Brawler’s Flurry and Power Attack

[Bladelock]

We have gone over all of this.

- Double weapons cannot be used in twf while being wielded two handed. When they are used in TWF they act as 2 weapons.
- Monk Flurry is not Brawler Flurry. Monk is a special case related to TWF but it is not TWF. Brawler is a special case for TWF. Nothing in either of those rules alters the core two weapon fighting.

As I have mentioned before, without a special case, there is no way to 2 weapon fight with anything other than 2 weapons that are either light or 1 handed.

Throughout this tread you have tried to pull whatever rule you can, even misapply them, to push your opinion. Your vision of Brawler's Flurry is not supported by the rules.

Perfect Tommy wrote:

- offhand attack is terminology which merely refers to an extra attack, unrelated to hands used to wield. It is a historical term, which is now unfortunately obfuscatory.

Even if flurry was -4/-4, this is simply wrong.

However you have exhausted me. I leave you to your ideas... which are wholly unsupported by the rules.

[toastedamphibian]

Bladelock wrote:

See the rules below. In the second half of the first sentence of the two weapon fighting rules, it says you can get an extra attack if you meet certain conditions. In the first half of the sentence the conditions are defined: wielding a second weapon in what becomes the off hand.

YES! Exactly. That one instance of the word "Second" is the only thing that implies that you need 2 weapons. The only thing Brawler says to do of any relevance is to remove that one word.

Core Rules wrote:

(1)If you wield a ... weapon in your off hand,... (2)you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Quote:

It is the designated ... weapon ... that becomes the off hand. Anything else is undefined without a specific rule to override this general one.

It is defined exactly the same, just without that word "second"

Quote:

Brawler allows TWF with one weapon, so if that one weapon is be both primary and off hand then it is acting as two weapons unless we are told otherwise.

As you just said, the thing that requires primary and off hand to be two different weapons is exactly the rule that brawler tells us to ignore. You're basically saying that the rule doesn't work, because if you ignore part of it, it conflicts with the part you're ignoring.

Quote:

The more likely option is that BF simply allows TWF to work with no off hand, removing the need for a second weapon.

And then completly fails to function with any other feat in the line, or any other entity that mentions off hand weapons, and with penalty reductions pulled out of the ether?

It seems much more likely that the primary weapon and off-hand weapon can just both be the same weapon if the brawler want's them to be.

[Bladelock]

Toasted you may be right. There are three legitimate ways to read the rules.

Reading 1. There is no need for an off hand to take advantage of TWF
Reading 2. The wpn used during BF is treated as two weapons, both primary and off hand
Reading 3. The wpn is treated as one weapon, without acting as two, while acting as both primary and secondary weapons.

Your interpretation could be the direction the devs want to go with in a future FAQ. However I continue to think Reading-1 is the strongest option and Reading-3 requires 2 actual changes rather than one (although still a real possible dev ruling).

[Perfect Tommy]

And there is the right way. Offhand attacks in the context of twf merely refer to the extra attack gained, and have nothing to do with the number of hands, or which hand, or the weapon used.

And the bit about "You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands.... " is fluff.

The rules are under Benefit & Normal.

Normal Rule: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light

Benefit of feat: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.