Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Society


Starfinder


Starfinder Society

Improvised Adamantine Clubs


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 59 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

We are in a campaign at low level with not much gear or the opportunity to buy gear at least for a little while.

We eventually busted down a door that was reinforced with pieces of adamantine. We don't currently have any tools to work the pieces into proper weapons (we are looking for them however). But the GM ruled we could prize out sections to use as a couple of improvised clubs and one improvised greatclub.

The -4 to hit from improvised will make them worse than our standard weapons unless we run into something with DR or hardness. Then they may well be a godsend. Other than that, we were primarily think of them to be used if we decide we need to bash in a door/wall/ceiling at some point. So these aren't really a major deal, just trying to get things as right as possible. (Yes, I'm more than a bit OCD.)

So I'm working out the stats for them and realized club and greatclub are wooden so you theoretically can't make them out of adamantine. The blunt metal weapons are the hammer, warhammer, and earth breaker. But those are significantly better than the basic clubs. Of course these are improvised weapons so maybe the wrong material doesn't really matter.

I know it is the GM's call. However, in the past, when we come up with something wierd like this, the GM sometimes tells me to see what the guys online think. Then he makes a decision after reading the opinions here. So I'm asking. How do you think they should be handled?


The basic problem is that metal is much heavier than wood. Much, much heavier. Like 10 to 20x heavier depending on the metal or alloy. That is why you don't see many metal clubs. Instead, you see metal pipes, because they are hollow. Most of the material is taken away.

So, you can't really swing that adamantine club unless you have a way to hollow it out.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to bet that these door bits are mostly wood with that reinforcing plate of adamantine at or near one end.


I think they should be improvised adamantine great clubs (which can studded with metal and the like.). Also, every weapon is a rough abstraction, so play it fast and loose. Great clubs are weak for a two handed bludgeoning weapon anyway, so I wouldn't sweat it beyond the issue of how much scrap Adamantine goes for.


Don't overthink it, just run it as an improvised club that can bypass DR as appropriate.


BTW, if you have a Barbarian or high Str melee martial, these things might be good for sunder attempts (-4 at to ignore hardness less than 20? Sold!)


Anonymous Warrior wrote:
I think they should be improvised adamantine great clubs (which can studded with metal and the like.).

But studding metal to wood, even crudely, would require tools.

But, I see the point. The GM is just letting them create "generic beating object with adamantine parts", so improvised, adamantine club/greatclub is the fastest & easiest way to go about it.


I would just use the rules of a mace for a metal club.


I'll just point out: clubs are never improvised. You can literally pick a tree branch up off the ground and declare it as a club.


Kool. I will show this to the GM. I presume he will go with club and greatclub stats.
.
.

Anonymous Warrior wrote:
BTW, if you have a Barbarian or high Str melee martial, these things might be good for sunder attempts (-4 at to ignore hardness less than 20? Sold!)

Actually, yes. The one with the greatclub piece is a bloodrager. I will have to remember this possibility. It just might be worthwhile.

.
.
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
I'll just point out: clubs are never improvised. You can literally pick a tree branch up off the ground and declare it as a club.

Yeah but these pieces of the reinforcing from a door. We're kinda assuming they really are shaped all that great for grip and balance like a good branch is.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
I'll just point out: clubs are never improvised. You can literally pick a tree branch up off the ground and declare it as a club.

That is not RAW.

PRD wrote:
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.

Clubs have a thin end that is easy to grip, and a heavy end that is balanced for swinging. A piece of wood is just a piece of wood until you make a Craft check (DC12 for a simple melee weapon) to turn it into a club.

Scarab Sages

Gronk de'Morcaine wrote:
I know it is the GM's call. However, in the past, when we come up with something wierd like this, the GM sometimes tells me to see what the guys online think. Then he makes a decision after reading the opinions here. So I'm asking. How do you think they should be handled?

Rather than clubs, I'd use the Crowbar profile. It already has rules to use it as an improvised weapon and it aids in strength to break things (which is your main purpose here). So I'd treat it as an Adamantine Crowbar. Also not technically legal (since adamantine lacks a cost for tools), but it fits better since crowbars are normally metal.

Since these are "very" improvised, I might give your Crowbars the Fragile Rule (break on natural 1s to attack) despite them being adamantine. Also stresses the idea that these are temporary weapons, and not free cash I'm giving the party to sell as future loot.

Not that it matters for the club, but in addition to the -4 improvised penalty, an improvised weapon also only criticals on a nat 20 and only has a 2x multiplier.


John Mechalas wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
I'll just point out: clubs are never improvised. You can literally pick a tree branch up off the ground and declare it as a club.

That is not RAW.

PRD wrote:
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.
Clubs have a thin end that is easy to grip, and a heavy end that is balanced for swinging. A piece of wood is just a piece of wood until you make a Craft check (DC12 for a simple melee weapon) to turn it into a club.
RAW wrote:
It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree.

Clubs stand at the intersection of manufactured and improvised weapons. They can be used as either based solely upon the user's stated intent on any given round.

Why is this? Because clubs are defined in a way that allows non-manufactured, randomly obtained items to be used as clubs.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:


RAW wrote:
It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree.

Clubs stand at the intersection of manufactured and improvised weapons. They can be used as either based solely upon the user's stated intent on any given round.

Why is this? Because clubs are defined in a way that allows non-manufactured, randomly obtained items to be used as clubs.

That is a house rule, not RAW. The quote you give describes the makeup of the club, but it doesn't say that anything can literally be a club just because you declare it so. The rule on improvised weapons is very clear: "objects not crafted to be weapons".

"Crafted" has a specific definition in the game, and for a club with a value of 0, it's a DC12 craft check (e.g., you have to pick the right tree branch, and trim it down to the right size and weight).


John Mechalas wrote:
"Crafted" has a specific definition in the game, and for a club with a value of 0, it's a DC12 craft check (e.g., you have to pick the right tree branch, and trim it down to the right size and weight).

But if it has a value of zero, that Craft check takes zero time, so it's still true that you can pick up any branch and have a club.


Tsotate wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:
"Crafted" has a specific definition in the game, and for a club with a value of 0, it's a DC12 craft check (e.g., you have to pick the right tree branch, and trim it down to the right size and weight).
But if it has a value of zero, that Craft check takes zero time, so it's still true that you can pick up any branch and have a club.

Unless it is made from adamantine, in which case it has a value of 3000 gp, and by the Craft skill rules will probably take you years to make just one.


John Mechalas wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:


RAW wrote:
It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree.

Clubs stand at the intersection of manufactured and improvised weapons. They can be used as either based solely upon the user's stated intent on any given round.

Why is this? Because clubs are defined in a way that allows non-manufactured, randomly obtained items to be used as clubs.

That is a house rule, not RAW. The quote you give describes the makeup of the club, but it doesn't say that anything can literally be a club just because you declare it so. The rule on improvised weapons is very clear: "objects not crafted to be weapons".

"Crafted" has a specific definition in the game, and for a club with a value of 0, it's a DC12 craft check (e.g., you have to pick the right tree branch, and trim it down to the right size and weight).

I already quoted the RAW that allows me to pick up a random tree branch and declare it is a club.


Tsotate wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:
"Crafted" has a specific definition in the game, and for a club with a value of 0, it's a DC12 craft check (e.g., you have to pick the right tree branch, and trim it down to the right size and weight).
But if it has a value of zero, that Craft check takes zero time, so it's still true that you can pick up any branch and have a club.

There is nothing in the RAW defining clubs that requires a craft check.

With or without a time requirement.

*Greatclub = 5gp and includes tree branches in the description. You really should verify your data before posting.


Great Club wrote:


This larger, bulkier version of the common club is...
Club wrote:
This weapon is usually just a shaped piece of wood

Some clubs are branches, not all branches are clubs.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Great Club wrote:


This larger, bulkier version of the common club is...
Club wrote:
This weapon is usually just a shaped piece of wood
Some clubs are branches, not all branches are clubs.

Usually =/= always.

Tree branches are not shaped, they are grown, typically without human intervention.

The list of items usable as clubs is open-ended and includes non-manufactured items as examples.

To go further down the rabbit hole, the difference between a club and greatclub is a matter of perception and user.

A human can hand a club to a gnome and it becomes a greatclub (and gains 5gp in value while dealing increased damage), conversely, a human can hand a greatclub to an ogre and it becomes a standard club (losing value and dealing less damage).

Add in the rules for inappropriately sized weapons and a human can decide that the club he is holding is actually small greatclub, suddenly dealing extra damage with a -2 to-hit penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon.

*The club may be one of the simplest (i.e. most primitive) weapons in the game, but the full scope of rules interactions are some of the most complex.


Which is more likely? That the club is some super-special weapon that has a multitude of unwritten (and unimplied) rules of its use? Or that the club follows all the same rules as every other weapon?

Volkard is making crap up. A club is a club. It never becomes a greatclub, regardless of who wields it. It can be an improvised weapon. Te cost does not vary depending on who holds it, or what they want to call it. The rules make absolutely no exception when it comes to clubs - they function the exact same as all other weapons.

A human-sized greatclub does not become an ogre-sized club in the hands of an ogre. (In 3.0 D&D, I believe it did. And as an optional rule in 3.5. But not in the actual rules of3.5 or Pathfinder).


Tsotate wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:
"Crafted" has a specific definition in the game, and for a club with a value of 0, it's a DC12 craft check (e.g., you have to pick the right tree branch, and trim it down to the right size and weight).
But if it has a value of zero, that Craft check takes zero time, so it's still true that you can pick up any branch and have a club.

The value of 0 just means it costs no money to equip your character with it, and you can't sell it for money. So, if you are in a town with a shop of some sort, you can get a club for 0 gp.

If you are in the field, it's a Craft check. The value of zero just affects how many successful Craft checks you need to make. Progress is measured in sp, and the amount of progress is determined by your result x DC. So, to reach a value of 0 sp, you only need to succeed on a single check. Crafting takes 1 week according to the rules, but you can also choose to measure progress daily.

So to make a club of 0 gp value, you just need a single DC12 Craft check, and the crafting takes 1 day.

Your GM can very reasonably house rule the time to less than 8 hours, but by RAW, it is 1 day and a DC12 Craft check.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
I already quoted the RAW that allows me to pick up a random tree branch and declare it is a club.

No, you didn't. You think you did, but you didn't. You quoted the description of a greatclub, which has a value of 5gp, stated right in the info block that you took the description from:

PRD wrote:

Greatclub

Price 5 gp
Type martial

This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can't wield it with one hand. It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree. Like simple clubs, greatclubs have many names, such as cudgels, bludgeons, shillelaghs, and more.

Sorry, but what you are saying is not only not RAW, it is outright contradicted by RAW. A greatclub costs 5 gp, and you can't just pick up a tree branch and declare it one without a Craft check.

There's no reason to believe that a club has special, unwritten rules that make it different from other weapons.

Scarab Sages

Agree that craft checks are required to make clubs and greatclubs. That said, Craft can be attempted untrained and the DC 12 should be obtainable for any but the stupidest of characters (INT based). Masterwork tools grant a +2 circumstance bonus to this check. So out of combat, most PCs and NPCs should be able to take 10 and complete a club without any formal training. INT less than 14 will require masterwook tools (or other bonuses).

Regarding days required, that one is up to the GM regarding crafted items with no gold cost. I don't think the daily requirement makes as much sense with no gold cost. I'd be inclined to allow a PC to just declare that a branch was a club (out of combat), provided they could pass the craft check (and that the branch in question was suitable as a club). Could take longer if they needed to adjust the branch to fit their needs or if the branch just wasn't suited to be used as a club (like if it was rotten or not actually a branch...instead part of a disguised creature.). Though if they wanted the bonus for using masterwork tools, they would need to use the tools...


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Rather than clubs, I'd use the Crowbar profile. It already has rules to use it as an improvised weapon and it aids in strength to break things (which is your main purpose here). So I'd treat it as an Adamantine Crowbar. Also not technically legal (since adamantine lacks a cost for tools), but it fits better since crowbars are normally metal.

There is a published Adamantine Crowbar. I won't spoiler the source, but it's treated as a crowbar that bypasses hardness < 20 and DR/Adamantine*.

* The wording in the source is poor and can be interpreted much more broadly, but really shouldn't be.

Scarab Sages

GinoA wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Rather than clubs, I'd use the Crowbar profile. It already has rules to use it as an improvised weapon and it aids in strength to break things (which is your main purpose here). So I'd treat it as an Adamantine Crowbar. Also not technically legal (since adamantine lacks a cost for tools), but it fits better since crowbars are normally metal.

There is a published Adamantine Crowbar. I won't spoiler the source, but it's treated as a crowbar that bypasses hardness < 20 and DR/Adamantine*.

* The wording in the source is poor and can be interpreted much more broadly, but really shouldn't be.

I recalled one, but then couldn't find it when I posted, so I listed it as not legal. And there's no spoiler in stating where something is found, that's called sourcing. As is, you're making it hard for people reading the thread to purchase the product containing these rules.


John Mechalas wrote:
Tsotate wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:
"Crafted" has a specific definition in the game, and for a club with a value of 0, it's a DC12 craft check (e.g., you have to pick the right tree branch, and trim it down to the right size and weight).
But if it has a value of zero, that Craft check takes zero time, so it's still true that you can pick up any branch and have a club.

The value of 0 just means it costs no money to equip your character with it, and you can't sell it for money. So, if you are in a town with a shop of some sort, you can get a club for 0 gp.

If you are in the field, it's a Craft check. The value of zero just affects how many successful Craft checks you need to make. Progress is measured in sp, and the amount of progress is determined by your result x DC. So, to reach a value of 0 sp, you only need to succeed on a single check. Crafting takes 1 week according to the rules, but you can also choose to measure progress daily.

So to make a club of 0 gp value, you just need a single DC12 Craft check, and the crafting takes 1 day.

Your GM can very reasonably house rule the time to less than 8 hours, but by RAW, it is 1 day and a DC12 Craft check.

If you look under the unchained craft rules, it lists "Manufactured clubs" as having a DC 5 to make. 'non-manufactured clubs' have no DC, as you aren't manufacturing them... It's pretty clear to see the intent there even if you are using the normal craft rules: if you aren't crafting an item, there isn't a roll.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
GinoA wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Rather than clubs, I'd use the Crowbar profile. It already has rules to use it as an improvised weapon and it aids in strength to break things (which is your main purpose here). So I'd treat it as an Adamantine Crowbar. Also not technically legal (since adamantine lacks a cost for tools), but it fits better since crowbars are normally metal.

There is a published Adamantine Crowbar. I won't spoiler the source, but it's treated as a crowbar that bypasses hardness < 20 and DR/Adamantine*.

* The wording in the source is poor and can be interpreted much more broadly, but really shouldn't be.

I recalled one, but then couldn't find it when I posted, so I listed it as not legal. And there's no spoiler in stating where something is found, that's called sourcing. As is, you're making it hard for people reading the thread to purchase the product containing these rules.

The only one I know of is a 3rd party, and 3.5, product. "Planer Metals, version 3.5E" by Ken Lipka Based on the 3E system by Ken Lipka, Rick Coen, and Josh Rintamaki.


Jeraa wrote:
Which is more likely? That the club is some super-special weapon that has a multitude of unwritten (and unimplied) rules of its use? Or that the club follows all the same rules as every other weapon?
Everything I have stated is drawn directly from RAW

Lets start with the distinction between a club and greatclub.

Greatclub wrote:
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.

A greatclub is a club that is too large to wielded in one hand.

The ability to wield something in one hand is entirely dependent on size of the weapon relative to the size of the user.

Quote:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

With this bit of RAW, a clubs categorization is dependent on effort required to use. If the tree branch can be used one-handed it is a club, if it requires two hands it is a greatclub. How the tree branch is categorized is entirely dependent on the user, and changing the size category of the user changes the tree branches classification.

This is further reinforced by the rules on weapon sizes:

Quote:
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Note: tree branches, which are explicitly listed under clubs, are not designed. They are naturally occurring objects.

Moving on to inappropriately sized weapons, we see that an item of a different than the user can be wielded, for a modest to-hit penalty.

Quote:
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

If a given tree branch is a greatclub for a small sized creature, a medium sized creature can choose to use this greatclub at a -2 to-hit penalty.

The classification of clubs, by RAW, is both a function of size relative to the user and a function of how the user wields the club.

Some of these rules are in place intentionally, like including non-manufactured items in the rules for clubs. That definition had to be included in RAW for thematic reasons. There are primitive creature in the core rules that do use tree branches and other naturally occurring objects as clubs and greatclubs.

Other parts are simply a result of unanticipated rules interactions with the unusually broad set of definitions used for clubs and greatclubs. Definitions that have to be broad to cover the virtual lexicon of names given to the nearly endless array of items used to bash people over the past 400,000 years.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
If you look under the unchained craft rules, it lists "Manufactured clubs" as having a DC 5 to make. 'non-manufactured clubs' have no DC, as you aren't manufacturing them... It's pretty clear to see the intent there even if you are using the normal craft rules: if you aren't crafting an item, there isn't a roll.

Your refering to the "Alternate Crafting" rules from Pathfinder Unchained? Those are as optional as the use of piecemeal armor or words of power.

As for your assumption that manufactured clubs have a DC so non-manufactured ones don't require a roll, that is not up to the player. If you aren't making a craft check, you aren't crafting the item, you are finding the item. The craft skill is how a Player creates things within the GM's world. Sure, the PC could do a perception check for clubs laying on the ground, regardless of where they are, and if the GM is inclined, they could grant you a free club. That said, the GM is hardly obligated to provide "non-manufactured" weapons.

Player "I do a perception check for clubs lying on the ground."

GM "You don't find any clubs lying on the ground. You do find suitable raw materials to craft a Spruce Club. These materials could also be used as an improvised weapon."

Additionally, Clubs having no listed cost means that clubs cannot be bought in stores, just as they no resale value when sold to stores. You could hire an NPC to make one, but it would have cost then (labor costs). Masterwork Clubs would definitely be sold in stores.


John Mechalas wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
I already quoted the RAW that allows me to pick up a random tree branch and declare it is a club.

No, you didn't. You think you did, but you didn't. You quoted the description of a greatclub, which has a value of 5gp, stated right in the info block that you took the description from:

PRD wrote:

Greatclub

Price 5 gp
Type martial

This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can't wield it with one hand. It may be ornate and carved, reinforced with metal, or a simple branch from a tree. Like simple clubs, greatclubs have many names, such as cudgels, bludgeons, shillelaghs, and more.

Sorry, but what you are saying is not only not RAW, it is outright contradicted by RAW. A greatclub costs 5 gp, and you can't just pick up a tree branch and declare it one without a Craft check.

There's no reason to believe that a club has special, unwritten rules that make it different from other weapons.

Emphasis mine.

A simple tree branch: It can be obtained from any tree.

Furthermore, and I notated this in my earlier post, the difference between a club and a greatclub, as defined if the first paragraph of the text you quoted, is size relative the user. I hand a club (0 gp value) to a gnome, it becomes a greatclub (5 gp value) by virtue of the fact that he requires two hands to wield it.

For humans, you find a branch appropriate for one-handed use by an ogre (for whom it is a 0 gp club) and use it two-handed, making it a greatclub.

The RAW supporting my position is contained in the very paragraph you quoted. You just have to read the entire paragraph instead of stopping at the part you want. Enforce a price on tree branches, you remove all constraints on WBL as any modest size wood gains a net worth of millions of gp, given the value of tree branches changes depending on size relative to who is holding/selling the branch.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:


Player "I do a perception check for tree branches."

FTFY

I don't particularly care if they are on the ground or still attached to the tree.

Scarab Sages

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Emphasis mine.

A simple tree branch: It can be obtained from any tree.

Enforce a price on tree branches, you remove all constraints on WBL as any modest size wood gains a net worth of millions of gp.

Furthermore, and I notated this in my earlier post, the difference between a club and a greatclub, as defined if the first paragraph of the text you quoted, is size relative the user. I hand a club (0 gp value) to a gnome, it becomes a greatclub (5 gp value) by virtue of the fact that he requires two hands to wield it.

For humans, you find a branch appropriate for one-handed use by an ogre (for whom it is a 0 gp club) and use it two-handed, making it a greatclub.

Just because a Greatclub could be a simple tree branch doesn't mean that every treebranch can be a greatclub. It is definitely up to the GM.

Additionally, size of weapon doesn't change the type of weapon. An Oversized club is not a greatclub, it is still a club, but now it requires 2 hands (and has a -2 on attack for being oversized). A greatclub is designed to be wielded in two hands and would suffer undersized penalties for being wielded by a larger creature than it is designed. That is definitely the RAW on this subject.

A GM could certainly houserule that an a Medium Club could be a Small Greatclub without any changes, but that is the GM altering the rules as written.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
GinoA wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Rather than clubs, I'd use the Crowbar profile. It already has rules to use it as an improvised weapon and it aids in strength to break things (which is your main purpose here). So I'd treat it as an Adamantine Crowbar. Also not technically legal (since adamantine lacks a cost for tools), but it fits better since crowbars are normally metal.

There is a published Adamantine Crowbar. I won't spoiler the source, but it's treated as a crowbar that bypasses hardness < 20 and DR/Adamantine*.

* The wording in the source is poor and can be interpreted much more broadly, but really shouldn't be.

I recalled one, but then couldn't find it when I posted, so I listed it as not legal. And there's no spoiler in stating where something is found, that's called sourcing. As is, you're making it hard for people reading the thread to purchase the product containing these rules.

It's in a Pathfinder scenario which, like APs, is a poor source for RAW and creates a whole different set of arguments.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
A GM could certainly houserule that an a Medium Club could be a Small Greatclub without any changes, but that is the GM altering the rules as written.

RAW: that is the definition of greatclub, as contained in the very first sentence of the greatclub weapon entry.

Scarab Sages

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
...

Sorry, site cut you off. Try shorter posts if you want to be quoted right. I think I covered most of what you said in my lost post. We're posting as the other types, so they're kinda out of sync. For the stuff not addressed by me previously:

Regarding branches still attached to trees, the issue there is that it becomes a manufactured weapon if you alter it from it's naturally occuring state. Even just ripping a branch off a tree, is manufacturing the club or greatclub in regards to the craft skill. That would require a craft check since you are crafting raw materials (the tree) into a weapon (just a branch).

Finding a club on the ground, as in a discarded branch suitible as a club, would be a non-manufactured weapon.

And if you're in doubt, go look up the definition or the etymology of the word "Manufactured."


Murdock Mudeater wrote:


Regarding branches still attached to trees, the issue there is that it becomes a manufactured weapon if you alter it from it's naturally occuring state. Even just ripping a branch off a tree, is manufacturing the club or greatclub in regards to the craft skill. That would require a craft check since you are crafting raw materials (the tree) into a weapon (just a branch).

Branches stop existing as branches when removed from a tree?

Pray tell, what are they when a girallon rips one off the tree (or simply uproots the tree) without making a craft roll?

Does it cease existing as a tree branch? How should it be defined if it is no longer a tree branch. If it is still a tree branch, it still falls under the list of items usable as clubs.

Scarab Sages

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
A GM could certainly houserule that an a Medium Club could be a Small Greatclub without any changes, but that is the GM altering the rules as written.
RAW: that is the definition of greatclub, as contained in the very first sentence of the greatclub weapon entry.

No, it says the greatclub is a larger, bulkier version of the club which is called a Greatclub. What it does not say, is that the greatclub is a an oversized club. Instead, if you look at the weapon rules for oversized and undersized weapons, you'll see where the rules cover this.

Understand that the size of the weapon is about how big it is, but it's a measure of what size creature it is designed to be wielded by. A medium greatclub is designed to be wielded in two hands by a medium creature. This does not mean that the greatclub is a medium sized object, as that is a different set of rules. A large creature can wield a medium greatclub, but it isn't designed for them and is awkward to wield, confering a -2 penalty on attack for being undersized. This is all explained at the start of the weapon section in the CRB.

And just for clarity, the description for the greatclub isn't wrong, but they're talking about what the weapon looks like. Most weapons, if you hadn't noticed, are really just variations of existing weapons, often varied only in scale, but in pathfinder, they are mechanically indepentent items.

A Dagger is Described as a blade 1ft long. A shortsword is a sword 2ft long. A small shortsword, despite being half the size, is not a medium dagger. They are mechanically different weapons in Pathfinder.


Some observations, one or both sides of this arguement must be wrong, per RAW. Both sides believe the other is the only wrong one. Neither are really laying out new support for their arguements. Although, positively, it is all civil and not flag-bait.

So I am curious, why is energy still being invested in this by the participants? And this is a legit question, no sarcasm.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
A GM could certainly houserule that an a Medium Club could be a Small Greatclub without any changes, but that is the GM altering the rules as written.
RAW: that is the definition of greatclub, as contained in the very first sentence of the greatclub weapon entry.

No, it says the greatclub is a larger, bulkier version of the club which is called a Greatclub. What it does not say, is that the greatclub is a an oversized club. Instead, if you look at the weapon rules for oversized and undersized weapons, you'll see where the rules cover this.

Understand that the size of the weapon is about how big it is, but it's a measure of what size creature it is designed to be wielded by. A medium greatclub is designed to be wielded in two hands by a medium creature. This does not mean that the greatclub is a medium sized object, as that is a different set of rules. A large creature can wield a medium greatclub, but it isn't designed for them and is awkward to wield, confering a -2 penalty on attack for being undersized. This is all explained at the start of the weapon section in the CRB.

And just for clarity, the description for the greatclub isn't wrong, but they're talking about what the weapon looks like. Most weapons, if you hadn't noticed, are really just variations of existing weapons, often varied only in scale, but in pathfinder, they are mechanically indepentent items.

A Dagger is Described as a blade 1ft long. A shortsword is a sword 2ft long. A small shortsword, despite being half the size, is not a medium dagger. They are mechanically different weapons in Pathfinder.

in paraphrasing you removed a key part of the definition, the part you disagree with.

Quote:
version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand

Greatclubs are, literally, defined as clubs that are too heavy to wield in one hand.

That definition is what allows the club to be reclassified based on the size of the user relative to the club.

Scarab Sages

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:


Regarding branches still attached to trees, the issue there is that it becomes a manufactured weapon if you alter it from it's naturally occuring state. Even just ripping a branch off a tree, is manufacturing the club or greatclub in regards to the craft skill. That would require a craft check since you are crafting raw materials (the tree) into a weapon (just a branch).

Branches stop existing as branches when removed from a tree?

Pray tell, what are they when a girallon rips one off the tree (or simply uproots the tree) without making a craft roll?

Does it cease existing as a tree branch? How should it be defined if it is no longer a tree branch. If it is still a tree branch, it still falls under the list of items usable as clubs.

No, you require a craft check when you try to create something from something else. You have a tree, or even just a bigger branch, and you alter it to become your club. That's a craft check. Cutting or tearing the branches off a tree, for example, is a craft check, if you want those branches to count as clubs.

If the GM isn't rolling for NPCs, that's up to the GM. And it really doesn't matter until the PCs interact with it (like the perception check to find clubs on the ground). As a general rule, the GM should not be defining things that the PCs aren't interacting with or otherwise aware of, since it bogs down the play and present unreasonable strain on the GM.

If, instead, you just find a complete club, on the ground, obviously you don't need a craft check (unless you want to turn it into something else).

And again, just because a club can be a tree branch doesn't mean that every tree branch is a club. Some are just branches. If a Girallon rips off a tree branch and discards it on the ground, it is just wood. If they craft it into a weapon, it becomes a weapon. That's how it works in pathfinder.


OK, really simple on why a great club for your human is not a normal club for an ogre:
GRIP SIZE.
The ogre's hands are just too big to get a solid grip on something designed for human hands (and vice versa). If you want to go with the found clubs, the ogre and the human are going to pick out different branches or perhaps different sections of the same branch. Neither is going to pick out a piece that is poorly sized or balanced if they have a choice. If they actually have no choice, then the improvised weapon penalties are a good way to simulate the fact that the weapon is clumsy for combat. Also, you have a feat for dealing with people experienced in using such clumsy weapons.

I would say that for these adamantine "braces" calling them an improvised weapon is perfectly acceptable. Comparing them to a carefully chosen found club is not.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Your refering to the "Alternate Crafting" rules from Pathfinder Unchained? Those are as optional as the use of piecemeal armor or words of power.

Optional but clearly shows intent. There is no indication that there is a difference in intent between the option and base systems.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
As for your assumption that manufactured clubs have a DC so non-manufactured ones don't require a roll, that is not up to the player.

Not up to the player but the system. A non-manufactured item, by definition, isn't crafted: as such, there could be no craft check as it isn't crafted. A DM can make up any rule they want to alter those rules though.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
That said, the GM is hardly obligated to provide "non-manufactured" weapons.

By the same token, he isn't obligated to go out of his way to deny access to "non-manufactured" weapons in the appropriate environment.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Player "I do a perception check for clubs lying on the ground."

Most likely you'd never find one sitting on the ground. It's more like "can I find something that can be used as a club": "You could break off that statues arm or break off the sconce." If we go by your "craft a Spruce Club", you're sitting there for a full day's work to 'craft' that club which is incompatible with non-manufactured or "a simple branch from a tree".

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Cutting or tearing the branches off a tree, for example, is a craft check, if you want those branches to count as clubs.

Core book: "Action: Does not apply. Craft checks are made by the day or week (see above)." If you require a check to cut/tear off a limb, that check take 1 entire full day to do... That PC is going to look darn silly pulling on that branch before it comes off.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Player "I do a perception check for clubs lying on the ground."
Most likely you'd never find one sitting on the ground. It's more like "can I find something that can be used as a club": "You could break off that statues arm or break off the sconce." If we go by your "craft a Spruce Club", you're sitting there for a full day's work to 'craft' that club which is incompatible with non-manufactured or "a simple branch from a tree".

Up to the GM, I suppose. Sounds like you're crafting a club from a statue or sconce. I would treat those as improvised weapons if you didn't craft them. Non-manufactured weapons are improvised. Though I do think that some "found" weapons do exist which are manufactured in mechanics, but aren't actually manufactured by anyone. One of those game mechanics things.

As mentioned before, I would not require a full day for a 0 GP item. I don't think the timetables for crafting are intended to reflect 0GP projects. I think ripping off the tree branch or breaking off a statue's arm (out of combat) is fine for a craft check to make a 0gp club. It wouldn't require an entire day unless you wanted it to look good (or if the PC could pass the check without taking 10 or 20 due to their low INT and Craft skill).

And, in theory, a PC can half the required time by adding 10 to the DC of any craft check. So even with an assumed 8-hour work day, you could knock it to a 4 hour half day with a DC 22 craft check. Unclear if they intend PCs be able to further half the require time by stacking +10s to the DC, but as written I don't think they can be stacked. Personally, I think this is far too long for a 0GP project.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Up to the GM, I suppose. Sounds like you're crafting a club from a statue or sconce.

No possible, as crafting isn't an action. At best, you're doing an active search for a club, pulling/cutting off a branch, not crafting.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
I would treat those as improvised weapons if you didn't craft them.

You could, but you'd make a world where there was almost NO clubs. Think about it: who's spending an entire day to make a worthless item [0gp]?

Non-manufactured weapons are improvised.

Not true. Read rods for instance: "Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs because of their hardy construction." they weren't MADE as a weapon and didn't use craft weapon but are none the less a light mace or a club. Things can be a weapon without being crafted as one.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Though I do think that some "found" weapons do exist which are manufactured in mechanics, but aren't actually manufactured by anyone. One of those game mechanics things.

There is no functional difference between a manufactured item that functions as a weapon even though it wasn't created as one and an item that wasn't created and functions as a weapon: neither one was created as a weapon but works as one.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
As mentioned before, I would not require a full day for a 0 GP item.

We're in the rules question section and you jumped right into house rules here. As I noted, ALL craft checks are non actions that take a minimum of 1 day to do.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
I don't think the timetables for crafting are intended to reflect 0GP projects.

I don't think crafting is meant to cover 0gp objects AT ALL. Why stop at the timetable?

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
I think ripping off the tree branch or breaking off a statue's arm (out of combat) is fine for a craft check to make a 0gp club.

The rules disagree.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
And, in theory, a PC can half the required time by adding 10 to the DC of any craft check. So even with an assumed 8-hour work day, you could knock it to a 4 hour half day with a DC 22 craft check. Unclear if they intend PCs be able to further half the require time by stacking +10s to the DC, but as written I don't think they can be stacked. Personally, I think this is far too long for a 0GP project.

That doesn't change the minimum times for a check: "Craft checks are made by the day or week (see above)." Nothing in speeding up +10 section says it overrided the action type.

Scarab Sages

Are you making these posts really long so I can't quote them...?

For starters, the value of the Club vs the improvised club is the -4 to attack with improvised weapons. And no, there's no reason anyone in the pathfinder setting would be making clubs to sell due to the pathfinder stance that they have no value or cost. People would still make clubs, they just wouldn't make them to sell.

If a character is not proficent with clubs and has no ability to ignore the improvised penalty, then there really is no different between an imrovised club and a manufactured club. The rules are exactly the same in practice.

And the rules do not disagree with requiring craft checks to make weapons. Shorting the time required, other than that +10 halving, is how I would handle it personally, not what the rules say.

I don't think requiring a craft check is unreasonable, especially for a DC 12 craft attempt which can be attempted untrained and has no consequence for failure. Any PC should be able to do this unless they really dumped INT.

And yes, the GM could decide that every found improvised club is a manufactured club. Totally up to the GM. Though in doing so, you nerf player builds that rely on having improvised weapons.

Regarding the difference between weapons and manufactured weapons, there are differences in the rules. A natural attack is a weapon, but not a manufactured weapon. Most rules that reference manufactured weapons will use it to distinguish between natural attacks/unarmed strikes and held/wielded weapons that are not part of your body. Considering the club to be not manufactured will alter how some rules interact.

Anyway, I'm done with one. If your still not satified, maybe someone else can explain it.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:


Regarding branches still attached to trees, the issue there is that it becomes a manufactured weapon if you alter it from it's naturally occuring state. Even just ripping a branch off a tree, is manufacturing the club or greatclub in regards to the craft skill. That would require a craft check since you are crafting raw materials (the tree) into a weapon (just a branch).

Branches stop existing as branches when removed from a tree?

Pray tell, what are they when a girallon rips one off the tree (or simply uproots the tree) without making a craft roll?

Does it cease existing as a tree branch? How should it be defined if it is no longer a tree branch. If it is still a tree branch, it still falls under the list of items usable as clubs.

No, you require a craft check when you try to create something from something else. You have a tree, or even just a bigger branch, and you alter it to become your club. That's a craft check. Cutting or tearing the branches off a tree, for example, is a craft check, if you want those branches to count as clubs.

I'm not altering it from being a tree branch to being a club.

It was, is, and will remain a tree branch.

The rules for clubs include tree branches.


1. Great club =/= club
2. Club =/= branch
3. Great club can = branch


Does ANY tree branch, as is, count as a standard club?


Daw wrote:
Does ANY tree branch, as is, count as a standard club?

RAW, nope, never.


Seriously....this is a perfect example of the internet.

20-odd posts arguing about what constitutes a club.

1 to 50 of 59 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Improvised Adamantine Clubs All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.