WBL is too restrictive...


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My one biggest complaint about Starfinder (and Pathfinder) is WBL. Not only does it create this false idea that "This is the exact amount of money you must have by this point!" Which I has a GM and player hate with a passion... But it makes it so restrictive in what you can, and cannot, spend money on.

It makes it borderline stupid to go for any fun utility items because "WBL expects you to have X by now."

Though, on the other hand, I understand why it is there. WBL is there to stop power gamers from purchasing nothing BUT combat bonuses and as such making themselves too powerful, while also giving a basic guideline to GMs about, here how around how much cash a character at this level could have.

(Aka, forget this neat magical item that gives me utility! I can get an extra +1 to my weapon!)

I wish Paizo had found a different way to do this though. Instead of WBL found a way to let people have their utility items AND their mandatory combat items.

In Starfinder your mandatory combat items are:
Weapon
Armor
Secondary Weapon
Personal Upgrades
Fusions
Implants

Which, sadly, does actually skew the game for Ranged-only characters because they don't need a melee weapon, while melee characters absolutely need a ranged weapon as a backup.


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WBL works exactly like it did in Pathfinder.

Which is to say it provides a certain level of expectation on how much wealth a player should have so the GM knows what level of challenges are appropriate.

I'm hoping we'll see something like Automatic Bonus Progression in the future, though for Starfinder I expect it to be more like you acquire a weapon a character generation which you "upgrade" to deal level appropriate damage as you go along without ever spending money on it. Of course, this would reduce your WBL at the same rate.

Really, there isn't much stuff to spend money on in Starfinder aside from the things you mention, unlike Pathfidner which had heaps of situational items. Starfinder doesn't. So I think WBL is even less of a problem in Starfinder than it was in Pathfinder.


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Those are merely guidelines.

Use whatever is best for you and your group.

No one from Paizo will come knocking on your door if you don't use it. :-)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HWalsh wrote:

Which, sadly, does actually skew the game for Ranged-only characters because they don't need a melee weapon, while melee characters absolutely need a ranged weapon as a backup.

At early levels yeah maybe. But you'll quickly find yourself provoking every other turn without a melee weapon or being an Operative. Step Up and Strike is going to be a common way to lock down ranged characters.


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WBL is a guideline to show where you should be compared to opponents. It is not a restriction.

I have never heard of a GM saying "the party is too rich according to WBL, I have to steal something from them".

It's also a great tool when somebody joins mid campaign.


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I think what bugs me more is that wealth is typically used to enhance the character's stats on the character sheet, rather than actually being used how wealth is used in a realistic setting.

Since WBL became a thing. I rarely see people spend money on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or even just personal enjoyment. It's always about getting the next +1.

Edit: An odd though: "always about getting the next +1" sounds a lot like "always trying to get the next high." And money is spent solely in pursuit of that, above and beyond all things. There's only one conclusion: WBL is an addiction.


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Perhaps an alternative view: don't use WBL as a guide for how much money a character has, or gets. Use WBL as a guide for how much relevant equipment they have. Money not spent on adventuring gear doesn't count towards such. Yes, this means you, the GM, have a responsibility to supply more and better loot to players who routinely spend money on stuff other than their charsheet. And likewise, you have a responsibility to cut the spigot on a player who does nothing but spend on the charsheet. I consider this part of the basic GM responsibility.

Alternative alternative, though this one diverges more radically from the norm: use WBL as an equipment pool. You *only* increase this pool by leveling up. Loot found during an adventure can be used during the adventure, but otherwise can only continue to be used if you choose to assign your WBL towards it. Otherwise, it vanishes between adventures. Credit rewards are likewise abstracted, or rather, abstracted when dealing with your equipment. Equipment lost or used up during an adventure, is likewise replaced when you reassign your WBL pool.


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As a Pathfinder GM, I treat almost ALL wealth as a mechanical thing for mechanical purposes, and only charge a pittance for flavor only things until the players start using them for gifts or diplomatic edges. Want to say your saddle is velvet lined and dyed fuchsia? Cool, go for it. Have a bottle of wine your character always keeps on hand? I ain't gonna make you refill it until you give it as a gift or use it to loosen some tongues. Want to buy a feather boa and a silk fan? Alright, that'll be 7 silver. Tithing 10% to your church? Okay, encounters drop more and the rest of the party gets taxed and left with the same amount you would've had. You're exempt because clearly you're clergy. You wanna spend 15 gold showing the town a good time? They give you a decent little dagger as a token of their esteem.


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My solution, after careful soul searching, is to ignore WBL as a "hard and fast" rule.

Meaning, eh, it's an average.

I will restrict my players to level +1 gear though to stop power gaming equipment. If they end up filthy rich, then they do.

The Exchange

WBL is a guideline, and for home games tends to be on the low side. That's all it is, and it's very handy at that. How people use that wealth is up to them, if you feel that they're using that wealth to only buy combat abilities, that's an issue you have with how they spend wealth not the guideline on how much they should probably have at that point. I was in a game last weekend where I spent a significant amount of money on private investigators and attorneys, but that was just part of the game not a more correct use than a better weapon. And the wealth table has honestly been a life saver before. I was in one game where the GM had a habit on only giving out items instead of gold, and all the items we were receiving were completely inappropriate for my character. I went from level 5 to 13 without gaining ANY new gear for my character. The wealth table helped us gauge how much several of us needed(others were also getting less, I was just the only one who had gotten none) to be able to handle level appropriate foes again once this was pointed out to the GM.


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Lane_S wrote:

WBL is a guideline to show where you should be compared to opponents. It is not a restriction.

I have never heard of a GM saying "the party is too rich according to WBL, I have to steal something from them".

It's also a great tool when somebody joins mid campaign.

I have seen GMs say "the party is too rich according to WBL, I'm going to cut back on loot for a bit." Or "the party is too poor according to WBL, I'm going to boost loot for a bit."


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bookrat wrote:

Since WBL became a thing. I rarely see people spend money on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or even just personal enjoyment. It's always about getting the next +1.

If this is the case then it is the GM's fault.

If you invest in a shop it should give you a discount on it's goods, it may even get better prices from other merchants in town. It can also provide adventure hooks in other towns.

Own a home, get free lodging. If you are away for a while rent it out. Could be that a merchant, mercenary leader or bounty hunter stayed there and now has a friendly attitude to the party.

Does the GM use Fame? If so influence, politics, donations, churches may have an effect far beyond where the money was spent.


bookrat wrote:

I think what bugs me more is that wealth is typically used to enhance the character's stats on the character sheet, rather than actually being used how wealth is used in a realistic setting.

Since WBL became a thing. I rarely see people spend money on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or even just personal enjoyment. It's always about getting the next +1.

Edit: An odd though: "always about getting the next +1" sounds a lot like "always trying to get the next high." And money is spent solely in pursuit of that, above and beyond all things. There's only one conclusion: WBL is an addiction.

Money is an addiction. WBL is a tool for managing it.

People spending money on gear to keep their characters alive has been a thing since it became possible to regularly buy gear, not since WBL. Which admittedly might have been around the same time - I think both of those assumptions came into full force with 3.0, though 2E had been trending in the "magic mart" direction.

And it makes sense: Do you spend your cash on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or personal enjoyment or on something that will help you stay alive in your next deadly fight?

Without WBL limits, people wouldn't take the extra cash and blow it, they'd just use it to buy more and better gear.

If you want people to spend money on other things, you need to either limit what they're allowed to spend on personal gear, what it's effective to spend on personal gear or give more tangible benefits for spending money on other things.


HWalsh wrote:

My solution, after careful soul searching, is to ignore WBL as a "hard and fast" rule.

Meaning, eh, it's an average.

I will restrict my players to level +1 gear though to stop power gaming equipment. If they end up filthy rich, then they do.

Welcome to the dark side! Have a cookie! Or better yet, have a dozen, who's counting.

Good for you. :-)


HWalsh wrote:

My solution, after careful soul searching, is to ignore WBL as a "hard and fast" rule.

Meaning, eh, it's an average.

I will restrict my players to level +1 gear though to stop power gaming equipment. If they end up filthy rich, then they do.

I think average and guideline is how it's intended to be used.

If your players end up above that average, but still limited to level +1 gear, they'll likely spend the excess on buying more level +1 gear, unless they've really maxed out everything they've got.


Lane_S wrote:
bookrat wrote:

Since WBL became a thing. I rarely see people spend money on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or even just personal enjoyment. It's always about getting the next +1.

If this is the case then it is the GM's fault.

If you invest in a shop it should give you a discount on it's goods, it may even get better prices from other merchants in town. It can also provide adventure hooks in other towns.

Own a home, get free lodging. If you are away for a while rent it out. Could be that a merchant, mercenary leader or bounty hunter stayed there and now has a friendly attitude to the party.

Does the GM use Fame? If so influence, politics, donations, churches may have an effect far beyond where the money was spent.

If those first two work, then what they do is produce a return on investment that can be used to break WBL guidelines.

Though honestly, they shouldn't be giving more of a return on investment than the loot you get adventuring, unless you take a lot of downtime. You can adventure for a couple weeks, come back a level higher and easily have 20-30% more cash than you went with.
Not a lot businesses get you anything like that. Bribing politicians, maybe.


Starfinder says that spaceships uses a different kind of wealth than character equipment. You can't sell your spaceship to buy a better raygun, or sell your raygun to buy a better spaceship.

So maybe one could follow that precedent and run a Pathfinder game where mundane items and buildings and employees are paid for using the kingdom's currency - I'll call them florins - and magic items are bought using gold pieces, which are only traded for magic things. And it's impossible to convert florins to gold, and vice versa, for mystical/cultural/religious reasons.


It would make sense to run stuff like buildings/businesses owned by the players like the starship. WBL is more or less their liquid cash and combat equipment. It is mostly there to give GM an idea of where abouts your party is at "power wise" for the encounters they want to throw at them.

Maybe you are running a stingier campaign thats fine but if you do then it gives you a guideline to change CR for fights appropriately so you don't party kill when you don't intend to.

And conversely if they are ahead of the curve money wise and have better combat gear than expected then you can throw some harder encounters at them and be able to expect them to handle them well.


thejeff wrote:

Money is an addiction. WBL is a tool for managing it.

People spending money on gear to keep their characters alive has been a thing since it became possible to regularly buy gear, not since WBL. Which admittedly might have been around the same time - I think both of those assumptions came into full force with 3.0, though 2E had been trending in the "magic mart" direction.

And it makes sense: Do you spend your cash on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or personal enjoyment or on something that will help you stay alive in your next deadly fight?

Without WBL limits, people wouldn't take the extra cash and blow it, they'd just use it to buy more and better gear.

If you want people to spend money on other things, you need to either limit what they're allowed to spend on personal gear, what it's effective to spend on personal gear or give more tangible benefits for spending money on other things.

Note that 5e removed the magic Mart and the use of funds for personal stat increases.

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is having three level +1 weapons really going to add much more benefit than having one or two? If not, I fail to see how immense wealth will greatly expand a character's power (the level limits still limit your power).


bookrat wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Money is an addiction. WBL is a tool for managing it.

People spending money on gear to keep their characters alive has been a thing since it became possible to regularly buy gear, not since WBL. Which admittedly might have been around the same time - I think both of those assumptions came into full force with 3.0, though 2E had been trending in the "magic mart" direction.

And it makes sense: Do you spend your cash on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or personal enjoyment or on something that will help you stay alive in your next deadly fight?

Without WBL limits, people wouldn't take the extra cash and blow it, they'd just use it to buy more and better gear.

If you want people to spend money on other things, you need to either limit what they're allowed to spend on personal gear, what it's effective to spend on personal gear or give more tangible benefits for spending money on other things.

Note that 5e removed the magic Mart and the use of funds for personal stat increases.

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.

But again, that's not "WBL", that's the lack of combat gear for purchase. If you could buy stuff for combat, you'd have the same problem - WBL guidelines or not. This was essentially my "limit what they're allowed to spend on personal gear".

It always was a problem back in AD&D. The game handed out huge hoards of loot and there weren't obvious ways to spend them. There were training costs, which ate up a lot, especially at low level, but many ignored those and they didn't really cover things throughout the game. 3.x brought the magic mart to the fore and switched to a different set of problems.
5E has apparently switched back. :)

Sure, in some styles of game, it make sense to be able to use that loot on building up downtime stuff. For some this makes it more immersive. But that generally requires a sandboxy, home base from which we got out on discrete adventures, kind of a game. If you're playing more of an epic quest, it's hard to invest in all that kind of stuff.
The obvious solution of course is simply to not hand them the huge piles of loot, if you don't have things for them to spend it on.


I certainly agree, Jeff. :)

I'm also quite partial to HWalsh's solution.


bookrat wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Money is an addiction. WBL is a tool for managing it.

People spending money on gear to keep their characters alive has been a thing since it became possible to regularly buy gear, not since WBL. Which admittedly might have been around the same time - I think both of those assumptions came into full force with 3.0, though 2E had been trending in the "magic mart" direction.

And it makes sense: Do you spend your cash on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or personal enjoyment or on something that will help you stay alive in your next deadly fight?

Without WBL limits, people wouldn't take the extra cash and blow it, they'd just use it to buy more and better gear.

If you want people to spend money on other things, you need to either limit what they're allowed to spend on personal gear, what it's effective to spend on personal gear or give more tangible benefits for spending money on other things.

Note that 5e removed the magic Mart and the use of funds for personal stat increases.

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.

I could use all that gold to become a wealthy landowner, and use the remainder and profits to hire adventurers to solve my problems!


Ravingdork wrote:
Is having three level +1 weapons really going to add much more benefit than having one or two? If not, I fail to see how immense wealth will greatly expand a character's power (the level limits still limit your power).

Depends: I'm not sure where the current limits leave you. Can you buy all the basic stuff you want within the WBL limits, the Big Six equivalent?

If you can get all the basic gear up to level limits and you're just buying an extra weapon, that's one thing. If the extra money lets you get armor and weapon at level limits, that's something else.


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My group has a house rule for new characters: we use Wealth By Level, but we limit the amount spent into "buckets":
=========
25% max on weapons
25% max on armor & protective gear that grants bonuses to saving throws
25% on Miscellaneous Magic Items that do not fall into the above categories
15% on disposable items (scrolls, potions, wands, etc.)
10% on additional gear and liquid assets

Apart from this last category, money not spent in one category must be halved if planned to save it as cash.
=========
In-game, this is not adhered to, as the DM makes available any opportunities for magic item purchases or additional windfalls, this only applies to new characters. Further, during play it is exceedingly unlikely that a player will spend every bit of their assets on one extremely powerful weapon, because they will suffer in all other categories if they do, and in all likelihood their joy at using the mega-weapon or mega-armor will be short-lived as they fail a critical save or get obliterated because their other defenses are too low.


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bookrat wrote:

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.

It depends on the campaign; what's Frodo going to do with 10,000 gold pieces when he's supposed to be sneaking into Mordor? Fantasy heroes don't normally spend their time investing in small businesses.

And if the players try to spend it on non-magical but practical things, it causes headaches for the GM. "Well, I've got a ton of gold, so I'll hire a hundred mercenaries to guard us at all times while we explore the area."


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It's pretty easy to work out solutions. Much like the starship BP being separated from the PC WBL one could separate the funny money from the serious stuff. It wouldn't be too hard to add a tracking sheet to each PC showing their NPC connections and resources. This would entice them to develop that more, seeing tangible feedback on those efforts.

I was running an AD&D adventure so there was a huge wealth jump at the end (to help induce a level gain, as gold gave XP), but we were playing 3.x so power levels would skyrocket. So instead of that the players agreed to my idea that the loot was "campaign money" not to be used to power up their PCs (who had plenty already).
They loved it, buying a farm, a church, tracts of land, renovating a corrupt town, etc. Their PCs gained some enriching awards, some long quality downtime to watch the fruits of their efforts ripen, and developed roots in the world where they had an impact within society, not just in the darker fringes.
When adventure (a.k.a. threat) called again, there were heartfelt separations and sincere worries of the state of their affairs when gone.
:)

Also had a campaign idea for a world where magic was bartered, not bought, so gold was in a separate economy. In SF, UPB/credits could be separated from...who knows? There's no demarcation any more.

And similar to 5E, had another idea where most abilities granted by WBL were instead inherent to the PCs. So the players would have "wealth" to buy bonuses, etc., for their characters, but the gold was disconnected from PC combat power. In SF, I suppose that would be you buy a simple laser weapon, but it levels with you (when applicable), either due to better aim or one's own engineering/magic enhancement of it. Or "PC build credits" could be dispersed every level to upgrade, as I think every item leveling with you makes PCs more powerful than intended.
The players would never need a great amount of actual credits, just enough to buy the starting sets of their tools. Some items like armor would work a little rougher, but one could connect similar types.

In Starfinder, it's a bit tougher to break away from WBL being central as the non-adventurer world is a skeleton for now. One could always imagine Pathfinder's default being similar to portions of Earth's history, but with SF, there are loads of questions unanswered. So who knows how one can spend one's money other than on gear. There's hardly a reference point for any endeavor outside of adventuring.
Hmm...

Cheers


Matthew Downie wrote:
bookrat wrote:

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.

It depends on the campaign; what's Frodo going to do with 10,000 gold pieces when he's supposed to be sneaking into Mordor? Fantasy heroes don't normally spend their time investing in small businesses.

And if the players try to spend it on non-magical but practical things, it causes headaches for the GM. "Well, I've got a ton of gold, so I'll hire a hundred mercenaries to guard us at all times while we explore the area."

That's pretty much my take. I really have very little interest in the whole "buying and running a business" or even "becoming landed nobility" concepts, so the whole "We need tons of money to spend outside of gear" thing doesn't resonate with me.

I'd much rather ditch the idea of needing to buy upgraded gear - whether through auto-scaling bonuses or whatever, and just slash the loot so we don't have piles of gold lying around. Conan was always happy with a pouch of gems to give to his latest girl and fund his next drinking spree.

Scarab Sages

I think the OP is missing 2 things:

First, WBL functions fundamentally differently than it does in pathfinder. Not only does stuff sell for less, but it isn't upgradable. So in PF, as soon as you got a masterwork longsword, you could stick with it through the rest of the game, enchanting it as you see fit. It was a long term investment that it was hard to go wrong with. In other words, as long as you were planning to keep with it, adding another +1 enchantment bonus only ever helped you.

For Starfinder, that's not how it works. As soon as you hit an appropriate level, that longsword becomes useless because you now need a plasma sword to be in competitive damage range. You need to balance when and what to upgrade.

Secondly: WBL isn't liquid cash or even UPBs. It comes in all shapes and sizes. Maybe you kill a vesk mercenary and take his officer's cerimonial plate, or kill a ganger with an Artillary laser. You as PCs aren't supposed to always get the 'next +1.' Especially since stuff sells for 1/10th. You are supposed to find the stuff you need, not everything you want.

As an example-In our Dead Suns campaign:

Minor spoilers for Dead Suns:
My Kasatha soldier has an Artillary laser he's found. Not something I would have bought for myself, but we found it on a ganger and I'm keeping it around. Indeed, I've never actually fired it, but a d10 penetrating laser seems useful. Our Yskoi Exocortex mechanic found a tactical arc emitter. Again, he's more of a sniper type, but he took the electricity shotgun as a backup weapon. It looks like I won't be able to upgrade out of my hidden soldier armor until at least level 3, but that's the way it goes.


thejeff wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Is having three level +1 weapons really going to add much more benefit than having one or two? If not, I fail to see how immense wealth will greatly expand a character's power (the level limits still limit your power).

Depends: I'm not sure where the current limits leave you. Can you buy all the basic stuff you want within the WBL limits, the Big Six equivalent?

If you can get all the basic gear up to level limits and you're just buying an extra weapon, that's one thing. If the extra money lets you get armor and weapon at level limits, that's something else.

A larger concern with Monty Hauls is that even if there are level limits, when you have 10x the disposable income you're supposed to things like medkits and grenades become much less of a resource that needs to be tracked, which is a thing for which they are designed.

Grenades especially deal bigger hits than other things in their category with the understanding that each time you use one it's gone.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
bookrat wrote:

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.

It depends on the campaign; what's Frodo going to do with 10,000 gold pieces when he's supposed to be sneaking into Mordor? Fantasy heroes don't normally spend their time investing in small businesses.

And if the players try to spend it on non-magical but practical things, it causes headaches for the GM. "Well, I've got a ton of gold, so I'll hire a hundred mercenaries to guard us at all times while we explore the area."

Isn't that effectively what Aragorn did? Several times over. Got himself a few armies, and even an undead army.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Adhering to WBL isn't as necessary in Starfinder as it is in Pathfinder. The GM has a lot more freedom to deviate from it because items have availability limitations.


I feel like level limits make huge hauls, well, not a complete non-issue, but not much of one. Medkits still have bulk (and advanced ones are level-limited), grenades rely on Quick Draw for full attacks... I'm just not to scared by the effect of dropping a million credits on any given party.


bookrat wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
bookrat wrote:

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.

It depends on the campaign; what's Frodo going to do with 10,000 gold pieces when he's supposed to be sneaking into Mordor? Fantasy heroes don't normally spend their time investing in small businesses.

And if the players try to spend it on non-magical but practical things, it causes headaches for the GM. "Well, I've got a ton of gold, so I'll hire a hundred mercenaries to guard us at all times while we explore the area."

Isn't that effectively what Aragorn did? Several times over. Got himself a few armies, and even an undead army.

Effectively, perhaps, but not mercenaries and not with tons of gold he'd found somewhere.


thejeff wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
bookrat wrote:

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.

It depends on the campaign; what's Frodo going to do with 10,000 gold pieces when he's supposed to be sneaking into Mordor? Fantasy heroes don't normally spend their time investing in small businesses.

And if the players try to spend it on non-magical but practical things, it causes headaches for the GM. "Well, I've got a ton of gold, so I'll hire a hundred mercenaries to guard us at all times while we explore the area."

Isn't that effectively what Aragorn did? Several times over. Got himself a few armies, and even an undead army.
Effectively, perhaps, but not mercenaries and not with tons of gold he'd found somewhere.

As far as WBL is concerned, there's no difference.


My 5E group has the opposite problem. We get very little gold and no treasure. We end up having to get inventive at times trying to buy food and rooms at an inn.

bookrat wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Money is an addiction. WBL is a tool for managing it.

People spending money on gear to keep their characters alive has been a thing since it became possible to regularly buy gear, not since WBL. Which admittedly might have been around the same time - I think both of those assumptions came into full force with 3.0, though 2E had been trending in the "magic mart" direction.

And it makes sense: Do you spend your cash on influence, politics, homes, businesses, donations, churches, or personal enjoyment or on something that will help you stay alive in your next deadly fight?

Without WBL limits, people wouldn't take the extra cash and blow it, they'd just use it to buy more and better gear.

If you want people to spend money on other things, you need to either limit what they're allowed to spend on personal gear, what it's effective to spend on personal gear or give more tangible benefits for spending money on other things.

Note that 5e removed the magic Mart and the use of funds for personal stat increases.

When it comes to gold, the biggest complaint I see about 5e is "there's nothing to spend your gold on!" Which is kind of funny considering my 'WBL is an Addiction' thought. Remove WBL and personal gear, and all of a sudden no one knows what to do with their gold. Despite all the stuff you could do with it to make the game more immersive.

The issue is not the lack of tangible benefits, the issue is that it's not written down in the book and people seem to refuse (or are unable) to use their imagination or creativity to figure it out.

Grand Lodge

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As a life long player of Rogues and Rogue-like characters, I quite often spend more of my available money on utility items, bribes, various consumables, etc.

My current PFS rogue, who is level 9, only has +2 leather armor and +1 weapons...but she has a Handy Haversack filled to the brim with something useful for just about any situation that might come up. :)


bookrat wrote:
thejeff wrote:
bookrat wrote:


Isn't that effectively what Aragorn did? Several times over. Got himself a few armies, and even an undead army.
Effectively, perhaps, but not mercenaries and not with tons of gold he'd found somewhere.
As far as WBL is concerned, there's no difference.

I guess. In the sense that hiring mercenaries isn't really covered by WBL, nor is allying with (or being given command of) a nation with armies to fight your common enemies.

All of those would be, in a game, GM designed plots, set up precisely to put PCs in charge of armies for a grand battle. Not the PCs hiring troops to screw up an adventure designed for them to handle alone.

Grand Lodge

Matthew Downie wrote:
"Well, I've got a ton of gold, so I'll hire a hundred mercenaries to guard us at all times while we explore the area."

That is why most GM's ban the use of leadership and cohorts


Well, if your players are rich enough to be buying mercenaries then it's time to stop doing dungeon crawls. (at least without something to take the attention of the mercs) because presumably now the enemy has access to those same resources.

So if your players start building armies that means that's the kind of game they want to play.

So guess what. Time to start having army skirmishes.

Or have dungeons with a huge enemy force in front of the gates.

Now your mercenary force has to get the attention of the force while the players delve into the dungeon.

Every few rooms do a vignette with the armies and let players describe and roll certain actions.

My original point at ten start of all this is that wealth shouldn't be used solely to up your stats. Spend it in the world to interact with NPCs in some function, whether that's procuring an army, building a church, influencing the king by financing his war with the nation across the sea, or whatever. It let's the game be taken to the next level; and it gives your PC a ton more narrative power.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aerotan wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Is having three level +1 weapons really going to add much more benefit than having one or two? If not, I fail to see how immense wealth will greatly expand a character's power (the level limits still limit your power).

Depends: I'm not sure where the current limits leave you. Can you buy all the basic stuff you want within the WBL limits, the Big Six equivalent?

If you can get all the basic gear up to level limits and you're just buying an extra weapon, that's one thing. If the extra money lets you get armor and weapon at level limits, that's something else.

A larger concern with Monty Hauls is that even if there are level limits, when you have 10x the disposable income you're supposed to things like medkits and grenades become much less of a resource that needs to be tracked, which is a thing for which they are designed.

Grenades especially deal bigger hits than other things in their category with the understanding that each time you use one it's gone.

Generally you can only afford one item above your level, maybe a couple equal to your level. Most of your items are going to be well under your level (assuming you adhere to the WBL guidelines).

Grenades are overpriced and, with a couple exceptions, aren't worth buying.

The whole "only spend 25% of your wealth on weapons (or other category)" bit is laughable. Weapons at your level cost almost exactly 1/4 your total funds (and possibly more in some cases). Adhering to that particular guideline while having a backup weapon is next to impossible without severely hampering your character's capabilities.


Slyme wrote:

As a life long player of Rogues and Rogue-like characters, I quite often spend more of my available money on utility items, bribes, various consumables, etc.

My current PFS rogue, who is level 9, only has +2 leather armor and +1 weapons...but she has a Handy Haversack filled to the brim with something useful for just about any situation that might come up. :)

And the +2 armour and +1 weapon are actually valid in Pathfinder, whereas in Starfinder you HAVE to keep buying the next stuff up or you'll proportionately get far more behind than not getting "the next +1." Not to mention that everyone uses weapons and armour in Starfinder, but not everyone does in Pathfinder. Sure, you've got Weapon Specialization, but those damage dice add a lot of potential (if unreliable) damage, and there's no equivalent for AC. Armour Upgrades, Personal Upgrades, Weapon Fusions, and Augmentations fill the role of Wondrous Items, so it's not like those aren't a thing to buy, either.


Ravingdork wrote:


Grenades are overpriced and, with a couple exceptions, aren't worth buying.

The only ones I could figure might be worthwhile are Smoke Grenade (probably) and Stickybomb Grenade I (maybe).


Ravingdork wrote:
Aerotan wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Is having three level +1 weapons really going to add much more benefit than having one or two? If not, I fail to see how immense wealth will greatly expand a character's power (the level limits still limit your power).

Depends: I'm not sure where the current limits leave you. Can you buy all the basic stuff you want within the WBL limits, the Big Six equivalent?

If you can get all the basic gear up to level limits and you're just buying an extra weapon, that's one thing. If the extra money lets you get armor and weapon at level limits, that's something else.

A larger concern with Monty Hauls is that even if there are level limits, when you have 10x the disposable income you're supposed to things like medkits and grenades become much less of a resource that needs to be tracked, which is a thing for which they are designed.

Grenades especially deal bigger hits than other things in their category with the understanding that each time you use one it's gone.

Generally you can only afford one item above your level, maybe a couple equal to your level. Most of your items are going to be well under your level (assuming you adhere to the WBL guidelines).

Isn't that kind of a counter to your original point? If you've got the money, you'll be boosted quite a bit by having all your gear at level + 1, rather than just 1 item. Immense wealth will boost your power, even with level limits.


Ravingdork wrote:
Is having three level +1 weapons really going to add much more benefit than having one or two? If not, I fail to see how immense wealth will greatly expand a character's power (the level limits still limit your power).

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, lots and lots and lots of Fusions. Even that is really broader rather than higher, though.

I suspect the only serious concern is if you start having the entire party geared out entirely with +2 equipment. The power curve generally seems to assume that PCs will mostly have +0 gear, with some +1 stuff, and only rarely +2. If the party has nothing but +2 gear, then you might have to treat them as being roughly one level higher in terms of capability.


Bloodrealm wrote:
Slyme wrote:

As a life long player of Rogues and Rogue-like characters, I quite often spend more of my available money on utility items, bribes, various consumables, etc.

My current PFS rogue, who is level 9, only has +2 leather armor and +1 weapons...but she has a Handy Haversack filled to the brim with something useful for just about any situation that might come up. :)

And the +2 armour and +1 weapon are actually valid in Pathfinder, whereas in Starfinder you HAVE to keep buying the next stuff up or you'll proportionately get far more behind than not getting "the next +1." Not to mention that everyone uses weapons and armour in Starfinder, but not everyone does in Pathfinder. Sure, you've got Weapon Specialization, but those damage dice add a lot of potential (if unreliable) damage, and there's no equivalent for AC. Armour Upgrades, Personal Upgrades, Weapon Fusions, and Augmentations fill the role of Wondrous Items, so it's not like those aren't a thing to buy, either.

Eh... Yes and no?

The difference between the level 11 laser rifle and the level 13 laser rifle is 5d4f to 5d6f - Realistically that is an average of 12-13 vs 17-18 - I don't think you'd really fall that far behind off of that. While you do have to upgrade along and along it isn't super tight. Usually as long as you are within 5 levels you're okay. I mean a level 2 tactical crossbolter does an average of 5-6 the level 7 seeker rifle only does an average of 9.

Meaning a level 7 character using both weapons with weapon specialization is going to be doing 12-13 vs 16. It is only an average difference of 3 damage.


Also, it sounds like we could use some kind of optional Influence mechanic, where you can spend money, time, or other resources to establish position in the setting. Few players may want to spend their in-game time managing a business or handling paperwork in a church, but this doesn't mean they wouldn't want their PC to *own* said business, or *hold rank* in said church. Represent this via a status and a ranking, and then have rules for what various types of Influence do for you. Maybe own a business primarily is a source of revenue, represented as the ability to make purchases of under X credits "free" ( ie, it doesn't add to your WBL directly, but it lightens the burden on it ). Maybe holding rank in a church lets you receive church-affiliated spellcasting for free or discounted, up to X level. Stuff like that.


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Generally I have been using the Wealth by Level as simply build points, that each character has access too. They can reallocate them in between adventures, and lost ones are restored in the next session. In essence you can get your grenades back, for next session.

The primary limitation is they can only replicate things they have designs for. If you get a new fancy peace of gear you need to put it under the scanner for hours, days, months etc based on level and complexity.

However they can recycle captured gear at your normal 10% to get generic credits/or more points to build more gear.

I think of it like Star Trek where they replicate gear for an away mission.


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Am I missing something?

WBL is a factor in the balance of "challenging but not overly lethal encounters", right?

It's a way of saying Characters of level X, should have equipment of WBL = Y to handle encounter CR = Z.

If you don't want to have the equipment, then encounters need to be scaled down, or you better learn to run away.

WBL isn't even a measure of the amount of money you've earned. If I recall, it doesn't include consumables purchased and used in your career. Or anything but equipment you own.

And it's a guideline.


Slyme wrote:

As a life long player of Rogues and Rogue-like characters, I quite often spend more of my available money on utility items, bribes, various consumables, etc.

My current PFS rogue, who is level 9, only has +2 leather armor and +1 weapons...but she has a Handy Haversack filled to the brim with something useful for just about any situation that might come up. :)

How much of those could be replaced with a single Traveller's Any-Tool?

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