Perhaps a stupid question, but....
Metalic wings (aasimar racial feat) have a character level 11 prerequisite but also all of the other aasimar "angelic" feats.
Angelic flesh and blood must/can be taken early enough to be of no consequence here.
Angelic wings have a character level prerequisite of 10. Actually taking this feat at lvl 10 might be a bit of a challenge though. I'm not aware of any class that let's you take a racial/untyped bonus feat at level 10 and you only get generic feat slots at uneven levels. Usually the bonus frats are combat feats, metamagic, ...
So in the end I'd have to take the feathery wings at level 11 with a generic feat slot and then the metalic wings at level 13 by the same logic.
Or is there actually an option to get the metalic wings by level 11?
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If your campaign allows retraining it can be done. There is rogue master talent to take any feat as well.
I'm actually going this exact same thing with my aasimar paladin. My GM just agreed to let me take save the level 9 feat till level 10. I know mechanically that not how the game works but its really only hurting me because I'm down a feat for a level.
I think I'll just summarize this as
- home rule makes it easy
- very specific builds would also work
Many thanks to all :-)
because flying breaks hings?
because flying breaks things?
1) Several races have a fly speed. Nothing broken there.
2) Small Druids can ride a flying Animal Companion at level one. Medium Druids usually wait a few levels.3) Druids can also Wildshape into flying forms.
5) Air Kineticists can get permanent flight at level six.
6) Flying is only useful when you need it.
7) Weather can suck for flying,
8) Encumberance is a thing. It might impact point 2 even.
9) If you have wings it's not unrealistic to pay more for armor to accommodate them.
10) If your are fighting and fall unconscious, the fall damage could kill you.
11) Flight isn't very useful indoors most of the time.
@ Azten: Counter arguments incoming.
1. Only race I'm aware of with a fly speed that Players can utilize are Strixs. And a lot of times, they aren't chosen or they're simply banned from play due to their fly speed. A lot of other races that would have a fly speed are most likely banned for that same exact reason that Strixs are banned.
2. A lot of the flying companions aren't Medium size to start out, and if they are, their flight isn't the best, nor is their combat prowess, which is why they aren't chosen that much. Most Druids would rather go with a Domain instead of a companion if their companion doesn't have that much combat potential or utility.
3. I've played a Druid up to 8th level, and I've never chosen to Wild Shape into something flying due to the limited uses per day and for the fact that I'd basically be by myself when I do fly, which is a bad thing to do and can easily result in PC death, even if I was merely scouting.
4. (You skipped a number here. Whoops...) Permanent flight is extremely powerful, especially since at that level, flight counters aren't too commonplace, and as I've stated at point #1, races with permanent flight are usually banned at tables for this same exact reason (and I believe in PFS too). That being said, them getting flight at 6th level isn't too much better than a typical Full Spellcaster being able to learn and cast the spell as they need to, so I suppose I can agree with you here a little bit.
5. Flight can defeat the entire need of ascending towers filled with monsters to just defeat the BBEG at the top, saving a ton of other resources, or can make you practically invincible against creatures that can't fly and have no ranged options, especially in the lower levels of gameplay, which are the most common played levels in the game. While I can reference point #2 as somewhat of a counterpoint to my original argument, this is talking about flight in an objective term, such as if a BBEG uses it to his advantage, or even flight in combat, in which cast Air Kineticist would counter the argument I stated in point #2 quite easily.
6. I haven't been at a table that heavily enforced weather rules unless they made it an explicit point to for certain encounters, or with certain effects (like Wind Wall). Even if they do use those options, using a Cyclonic Ranged Weapon really only hurts themselves more than it hurts you.
7. Most characters can manage their encumberance quite easily, especially if they are small, and as such have the weight of their items cut in half. The only time I can see encumberance being a problem is in the really early levels, where only natural flight is in effect, and even then, I'd think Armor Check Penalty would be a bigger culprit than encumberance.
8. Nothing in the rules says that you have to pay for proper armor to fit wings. If anything, the only rules similar to that are fitting Full Plates that are found that aren't specifically tailored to your body, and even that doesn't discriminate against winged individuals.
9. Fair point on the fall damage. There really isn't much to counter this, though a lot of characters do build in Feather Fall as a back up in the event this stuff happens. Also, in certain cases of magical flight, the effect doesn't end and you'd just end up staying there (such as with Air Walk), meaning an ally would have to either fly to bring you back down (or go up to heal you), or make some sort of "safety net" before your spell effect would end and you'd fall safely, taking no damage.
10. This one can go either way. I've been in a bunch of 5 foot corridors, with maybe 5 or 10 foot tall ceilings, and I've been in giant barns and castles and stuff, with much larger ceilings. For this argument to make sense, you'd have to go into a bunch of tiny caverns a lot more than, say, ruins or tombs/crypts, and depending on what adventures you're running, this may (or may not) be an issue.
@ Darksol: Counter-Counter arguments incoming.
1. There are currently four. Gathlain, Strix, Syrinx, and Wyvaran.
2. So it's a balancing factor. That doesn't make it not an option. Most people want the pouncing cat from what I can tell.
3. In the reverse, my first druid often turned into either a bat(scouting) or an Air Elmental(whirlwind boosted the spells he had prepped and mobility is amazing).
4. I see I did. My bad.
5. There are spells and even mundane gear(pitons, rope, grappling hooks) that do this. Not to mention races with climb speeds(Grippli, Monkey Goblin, Vanara, Catfolk with Climber, Wererat and Werebear Skinwalker variants). Skipping towers isn't so hard as to make flying broken. Not to mention one might level up, learn useful information, or gain valuable magical items if they go inside.
6. I was listing all the limiting things about flight, and weather is one of them. Ranks in fly is a spent resource to avoid the problem, though it doesn't help with ranged attacks.
7. See 6.
8. When the rules were created there were no races with wings at level one. You can say all chainshirts have slits down the back(or whatever would be needed) to allow for wings, but that seems pretty foolish. This issue stems from using a generic term, humanoid, as a creature type and a descriptive for armor.
9. I have seen someone's character die because of falling damage from this. Not everyone thinks to keep the ring of feather fall, you know?
10. I think you skipped a number too, or mixed them up. It happens. I agree indoor flight(my point 11) can go either way, but it's still a factor.
Besides Aasimar and Stryx also Sylphs can get a fly speed at lvl 9. Costs two feats like for aasimars but materializes 1 level earlier.
So there are several options to get PCs flying on racial abilities. Saves you from buyibg a wand of fly or making your caster memorize the spell. On the other hand you need to invest 2 feats and a bunch of skillpoints, these would otherwise go into other things.
So in the end I don't find it unbalanced, it's just moving resources around...
@ Darksol: Counter-Counter arguments incoming.
1. There are currently four. Gathlain, Strix, Syrinx, and Wyvaran.
2. So it's a balancing factor. That doesn't make it not an option. Most people want the pouncing cat from what I can tell.
3. In the reverse, my first druid often turned into either a bat(scouting) or an Air Elmental(whirlwind boosted the spells he had prepped and mobility is amazing).
4. I see I did. My bad.
5. There are spells and even mundane gear(pitons, rope, grappling hooks) that do this. Not to mention races with climb speeds(Grippli, Monkey Goblin, Vanara, Catfolk with Climber, Wererat and Werebear Skinwalker variants). Skipping towers isn't so hard as to make flying broken. Not to mention one might level up, learn useful information, or gain valuable magical items if they go inside.
6. I was listing all the limiting things about flight, and weather is one of them. Ranks in fly is a spent resource to avoid the problem, though it doesn't help with ranged attacks.
7. See 6.
8. When the rules were created there were no races with wings at level one. You can say all chainshirts have slits down the back(or whatever would be needed) to allow for wings, but that seems pretty foolish. This issue stems from using a generic term, humanoid, as a creature type and a descriptive for armor.
9. I have seen someone's character die because of falling damage from this. Not everyone thinks to keep the ring of feather fall, you know?
10. I think you skipped a number too, or mixed them up. It happens. I agree indoor flight(my point 11) can go either way, but it's still a factor.
Haven't heard of two of those, and the Wyvaran's usually banned, plus their flying is so bad that it might as well shouldn't even be a feature. It's like saying Wizards in Full Plate and using a Tower Shield is a reasonable character consideration, even if valid.
To be fair, my Druid was a "jack-of-all-trades", having 18 Wisdom and 16 Strength, the Fire domain, Summon Monster feats, with a dip in UCMonk for added Wild Shape survivability. I just couldn't justify spending Wild Shape uses for flight when I would need them for combat more than anything.
Fair enough on the tower part. However, flight gives you a lot more options than if you're strapped to a wall and the enemy gets the jump on you, cutting the rope (and you fall all the way to the ground), or some other BS. At least with Flight, you can maneuver around the enemy a lot better, something that mundane items or spells may not help with.
Again, weather has had little to no impact on any game that I've played. It's ironic, really. Creatures would invest ranks in fly anyway to better maneuver with their fly speed, so it's not any more a spent resource with or without weather being a factor.
By that logic then no item can properly fit any other creature and you'd have to resize every single item you find. It's a good thing the rules are abstract, otherwise finding loot becomes just another money hassle, and people would be less likely to buy from you because they'd have to deal with resizing stuff all the time (and therefore wouldn't have the motivation to buy it).
Same here on falling death. However, spells like Fly and Air Walk (the latter of which I've seen characters go unconscious while under the effects of) include a Feather Fall safety net, or simply persist automatically in the latter case. Granted, they'd die eventually due to duration limitations, it's still just a fun fact in spell effects...
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I've never understood why they have racial feats that have "character level 10th" as a prerequisite. They're never combat feats, and the only way to get a feat at 10th level is with a class that gets a bonus feat at that level... and the bonus feat is always either a combat feat or restricted to a list that doesn't include those racial feats.
As Java Man already pointed out: A rogue can pull it. At level 10 you get your first advanced talent - which you can invest to get any feat you qualify for.
And for the class both the fly speed and the additional attacks from the follow-up feat are quite interesting, probably more than for most other classes - which can fly anyway or don't get too much out of 2 attacks with 1d4 damage dice.
An Eagle Shaman can be played as an 'Eagle Knight' that uses their flight ability and Divine Favor (Nobility Domain) as a combat buff instead of using Wild Shape. They get flight as a move action by 7 to cross with Favor, and they can get Flyby Attack as a bonus feat at 9.
Besides Aasimar and Stryx also Sylphs can get a fly speed at lvl 9. Costs two feats like for aasimars but materializes 1 level earlier.
For the slyph's feats, Airy Step has no level requirement and provides a 30-foot feather fall, and Wings of Air requires character level 9 and gives flying. For the aasimir's feats, Angelic Blood has no level requirement and has nothing to help flying and Angel Wings requires character level 10 and gives flying. Sylph are more associated with flying than aasimir, so flight at an earlier level is understandable. Putting an even-character-level requirement on a feat that is not a combat feat is less understandable.
Strix start with flying, no feats required. The cost is that they gain +2 Dexterity and -2 Charisma, one fewer +2 than most player races. A roleplaying cost is that the only known tribe of strix live in Devil's Perch in Cheliax and that tribe is hostile to humans. I waived the roleplaying background for the strix character in my Iron Gods campaign, creating a new strix tribe in the Ustalavian Shudderwood west of Numeria.
1. Only race I'm aware of with a fly speed that Players can utilize are Strixs. And a lot of times, they aren't chosen or they're simply banned from play due to their fly speed. A lot of other races that would have a fly speed are most likely banned for that same exact reason that Strixs are banned.
...
Permanent flight is extremely powerful, especially since at that level, flight counters aren't too commonplace, and as I've stated at point #1, races with permanent flight are usually banned at tables for this same exact reason (and I believe in PFS too). That being said, them getting flight at 6th level isn't too much better than a typical Full Spellcaster being able to learn and cast the spell as they need to, so I suppose I can agree with you here a little bit.
The strix in my campaign has been no more disruptive to the planned encounters in the adventure path than the other characters (half-elf, dwarf, two humans). My players routinely find odd ways to handle encounters, and flight is just another option to them. The strix skald has trivialized more encounters with her maxed-out Diplomacy skill than her wings (yes, the character overcame that -2 to charisma).
3. I've played a Druid up to 8th level, and I've never chosen to Wild Shape into something flying due to the limited uses per day and for the fact that I'd basically be by myself when I do fly, which is a bad thing to do and can easily result in PC death, even if I was merely scouting.
The druid PC in my Rise of the Runelords campaign primarily used her Wild Shape to turn into a bird. She was build for spellcasting in combat.
I worried about the flying alone aspect for the strix in my Iron Gods campaign, so when they recruited an NPC human bloodrager into the party, I gave that bloodrager the Air Elemental bloodline. That otherwise weak bloodline gives flight while raging at 8th level. Then at 9th level the bloodrager took the slyph feat Airy Step and at 11th level she took the slyph feat Wings of Air. I waived the racial requirement with the argument that the Air Elemental bloodline manifested flying was close enough to sylph.
Permanent flight is easily balanced at 11th level. The biggest effect was that the bloodrager switched to an armored coat for her medium armor, so that she could drop it to fly without raging (Wings of Air does not work in medium armor). Other party members liked the style and adopted it, too.
The two secondary wing attacks given by Metallic Wings also seem trivial at 11th level.