| 19 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The question has come up in this thread concerning mindless creatures using spells and SLA's. Some mindless creatures can use spells and SLA, but these are the original forms of the creatures.
Can a creature such as a dragon that naturally has spells and/or SLA's, but was altered by the skeleton or zombie template use them?
The question to be FAQ'd is the bolded question.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The reason why I asked this was because I don't think you can always look at how some monsters are and say "this is the rule because they similar" unless of course they are following an actual listed rule.
I have Faq'd and for what its worth, my opinion is that barring something stating otherwise, when something becomes mindless that wasn't previously mindless it probably should lose those abilities.
It loses them, IIRC the template says as much. That said, there are other ways to create undead. Undead Lord, for example, doesn't lose his intelligence and abilities IIRC. Here is an undead dragon from a Lich template or some such.
Remember that as a GM you can also just create dudes, and there are intelligent undead out there, so just make and balance your monster as best as you can.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It loses them, IIRC the template says as much.
The template says things like "A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature" but nothing specific about losing spell-like abilities.
It probably should lose them, but there appears to be nothing in RAW to make this happen.
It loses them, IIRC the template says as much. That said, there are other ways to create undead. Undead Lord, for example, doesn't lose his intelligence and abilities IIRC. Here is an undead dragon from a Lich template or some such.
Remember that as a GM you can also just create dudes, and there are intelligent undead out there, so just make and balance your monster as best as you can.
The template does not call them out, and spells nor SLA's are listed as Special Qualities or Special Attacks in any monster statblock. They are listed separately.
Inferred addition, and 3.5, I believe that spell-like abilities used to be part of a creatures special qualities. And Pathfinder, however, that is no longer the case.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just to quote
Special Attacks: A zombie retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.Special Qualities: A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks
Feats: A zombie loses all feats possessed by the base creature, and does not gain feats as its Hit Dice increase, but it does gain Toughness as a bonus feat.
Abilities: Str +2, Dex –2. A zombie has no Con or Int score, and its Wis and Cha become 10.
It can't cast spells because:
Arcanist:
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the arcanist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level.Cleric:
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.Sorceror:
To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.[etc, etc, etc]
It lacks the ability to cast spells because of it's stats and that's the way every spell caster is defined. This is technically not RAW, since the dragon isn't a (whatever), but it's identifiable also from the Zombie template when you look at the chart:
Challenge Rating: This depends on the creature’s new total number of Hit Dice, as follows:
HD CR XP
1/2 1/8 50
1 1/4 100
2 1/2 200
3–4 1 400
5–6 2 600
7–8 3 800
9–10 4 1,200
11–12 5 1,600
13–16 6 2,400
17–20 7 3,200
21–24 8 4,800
25–28 9 6,400
It cares only about the HD of the creature, because every spell, ability, special attack, etc.. has been stripped of it and it also lacks the ability to attack more than once per turn; probably with it's slam unless it had a natural attack that was better than it's new slam (which is unlikely because the slam is of a size larger than it should be with extra strength bonus on it.)
This is evidence because CR is usually not *just* the HD; it's the overall HP, AC, BAB, etc.. but since the monster is being stripped of everything it care only about that stat since everything else is basically controlled automatically from the template (HP, spellcasting, abilities, etc.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It can't cast spells because:
It lacks the ability to cast spells because of it's stats and that's the way every spell caster is defined.
Arcanist:
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the arcanist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level.Cleric:
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.Sorceror:
To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.[etc, etc, etc]
A score of 10 is still good enough to cast spells. You would be limited to 0-level spells, however. And the score can always be boosted with items/spells.
Here is an undead dragon from a Lich template or some such.
Nope, that is a unique dragon, no template was applied there (despite the name on the SRD).
If you check the lich template, its everything different and will not match the final result in any shape.@thread
FAQ'ed, things like this could always help from extra clarification.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Inferred addition, and 3.5, I believe that spell-like abilities used to be part of a creatures special qualities. And Pathfinder, however, that is no longer the case.
In 3.5 they could not cast the spells or use SLA's. There are official cloud giant and dragon skeleton/zombies and they didnt have them.
Inferred addition, and 3.5, I believe that spell-like abilities used to be part of a creatures special qualities. And Pathfinder, however, that is no longer the case.
In 3.5 they could not cast the spells or use SLA's. There are official cloud giant and dragon skeleton/zombies and they didnt have them.
Blarg. "Inferred" was supposed to be "in third" - my talk-type system misunderstood me. XD
Anyway, after looking it up, I was at least slightly wrong: skeleton explicitly removed "special attacks" - said category was where SLAs were attached, as can be seen here (it was also true in 3rd edition, at least per my copy of Manual of the Planes). That means that they were removed, because those traits were removed by the template.
Pathfinder skeletons include the same wording as 3.5:
Special Attacks: A skeleton retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.
The issue is, SLA are no longer explicitly part of the "special attacks" line.
As to the cloud giant, it seems that it was applied the same way (as was storm giant). That said, d20pfsrd didn't quote their source, so it may be original; further, the PRD entry only shows the one human skeleton (and, looking at my bestiary, confirms that).
One of the things that potentially complicates this, however, is the introduction of the skeletal champion creature template.
Creating a Skeletal Champion
"Skeletal Champion" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature) and a minimum Intelligence of 3.CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
Type: The creature's type becomes undead. It keeps subtypes save for alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind.
Alignment: Any evil.
Armor Class: Natural armor as per skeleton.
Hit Dice: Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.
Defensive Abilities: A skeletal champion gains DR 5/bludgeoning, channel resistance +4, and immunity to cold. It also gains all of the standard undead traits.
Speed: As standard skeleton.
Attacks: As standard skeleton.
Abilities: Str +2, Dex +2. As undead, it has no Constitution score.
BAB: Its BAB for racial HD equals 3/4 of its HD.
Skills: Gains skill ranks per racial Hit Die equal to 4 + its Int modifier. Class skills for racial HD are Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth. Skills gained from class levels remain unchanged.
Feats: A skeletal champion gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Saves: Base save bonuses for racial Hit Dice are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/2 HD + 2.
Does that change the Special Attacks? I'd say no, but it's potentially unclear, because it's unaddressed.
Also, spell-like abilities are not clearly labled as special attacks anymore. I [url=http://paizo.com/search?q=special+attack&what=prd]can't quickly find an entry for special attacks[/rul], and I don't feel like cracking open Core.
The bestiary handles it like so:
<snip>
Space/Reach: The creature’s space and reach—if the creature’s space and reach are standard (one 5-foot square and a reach of 5 feet), this line is omitted.
Special Attacks: The creature’s special attacks. Full details for these attacks are given at the end of the stat block or in the universal monster rules appendix.
Spell-Like Abilities: After listing the caster level of the creature’s spell-like abilities, this section lists all of the creature’s spell-like abilities, organized by how many times per day it can use the abilities. Constant spell-like abilities function at all times but can be dispelled. A creature can reactivate a constant spell-like ability as a swift action.
Spells Known/Prepared: If the creature can actually cast spells, its caster level is indicated here followed by the spells it knows or typically has prepared. Unless otherwise indicated, a spellcasting creature does not receive any of a spellcasting class’s other abilities, such as a cleric’s ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells to cure or inflict spells.
Ability Scores: The creature’s ability scores are listed here. Unless otherwise indicated, a creature’s ability scores represent the baseline of its racial modifiers applied to scores of 10 or 11. Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), while creatures with character class levels have the elite array (15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8); in both cases, the creature’s ability score modifiers are listed at the end of its description.
Base Atk/CMB/CMD: These values give the creature’s base attack, its Combat Maneuver Bonus, and its Combat Maneuver Defense score. Feats: The creature’s feats are listed here. A bonus feat is indicated with a superscript “B.”
Skills: The creature’s skills are listed here. Racial modifiers to skills are indicated at the end of this entry. Languages: The languages most commonly spoken by the creature are listed here. For unusual creatures, you can swap out the languages known for other choices as needed. A creature with a higher-than-normal Intelligence score receives the appropriate number of bonus languages.
SQ: Any special qualities possessed by the creature. Environment: The regions and climates in which the creature is typically encountered are listed here; these often present wider ranges than the icons at the top of the stat block indicate. In this case, the icon listed at the top of the stat block indicates the creature’s preferred terrain.
<snip>
This clearly separates SLA and SA.
To me, this indicates a clear change in rules.
Also, very, very likely, an oversight and accidental change in rules.
I'd love for someone to do a deep dive and look at any skeletons published anywhere in PF to see if SLA have been retained. I'm pretty sure they have not, but I'm uncertain how many skeletons have been made from SLA-using races in PF.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd love for someone to do a deep dive and look at any skeletons published anywhere in PF to see if SLA have been retained. I'm pretty sure they have not, but I'm uncertain how many skeletons have been made from SLA-using races in PF.
I feel so silly because I actually looked this up, and never posted it.
There are no official skeletons from a base creature that had SLA access, but there is an official zombie from the bestiary section of Carrion Crown.
It is a Storm Giant Zombie. Storm Giants get SLA's, but the zombie didn't.
Giant Zombie CR 8
XP 4,800
Storm giant zombie
NE Huge undead
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
Defense
AC 19, touch 9, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +1 Dex, +4 natural, –2 size)
hp 126 (23d8+23)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +13
DR 5/slashing; Immune undead traits
Offense
Speed 35 ft. (50 ft. base), swim 30 ft. (40 ft. base)
Melee mwk broken greatsword +29 (4d6+22) or slam +30 (2d6+22)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Statistics
Str 41, Dex 12, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +17; CMB +34; CMD 45
Feats ToughnessB
Skills Swim +19
SQ staggered
Gear breastplate, masterwork broken greatsword
Ecology
Environment any warm
Organization solitary, pair, or band (3–6)
Treasure none
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd love for someone to do a deep dive and look at any skeletons published anywhere in PF to see if SLA have been retained. I'm pretty sure they have not, but I'm uncertain how many skeletons have been made from SLA-using races in PF.I feel so silly because I actually looked this up, and never posted it.
There are no official skeletons from a base creature that had SLA access, but there is an official zombie from the bestiary section of Carrion Crown.
It is a Storm Giant Zombie. Storm Giants get SLA's, but the zombie didn't.
** spoiler omitted **
just bumping to be sure the example is seen.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Awesome! Thanks!
That's definitely a clear indicator!
:D
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Using a special ability is usually a standard action, but whether it is a standard action, a full-round action, or not an action at all is defined by the ability.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): ....
Supernatural Abilities (Su): ....
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): ....
Special Abilities contain Su, SLA, and Ex.
Since the template removes Special Qualities except for certain Ex, I think SQ = SA./cevah
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Using a special ability is usually a standard action, but whether it is a standard action, a full-round action, or not an action at all is defined by the ability.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): ....
Supernatural Abilities (Su): ....
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): ....Special Abilities contain Su, SLA, and Ex.
Since the template removes Special Qualities except for certain Ex, I think SQ = SA./cevah
SQ usually has its own line on stat blocks, and has its own definition seperately from Su/Ex/SLA in the glossary. I think SQ=/=SA. Just as tacticslion indicated above.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the SA is biological or physical in nature, skeletons and zombies keep those. Everything else goes away. In nearly every case, these natural SAs will be Extraordinary in nature.
So, no. Unless you use the Magus variants, all supernatural or spell-like abilities are lost.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Interestingly, Undead keep Poison and Venom attacks. Poison is an Extraordinary Special Quality that modifies certain attacks, all of which are specifically kept by the skeleton and zombie templates.
Undead use Charisma in place of Constitution for derived abilities, so the poison can sometimes be even worse than it was in life, especially if special templates like Flaming or Bloody are added, which increase the undead's charisma.
Creatures like giant vipers and wyverns make surprisingly good skeletons. Giant spiders and wasps make fantastic zombies.
Well that's certainly clarifies intent!
Canon'd~!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the SA is biological or physical in nature, skeletons and zombies keep those. Everything else goes away. In nearly every case, these natural SAs will be Extraordinary in nature.
So, no. Unless you use the Magus variants, all supernatural or spell-like abilities are lost.
I mean I can see why that might drive what you rule at your own table, but the templates don’t go off biological vs. not biological. Templates state what is and isn’t changed and SLA’s aren’t listed as being changed or removed.
The Magus variants don’t really do much since Skeletal Champions/Zombie Lords could already cast spells if they had spellcasting class levels. They don’t lose their class levels nor do they lose any mental stats. I guess the only actual point of the Magus variants is to grant your undead the Silent metamagic feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My post was an explanation of what the rules mean/intend.
Many people think of the game rules as prescriptive. That can cause comprehension issues.
When that happens, a good exercise is to think of the rules as descriptive. It is often very obvious what the rules are trying to achieve in game. From there, it becomes easier to tell what the rules mean