daw wrote:

Your familiar will want to cast the invisibility before the caster moves, so you are not giving clues to what direction the caster is moving.

You do realize that at this point your familiar just becomes a high priority target. They may not know what square the caster is ending up, but they will be able to tell where the familiar is ending up, because it cannot move away from the casting manifestations until the next round.

When using the ready action it can take a 5' step.

That can be useful if the familiar is already invisible or near total cover.

True, if it didn't already move before readying the action.


Daw wrote:

Your familiar will want to cast the invisibility before the caster moves, so you are not giving clues to what direction the caster is moving.

You do realize that at this point your familiar just becomes a high priority target. They may not know what square the caster is ending up, but they will be able to tell where the familiar is ending up, because it cannot move away from the casting manifestations until the next round.

I don't believe items such as wands or potions have manifestations so that won't be a problem


Daw wrote:

Your familiar will want to cast the invisibility before the caster moves, so you are not giving clues to what direction the caster is moving.

You do realize that at this point your familiar just becomes a high priority target. They may not know what square the caster is ending up, but they will be able to tell where the familiar is ending up, because it cannot move away from the casting manifestations until the next round.

Why is the familiar invisible? He is using a wand to cast it on the caster.


Wraithstrike, The familiar can remain invisible because casting "invisible" is not an attack and does not break invisibility. If it wasn't starting out as invisible, that is just poor planning.

Choi, I disagree with your your belief on wands (and any spell completion items) having no casting manifestation, the spell is being cast, why wouldn't there be manifestations? If you just hate the idea of manifestations you should just say that.

Megistone, The casting and the manifestations therefrom occur AFTER the action is readied, and, therefore after your posited 5 ft step. Since the casting is not done during the familiar's turn, the familiar cannot move away from it.


Daw wrote:

Wraithstrike, The familiar can remain invisible because casting "invisible" is not an attack and does not break invisibility. If it wasn't starting out as invisible, that is just poor planning.

Choi, I disagree with your your belief on wands (and any spell completion items) having no casting manifestation, the spell is being cast, why wouldn't there be manifestations? If you just hate the idea of manifestations you should just say that.

Megistone, The casting and the manifestations therefrom occur AFTER the action is readied, and, therefore after your posited 5 ft step. Since the casting is not done during the familiar's turn, the familiar cannot move away from it.

I am asking why is the assumption being made that the familiar was ever invisible since the OP only mentioned making the caster invisible. I understand that the familiar can potentially use the wand on itself.


Wraithstrike,
I agree that the OP did not specify the familiar was invisible.
If the familiar isn't invisible, it is, as the Pythonic Parrot, deceased, defunct, an ex-familiar. I assumed it would be, because I cannot really see why you wouldn't go for the whole cheese.


My improved familiar is a faerie dragon and he could I guess activate Greater Invisibility on himself 3X a day which I guess is what I would do for difficult fights only. Previously I did not think about this. Now this becomes a very safe play. Basically I act first cast my spell, then familiar acts immediately after my spell by making me invisible, then I use my move action to relocate myself on the battlefield. Then finally my familiar uses his move action to also relocate. Is that right?


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Atalius wrote:
My improved familiar is a faerie dragon and he could I guess activate Greater Invisibility on himself 3X a day which I guess is what I would do for difficult fights only. Previously I did not think about this. Now this becomes a very safe play. Basically I act first cast my spell, then familiar acts immediately after my spell by making me invisible, then I use my move action to relocate myself on the battlefield. Then finally my familiar uses his move action to also relocate. Is that right?

No, after the familiar performs his readied action, it cannot use a move action until his next turn. It can make at most 5-foot step immediately after finishing his readied action, if he hasn't moved before. That is:

  • (Optional) Familiar uses a move action that doesn't involve actual movement.
  • Familiar readies an action to make you invisible after you cast a spell.
  • You cast a spell.
  • Familiar's readied action triggers, it makes you invisible.
  • Familiar is making a 5-foot step.
  • Your turn resumes, you move.


Can you not ready an action and delay your move action for later, after your readied action?


no, a readied action is your standard action and you can't perform any other action after it so you end your turn. Then if the trigger happens you take your standard/move/swift action that you readied (with a 5ft step allowed if you didn't move). Since your turn was over, and the readied action is only one action you can't somehow generate an extra move action from nothing to take when your readied action comes up.


Actually, the 5ft step is a miscellaneous action, not an immediate action. There is nothing that allows it to be used outside of your turn normally. If you wanted to have that uption, you would be to have the 5 foot step be your readied action, or take one of the step-up style feats to allow you to do so.
If you are using your readied action to activate the wand, then you cannot take that 5ft step because it is not your turn anymore.


There is:

Quote:

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

"As part". In the rules for 5-foot step you have also

Quote:

Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

So you can totally use a 5-foot step after a readied standard action. It's nowhere said it has to be used on your turn. As long as you are performing another action, you can add a 5-foot step to it, if other conditions are met.


Good spot, I had missed that in "readying".


Adjoint wrote:


As long as you are performing another action, you can add a 5-foot step to it, if other conditions are met.

That's not quite true. For example, you cannot take a 5' step just because you are taking an immediate action, or using the free action to speak outside of your turn. You can only take a 5' step on your turn, or when something else explicitly allows it such as readying an action, or the step up feat.


bbangerter wrote:
Adjoint wrote:


As long as you are performing another action, you can add a 5-foot step to it, if other conditions are met.
That's not quite true. For example, you cannot take a 5' step just because you are taking an immediate action, or using the free action to speak outside of your turn. You can only take a 5' step on your turn, or when something else explicitly allows it such as readying an action, or the step up feat.
Quote:
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

There is no requirement that the actions be on your turn. If you take an action, you can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after it provided that you haven't moved that round and your movement isn't hampered.


Daw wrote:

Your familiar will want to cast the invisibility before the caster moves, so you are not giving clues to what direction the caster is moving.

You do realize that at this point your familiar just becomes a high priority target. They may not know what square the caster is ending up, but they will be able to tell where the familiar is ending up, because it cannot move away from the casting manifestations until the next round.

Faerie Dragon with Greater Invisibility 3 times per day ftw


blahpers wrote:
bbangerter wrote:

There is no requirement that the actions be on your turn. If you take an action, you can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after it provided that you haven't moved that round and your movement isn't hampered.

So I can take a 5' step if I speak? Technically the rules don't even say you have to be taking an action - it just says before, during, or after your other actions in the round, so by that reading then anytime during the round that is before, during, or after my other actions - regardless of who is currently taking a turn - I can take a 5' step.

Once again, like almost every reading of the rules, context matters.

So lets take a look at the context.

Quote:


You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

Your actions during the round that this is speaking of is those actions that you take on your turn during the round.

The rules for actions in combat state:

Quote:


During one turn, there are a wide variety of actions that your character can perform, from swinging a sword to casting a spell.

The 5' step is a miscellaneous action, the rules for miscellaneous actions state:

Quote:


The following actions take a variable amount of time to accomplish or otherwise work differently than other actions.

So unless the miscellaneous action of 5' step specifically calls out that it can be taken even when it is not your turn, like immediate actions do, and like speaking does, then no, you cannot take a 5' step when it is not your turn - unless of course a specific rule like readied action, or the step up feat, make an exception.

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