need some help with a Grenadier Alchemist

[Friendly "Fire"]

Ok, I have a grenadier alchemist that is 6th level (about to be 7th), and I'm having some trouble getting my head wrapped around how his mechanics work. So I think I'm going to need some other players to Aid me on this...

I've got a Composite Longbow and I draw a:

Raining Arrow:

: This thick-shafted arrow contains a reservoir of holy water and is designed to burst upon impact. A raining arrow damages the target as normal, and also treats the target as though it had been struck by a direct hit from a thrown vial of holy water; adjacent creatures take splash damage from this effect. A raining arrow imparts a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of its weight. A raining arrow costs 30 gp, and can be crafted with a successful DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check.

on which I use:

Alchemical Weapon:

: At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question. The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action. This ability replaces poison resistance.

as a swift action, which allows me to attach a flask of Liquid Ice to the arrow.

I then use the Discovery:

Explosive Missile:

: As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate. An alchemist must be at least 4th level before selecting this discovery.

to attach a Bomb to the arrow and shot it at the target...

Now, if it hits (-2 to hit with a Raining Arrow)... what does it do?

Raining Arrow counts as a Hit with an arrow (1d8+STR)
Plus a hit with a flask of Holy Water... which does 2d4 positive energy damage to undead and evil outsiders...
The Alchemical Weapon item (Liquid Ice) "takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets" so it does 1d6 Cold damage.
The Bomb (from Explosive Missile) "deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target."...

So... which (if any) of these also get bonus damage from the Alchemists

Throw Anything:

: (Ex): All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.

ability?

Do I add the INT Modifier to damage done with:
#1) the Bomb? (3d6 fire)
#2) the Liquid Ice? (1d6 cold)
#3) the Holy Water/Raining Arrow? (2d4 Positive Energy)

If it only adds to one of these damages - which one? Each is a different energy type of damage, and so it often matters.

#4) (I guess) This is also complicated by the fact that the PC is an Ifrit, and has taken the Favored Class Bonus of "Extra Bomb damage +1/2" 7 times so it does +3.5 damage on BOMB damage... so if the INT bonus is added to #2 or #3, but not to #1, is the Favored Class Bonus of 3.5 points then added to #1

#5) And how about Point Blank Shot? Would it add a point of damage to one or more of these?

Thank you in advance for your time...

[Saleem Halabi]

From my reading of the rules the following occurs.

The primary target takes:
1d8+Str+PBS Piercing (Arrow)
3d6+Int+FCB Fire (Bomb)
1d6+Int Cold (Liquid Ice)
2d4+Int Positive Energy (Holy Water)

Adjacent creatures take:
3+Int+FCB Fire (Bomb, Reflex half)
2+Int Positive Energy (Holy Water)

[avr]

The grenadier alchemical weapon ability explicitly removes the splash ability, so no int to damage for the liquid ice there. Otherwise I agree with Saleem.

[Saleem Halabi]

An equally valid interpretation. It could be seen that the Liquid Ice is doing the damage (and it is still of the category "splash weapon" even if it isn't doing splash damage), or it can be interpreted as the arrow is doing extra ice damage and the splash weapon is just a component used to buff the arrow's damage.

When running a game and ambiguity is present I tend to default to whichever answer makes the PCs more awesome. That being said, avr's answer is equally likely to be true.

[Gray Warden]

According to a FAQ (that you can easily find yourself), you can only add Int (or any other modifier) once to any roll. So no 4xInt shenanigans to damage. The target gets all base damages (1d8 + 3d6 + 1d6 + 2d4) + Str if the bow is composite + Int from one of the effects. You choose the type of damage associated to the Int bonus (fire if it comes from the bomb, cold if from the liquid ice, etc).

[Friendly "Fire"]

Gray Warden wrote:

According to a FAQ (that you can easily find yourself), you can only add Int (or any other modifier) once to any roll. So no 4xInt shenanigans to damage. The target gets all base damages (1d8 + 3d6 + 1d6 + 2d4) + Str if the bow is composite + Int from one of the effects. You choose the type of damage associated to the Int bonus (fire if it comes from the bomb, cold if from the liquid ice, etc).

Sorry Gray Warden, clearly I am not as awesome as some people. I often can't find ANYTHING in the FAQ. Which section would the entry that you are referencing be in?

[Gray Warden]

Friendly "Fire" wrote:

Gray Warden wrote:

According to a FAQ (that you can easily find yourself), you can only add Int (or any other modifier) once to any roll. So no 4xInt shenanigans to damage. The target gets all base damages (1d8 + 3d6 + 1d6 + 2d4) + Str if the bow is composite + Int from one of the effects. You choose the type of damage associated to the Int bonus (fire if it comes from the bomb, cold if from the liquid ice, etc).

Sorry Gray Warden, clearly I am not as awesome as some people. I often can't find ANYTHING in the FAQ. Which section would the entry that you are referencing be in?

Hi, I was not in any way mocking you. I just could not look for the FAQ myself in that moment. Anyway, you can find the FAQ here.

[Saleem Halabi]

You arent making one roll. It is several rolls. That faq ruling would be applicable if you were trying to add Int multiple times to the attack roll, or to the arrow damage roll. Bomb damage is separate from splash weapon damage is separate from arrow damage.

[The Sideromancer]

You're missing the hybridization funnel to add another splash weapon to your liquid ice. :P

[Gray Warden]

Kyron "Death Knell" Shess wrote:

You arent making one roll. It is several rolls. That faq ruling would be applicable if you were trying to add Int multiple times to the attack roll, or to the arrow damage roll. Bomb damage is separate from splash weapon damage is separate from arrow damage.

Please. The roll is one: a single DAMAGE roll associated to a single ATTACK roll. It's not the number of dice rolled that determines the multiplicity of the roll.

This exact same topic has been tackled over and over on this forum, and in every thread after the FAQ came out, the final answer is very clear: you can not add multiple times Int to damage.

Also, do you really think it makes sense according to the game mechanics?

[Gray Warden]

The Sideromancer wrote:

You're missing the hybridization funnel to add another splash weapon to your liquid ice. :P

...and a Conductive weapon lol.

[Friendly "Fire"]

Gray Warden wrote:

Kyron "Death Knell" Shess wrote:

You arent making one roll. It is several rolls. That faq ruling would be applicable if you were trying to add Int multiple times to the attack roll, or to the arrow damage roll. Bomb damage is separate from splash weapon damage is separate from arrow damage.

Please. The roll is one: a single DAMAGE roll associated to a single ATTACK roll. It's not the number of dice rolled that determines the multiplicity of the roll.

This exact same topic has been tackled over and over on this forum, and in every thread after the FAQ came out, the final answer is very clear: you can not add multiple times Int to damage.

Also, do you really think it makes sense according to the game mechanics?

so, what type of damage is the INT bonus in the case above?

Fire, Cold or Positive Energy? And where does the Point Blank Shot bonus damage get added? And what about the Favored Class Bonus damage?

Sorry - that's a lot of questions. Here, I'll put these into a better list...

a) what type of damage is the INT bonus in the case above? (Fire, Cold, Positive Energy or some combination of the above?)
b) where does the Point Blank Shot bonus damage get added?
c) what about the Favored Class Bonus damage, does it get added if the INT bonus isn't Fire damage?

Thanks again everybody!

[Gray Warden]

a) You choose which Int bonus survives. The type depends on such choice.
b) To the arrow damage.
c) Yes, that's bomb extra damage (in other words, your bomb damage is not 3d6, but 3d6+3), it does not depends on Int.

[Friendly "Fire"]

What about

Clustered Shots:

: You take a moment to carefully aim your shots, causing them all to strike nearly the same spot.

Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use a full-attack action to make multiple ranged weapon attacks against the same opponent, total the damage from all hits before applying that opponent’s damage reduction.

Special: If the massive damage optional rule is being used (Core Rulebook 189), that rule applies if the total damage you deal with this feat is equal to or exceeds half the opponent’s full normal hit points (minimum 50 points of damage).

would the damage total only count STR bonuses once? so if an archer hits with a Composite Longbow (STR-18) 4 times, they would do 4d8+4 instead of 4d8+14. Is that correct?

[Friendly "Fire"]

Gray Warden wrote:

a) You choose which Int bonus survives. The type depends on such choice.

Who decides this? The Judge or the Player?

Gray Warden wrote:

b) To the arrow damage.

Why?

Link to FAQ.

this is important to me because if I use a Tangleshot arrow then attach an Liquid Ice or Bomb to it, then the arrow doesn't do HP damage, but both the Liquid Ice and the Bomb would... so I would hope the PBS would add to one of those...

Gray Warden wrote:

c) Yes, that's bomb extra damage (in other words, your bomb damage is not 3d6, but 3d6+3), it does not depends on Int.

Thanks!

[Gray Warden]

Clustered Shot is a specific feat that lets you sum all damage rolls (plural!) and consider them as a single hit, which helps against damage reduction. But each damage roll is resolved individually.

a) The player decides.
b) The FAQ refers to single bomb attacks. If you had thrown a bomb, you would have added PBS against the primary target. But in this case, again, to me it makes no sense to add PBS (or any feat for what it matters) multiple times on the same damage roll, because PBS affects the whole RANGED attack, not the single components that adds up to form the damage roll. So, since it's the arrow to be fired in the first place, I would add PBS to the arrow.

[Firebug]

I (nearly) completely disagree with Gray Warden.

Gray Warden wrote:

Please. The roll is one: a single DAMAGE roll associated to a single ATTACK roll. It's not the number of dice rolled that determines the multiplicity of the roll.

So, things that are multiple attack rolls for an attack (say Gunslinger Deadshot), or no attack rolls at all (Magic Missile) just aren't damage rolls at all?

How about Hybridization Funnel which explicitly states "when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both." 2 damage rolls, +int apples to both.

Look at it from the other side, how many times would you apply DR/Energy resistance? (flaming/etc weapon are exceptions because they call out their are just extra damage, not a separate damage roll).

TL:DR Damage rolls are not tied to attack rolls, though they commonly occur together.

Saleem Halabi wrote:

From my reading of the rules the following occurs.

The primary target takes:
1d8+Str+PBS Piercing (Arrow)
3d6+Int+FCB Fire (Bomb)
1d6+Int Cold (Liquid Ice)
2d4+Int Positive Energy (Holy Water)

Adjacent creatures take:
3+Int+FCB Fire (Bomb, Reflex half)
2+Int Positive Energy (Holy Water)

Saleem Halabi (post #2!) has the appropriate application from my reading of the rules. These (Arrow, Bomb, Liquid Ice, Holy Water) are all separate damage rolls.