Can a corpse be identified as a clone?

[Canadian Bakka]

To give a bit of explanation here, as part of an attempt to gain access into a rival organization, the PCs decide on the following:

1. Clone one of the party members who has a listed bounty by the rival organization. Let's call this party member Alice.

2. Modify and remove select memories of another party member (one that the rival organization does not know about beforehand) so that individual truly believe that they want to join the rival organization's inner circle and that they never have met the other PCs before. Let's call this party member Bob.

3. Modify and remove select memories of Bob again so he truly believes that he tracked down, fought, and defeated Alice, killing her in the process.

4. Arrange for Alice's clone to have the very wounds that Bob believes he inflicted on Alice (best if Bob actually inflicts said wounds - a real battle can be done to help support the false memories implanted into Bob afterwards).

5. Bob takes Alice's clone (after the 2d4 months period of growing the clone) to the rival organization to gain admission into the organization and since he believes in his own memories that he wants to join the inner circle, he will work towards gaining their trust and learning what he can.

Having said all that, I come back to the question posted in the thread title: can a corpse be identified as a clone? Is there a way (whether it be using skills or via magic) for someone to figure out that a clone is not the original body and that the original is still alive?

I tried looking earlier for any additional information about the clone spell but didn't find quite what I was looking for. Thank you in advance to everyone who replies for any clarification/answers here.

CB

[darth_borehd]

I'm not able to look it up right this second, but I think clones melt away when killed.

[David knott 242]

darth_borehd wrote:

I'm not able to look it up right this second, but I think clones melt away when killed.

That would be what the Simulacrum spell does.

A Clone spell creates a normal body.

[ohako]

How exactly are you going to get Bob back into the fold again? This seems like not so much a way of getting Bob in as a spy, and more making Bob join the bad guys.

Something tells me that if this is going to work, you're going to have to modify the memory of the Alice clone before you kill it to avoid the whole plan being wrecked by speak with dead.

Unless there's a secret chest spell for brains or something...

[Canadian Bakka]

Bob's memories are being restored at a later date (there are a few ways of achieving this, including sequester thoughts, but for the purposes of the adventure that our DM is running, a modified and one-time use only thought bottle was introduced; his idea, not the players).

Alice's clone only needs to have the memories about the plan erased beforehand (there are spells and psionic powers that can accomplish this), but speak with dead should fail since there is no soul for the spell to interact with as the original Alice is still alive.

CB

Edit: the sequester thoughts spell is from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide and the thought bottle is a 3.5 magic item (Complete Scoundrel, I think).

[David knott 242]

Canadian Bakka wrote:

Alice's clone only needs to have the memories about the plan erased beforehand (there are spells and psionic powers that can accomplish this), but speak with dead should fail since there is no soul for the spell to interact with as the original Alice is still alive.

Actually, the Clone spell itself should fail if Alice is still alive.

[Canadian Bakka]

The clone spell doesn't fail if Alice is still alive. It activates afterwards when Alice is dead (otherwise, it remains inert as a soulless corpse). Otherwise, what is the point of the clone spell as a back-up for the spellcaster?

CB

[Volkard Abendroth]

The Clone spell requires that you have a means to prevent the clone from rotting if the spell completes prior to the creator's death.

Some form of stasis cast immediately prior to completion is usually the preferred means.

[Canadian Bakka]

Or the more common gentle repose spell. ;)

CB

[David knott 242]

It fails in the sense that the clone never comes to life, as this whole scheme seems to require.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Canadian Bakka wrote:

Or the more common gentle repose spell. ;)

CB

Spell durations are important when you may want something to endure for years/decades/millennium without constant maintenance.

There are Runelords that still have viable clones 10,000 years after Earthfall.

[Canadian Bakka]

Whether or not the clone actually becomes alive is not relevant for this purpose because the spell creates an exact body duplicate of the original (which decomposes like a normal dead body if not tended to) at the time the spell is complete (which grows the body slowly in 2d4 months). The duration of the spell is instantaneous. The clone remains after the completion of the spell - for all intended purposes, it is an inert soulless bit of flesh (which is pretty much what a normal dead body is in the first place).

We don't need the clone body to be alive after the spell is done, we just need the clone body to be indistinguishable from the original body to mundane and magical examination. That is the question I am trying to get an answer to: can someone identify a corpse as a clone?

CB

Edit: fixed a grammatical error and clarified the first sentence in the second paragraph.

[Canadian Bakka]

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Canadian Bakka wrote:

Or the more common gentle repose spell. ;)

CB

Spell durations are important when you may want something to endure for years/decades/millennium without constant maintenance.

There are Runelords that still have viable clones 10,000 years after Earthfall.

Certainly, if the pcs' plan's schedule required it to last that long. ;) Fortunately for the pcs, the schedule is no more than a few days - it is important for the body to decompose naturally afterwards like a normal body would. :)

CB

[Volkard Abendroth]

No.

The clone is an exact duplicate of the original, in every detail.

[Pizza Lord]

It should work, in that a clone probably greatly resembles the original. While it creates a duplicate, it's a GM call whether this includes scars, tattoos, or callouses (I would say it does, at least the ones at the time of cloning, though maybe magical tattoos probably not.)

Otherwise, magical divinations may or may not help. Obviously if the rival gang casts a divination that tries to scry or divine the location of Alice then they will realize they're elsewhere. A spell of protection from such things on the original will help stop this. A speak with dead spell cast on the clone body will fail, since it was never alive, and while that may be due to the corpse's save it may be suspicious.

Unless the clone actually was brought to life and animated by the spirit, then it would have the memories of dying to Bob, but that won't likely work, since then the duplicate actually is Alice's corpse and the original remains become inert and useless... so you'd have to be planning another route to return Alice to life (in which case, may as well just have used the original body anyway.)

So the best use is to just grow the clone, then do your memory stuff on Bob... and have him kill Alice, which will leave her body behind (inert and unraisable) and she goes into the clone

[Murdock Mudeater]

Canadian Bakka wrote:

Having said all that, I come back to the question posted in the thread title: can a corpse be identified as a clone? Is there a way (whether it be using skills or via magic) for someone to figure out that a clone is not the original body and that the original is still alive?

Yes, but it isn't simple. Basically, a good number of spells which function based on the soul being loosely attached to the body would not work. You'd then follow this up divination to determine why they don't work and that would reveal it.

For example, a cleric with Raise Dead followed by Augury. The cleric would attempt to raise the dead only to have it fail. Then they'd use Augury to ask why the casting failed. Might also come up with Speak With Dead.

Though, of course, the easiest way to ID clones is to have two of them. Once you start finding lots of identical corpses their credibility as a fake death goes down a lot. Encountering a PC or NPC that is certain of their death, would also work.

A caster may also be able to use detect magic to find traces of the clone spell on the clone, though that one would be up to the GM and in relation to how they determine when clone takes effect, since it the aura will only likely last for 1d6x10 minutes (d6 days with a very high caster level).

[Canadian Bakka]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Yes, but it isn't simple. Basically, a good number of spells which function based on the soul being loosely attached to the body would not work. You'd then follow this up divination to determine why they don't work and that would reveal it.

For example, a cleric with Raise Dead followed by Augury. The cleric would attempt to raise the dead only to have it fail. Then they'd use Augury to ask why the casting failed. Might also come up with Speak With Dead.

Though, of course, the easiest way to ID clones is to have two of them. Once you start finding lots of identical corpses their credibility as a fake death goes down a lot. Encountering a PC or NPC that is certain of their death, would also work.

A caster may also be able to use detect magic to find traces of the clone spell on the clone, though that one would be up to the GM and in relation to how they determine when clone takes effect, since it the aura will only likely last for 1d6x10 minutes (d6 days with a very high caster level).

Raise dead can easily fail since the most common reason why is that the original soul chooses not to return to life but I do concede that augury could help the opposition determine the failure in raising the body (assuming that the original, and still alive, Alice does not have something equivalent to a mind blank up and running), is that a common tactic to use augury when raise dead (or similar spells) fail? I'm not questioning the validity of using that tactic, just curious as to how common is that approach?

CB

Edit: upon reading what augury does, it cannot give you such information. It just tells you if a given action is good or bad. Maybe you were thinking of the higher level divination spells?

[dragonhunterq]

There may be an argument that you can identify a clone with a DC28 know(arcana) check to identify a spell effect in place. You pick up on small discrepancies in callouses, scars, tattoos etc. Even the best copier can produce copies that are slightly off. Maybe there is a distinctive pattern that learned sages can identify.

Maybe...

[Steelfiredragon]

is it possible to make the clone a puppet????? yes a puppet, but not with the strings and such...

[Claxon]

This seems like an overly complicated plan.

Just use Polymorph Any Object (if you have Clone you have access to PAO) to make yourself look like another humanoid, creating a new identity. I wouldn't even bother with the memory modification s&@&. It's all just too complicated.

[Daw]

Clone Spell wrote:

Clone

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 256 (Amazon)
School necromancy; Level arcanist 8, sorcerer/wizard 8, witch 8
Casting
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (laboratory supplies worth 1,000 gp), F (special laboratory equipment costing 500 gp)
Effect
Range 0 ft.
Effect one clone
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return). The original's physical remains, should they still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life. If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.

To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature's living body. The piece of flesh need not be fresh, but it must be kept from rotting. Once the spell is cast, the duplicate must be grown in a laboratory for 2d4 months.

When the clone is completed, the original's soul enters it immediately, if that creature is already dead. The clone is physically identical to the original and possesses the same personality and memories as the original. In other respects, treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, including its gaining of two permanent negative levels, just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be cloned). If the original creature gained permanent negative levels since the flesh sample was taken, the clone gains these negative levels as well.

The spell duplicates only the original's body and mind, not its equipment. A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh which rots if not preserved.

How are you getting a new soul into the body?

Since the empty body (new or old) is stated to be inert, not dead, I think any of the life sight spell's or abilities will not show it as a corpse.

[Canadian Bakka]

Life sight? That is not a spell I am familiar with. If you are referring to the Life Sight class ability of a necromancer (and similar abilities), it only detects living and undead creatures, it doesn't detect dead bodies.

Likewise, a deathwatch spell only recognizes "dead, fragile, fighting off death, healthy, undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct)". A soulless clone would register as dead (in my opinion) since like other dead bodies it rots away if not preserved after it is grown. The deathwatch spell doesn't care if something was never alive to begin with and can't make that distinction.

There is a reason why the pcs want to keep Alice alive - the rival organization has the habit of re-animating the bodies of their enemies. Alice would really prefer that she does not get re-animated as some horrible abomination and twisted mockery of life.

Polymorp any object has a duration and it leaves a magic aura of transmutation on the transmuted target so it is easily detected. Given enough time, it will be dispelled, and when the rival organization finds out, they will kill poor Bob.

Back to the topic of the thread: it seems that most divinations cannot distinguish the dead clone from the original target, but some divinations like contact other plane might yield some clues with the right questions (depending on who is being consulted, but I feel that unless it is absolutely important, most arcane spellcasters would not cast it to confirm the identity of a dead corpse given the horrible consequences of a failed check, but I am not the DM so he may decide they want to take that risk). Even meticulous match would not notice a difference between the two.

It's not a 100% foolproof plan, but given the numerous obstacles the pcs are facing to even find out the location of the rival organization's HQ on any given day (it's a flying keep that is heavily warded from divinations and teleportations most of the time, and it is capable of moving to other dimensions), this is the best the pcs could come up with, despite not having a single actual wizard on the team (they had to buy scrolls in conjunction with Use Magic Device just to pull this off). Hence why all the complications.

CB

[Murdock Mudeater]

Canadian Bakka wrote:

Raise dead can easily fail since the most common reason why is that the original soul chooses not to return to life but I do concede that augury could help the opposition determine the failure in raising the body (assuming that the original, and still alive, Alice does not have something equivalent to a mind blank up and running), is that a common tactic to use augury when raise dead (or similar spells) fail? I'm not questioning the validity of using that tactic, just curious as to how common is that approach?

CB

Edit: upon reading what augury does, it cannot give you such information. It just tells you if a given action is good or bad. Maybe you were thinking of the higher level divination spells?

Use of Augury (or similar divination) assumes that the GM doesn't just inform the PC why raise dead failed. Really goes back to how this one is role played. Personally, I would inform the character using raise dead that the soul is unwilling to return if that were the case. I would instead inform the PC that the soul cannot be found if the target was alive (or their soul had been trapped somewhere) - This sort of mystery would likely be a plot device, so PCs would consider devoting research as to why they couldn't find the soul.

And there are divination spells, including Augury, which grant a decent idea of what's going on, with the right question asked. The question/intended action would matter. For example, raise dead fails for unknown reasons, so for guesses, there are really only 3 reasons this would happen, 1) unwilling soul, 2) soul is trapped somewhere, 3) soul is currently in a body (as in alive). So for augury, the easiest would be to ask about the validity of asking other questions with higher level divination spells, since augury only goes forward about a half hour. You'd only know that using higher level divination spells would yeild good results or bad results, but that should be enough to not waste your time on higher level divinations.

Could also attempt scrying. That one should provided the PCs have reason to doubt the corpse. If they doubt that the corpse is the person that it is a dead body of, a scry attempt for that person should reveal their current position, rather than the corpse. Up to the GM, but it would be reasonable, should the PC conclude that the clone is the clone spell, that a piece of the clone qualifies as a piece of the caster (since that's how clones are made) for the purposes of scrying.

[Canadian Bakka]

Hm, that's a fairly plausible use of augury. I started doing some research on what are the possible causes that would prevent things like restoring the cloned body to life (since they would be under the initial impression that it is the original body) or re-animation of the body as an undead of some type.

Given that the adventure in question is high level (18+ and it is likely that the bad guys might have mythic tiers; the pcs already know that the bad guys have more artifacts in their flying keep than a Third Edition Forgotten Realms novel), the likelihood of discovery is going to vary. With enough time and if the bad guys have enough of a motivation beyond re-animating the body, they could well discover that the original may be alive.

*sigh*

CB

[Tacticslion]

Or: have good clone-corpse-to-be actually be the original body, but killed in combat (with memories altered; she will restore her own memories after she wakes up due to notes she leaves for herself); slather unguent of timelessness all over that puppy, and (now that the original hero is back alive) animate it as a juju zombie (but make sure to secretly curse it so it loses much of its powers - ostensibly so it wouldn't destroy itself to spite it's masters, but secretly to cover the other curse that prevents it from intentionally acting against the good guys. Then, of course, make a magic item that only targets the corpse with a continuous control undead and command undead effect.

What does this do? It creates an undead (hypothetically preventing most forms of resurrection) that has all of her memories (albeit altered to give strong semblance of truth to the lie) and literally died in combat by the hand of the would-be infiltrator - a would-be infiltrator who now has a fabulous "gift" to hand over to the bad guys as kind of super-proof of sincerity. Oh, and the original hero is alive (and should be under a misdirection or similar effect that targets a nearby dead person who was also killed by infiltrator hero, thus making sure divinations basically get "correct"/expected results.

It's going to be harder to get much tighter a set of alibis/proofs.

[Daw]

Can you make an undead out of a soulless bit of inert flesh?

[Doomed Hero]

Daw wrote:

Can you make an undead out of a soulless bit of inert flesh?

Since it's been established that creating undead doesn't normally effect a body's original soul in any way, I'd say probably.

In the Golarion cosmology, "soulless bit of inert flesh" is exactly what a corpse is.

[Canadian Bakka]

What Doomed Hero said.

From what I understand, you can use the create undead and create greater undead spells on a corpse without any regard to the condition of the original soul since the body is animated by negative energy and does not require an actual soul.

I have to re-check that though in this situation because the setting is the Forgotten Realms (which is similar in a lot of ways to Golarion) and it might work a bit differently.

@Tactislion: I am confused on a few points on what you described, but for now, let's start with the curse on the ju-ju zombie. How does one do that?

CB

[Jurassic Pratt]

If I recall correctly JJ has said that creating undead does indeed tear off bits of souls in Golarion.

Not necessarily the soul of the person whose corpse it is though afaik.

[Tacticslion]

Daw wrote:

Can you make an undead out of a soulless bit of inert flesh?

Create undead says:

Quote:

Target one corpse

That's exactly what a, "soulless piece of inert flesh" is.

But just in case you're curious, you can do it this way, too:

Kill the character.

Pluck a single hair.

Then use cyclic reincarnation on that hair.

Quote:

the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death

Done!

So, now you're left with a corpse and a living person.

And there you go.

The problem with extreme pedantry, though, especially if you try to redefine relatively obvious terms is that it gets much worse much very quickly.

Daw wrote:

Can you make an undead out of a soulless bit of inert flesh?

Doomed Hero wrote:

Since it's been established that creating undead doesn't normally effect a body's original soul in any way, I'd say probably.

In the Golarion cosmology, "soulless bit of inert flesh" is exactly what a corpse is.

Ah. Ninja'd. XD

(That's what I get for having kids!)

[Tacticslion]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

If I recall correctly JJ has said that creating undead does indeed tear off bits of souls in Golarion.

Not necessarily the soul of the person whose corpse it is though afaik.

There is a book talking about undead that implies in-character, that the soul of the person turned undead is eternally trapped and tainted inside the undead shell.

This is not borne out by rules, and creates a ton of internal problems (such as ripping apart solars and other weirdness).

If it just tears random soul-bits and shoves it inside corpses that's... weird for entirely different reasons.

[Jurassic Pratt]

Does it need rules? Seems like it's purely flavor text and helps explain why the create undead spells have the evil descriptor but has 0 actual rules relevance.

I don't really see how it conflicts with anything in Golarion.

Edit: Found one of the quotes

James Jacobs Reddit AMA wrote:

Creating zombies and skeletons and mindless undead actually does. It doesn't use the WHOLE soul. It cuts off a tiny piece and uses it as the seed to corrupt via necromancy to animate the dead body. This might be a fragment of soul left behind after the soul itself left ages ago, or it might be a bit "snipped" off more recently. That's why, in Pathfinder, even mindless undead are evil.

Your game can of course differ, but in the rules and in Golarion, "soul-snipping" is the the assumption.

So it is the cannon for Golarion, but obviously anyone can change that in their own games.

[Tacticslion]

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Does it need rules? Seems like it's purely flavor text and helps explain why the create undead spells have the evil descriptor but has 0 actual rules relevance.

I don't really see how it conflicts with anything in Golarion.

Edit: Found one of the quotes

James Jacobs Reddit AMA wrote:

Creating zombies and skeletons and mindless undead actually does. It doesn't use the WHOLE soul. It cuts off a tiny piece and uses it as the seed to corrupt via necromancy to animate the dead body. This might be a fragment of soul left behind after the soul itself left ages ago, or it might be a bit "snipped" off more recently. That's why, in Pathfinder, even mindless undead are evil.

Your game can of course differ, but in the rules and in Golarion, "soul-snipping" is the the assumption.

So it is the cannon for Golarion, but obviously anyone can change that in their own games.

Thanks!

That does, actually, create really weird elements of esoteric interaction, though, for a lot of reasons that are hard to explain, and get weirder the more you look into it.

Still, good to have an official thought!

[Tacticslion]

Canadian Bakka wrote:

What Doomed Hero said.

From what I understand, you can use the create undead and create greater undead spells on a corpse without any regard to the condition of the original soul since the body is animated by negative energy and does not require an actual soul.

I have to re-check that though in this situation because the setting is the Forgotten Realms (which is similar in a lot of ways to Golarion) and it might work a bit differently.

Mm. In FR it doesn't matter at all. There's nothing even in-character lore notes that could be construed as co-opting the character's soul.

You doing 3.5 stuff, or PF stuff?

Canadian Bakka wrote:

@Tactislion: I am confused on a few points on what you described, but for now, let's start with the curse on the ju-ju zombie. How does one do that?

CB

Bestow Curse and Bestow Curse, Greater.

Quote:

You can also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.

Specifically, use these as basics:

Quote:

> –8 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.

> Each turn, the target has a 25% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no actions.

> Whenever the victim takes damage, he is staggered for 1 round.

> The victim is plagued by cacophonous sounds and strobing lights that only she can hear and see. She is distracted (+5 to Perception DCs), cannot take 10 on skill checks, and must succeed at a concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) to successfully cast spells.

> Anytime the victim picks up or retrieves an object (including drawing a weapon or ammunition), there is a 50% chance that he immediately drops it. If ammunition is dropped, the attack being made is lost. Any remaining attacks in a full attack action may still be attempted.

So, let's step this up a notch.

Quote:

> –8 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks; when using them on self or any of her masters.

> Each turn, the target has a 25% chance to act normally when taking any action to harm self or her masters; otherwise, it takes no actions.

> Whenever the victim takes attempts to damage herself or her masters, she is staggered for 1 round.

> Whenever she attempts to harm herself or her masters,
Tthe victim is plagued by cacophonous sounds and strobing lights that only she can hear and see. She is distracted (+5 to Perception DCs), cannot take 10 on skill checks, and must succeed at a concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) to successfully cast spells.

> Anytime the victim picks up or retrieves an object (including drawing a weapon or ammunition) with intent of using it to hurt herself or her masters, there is a 50% chance that he immediately drops it. If ammunition is dropped, the attack being made is lost. Any remaining attacks in a full attack action may still be attempted.

Note the wording on the careful wording on the curses. Most specifically, "and her masters" - this is incredibly important.

Now, on to cursed items.

This one is... "iffier" by RAW, but it's extremely legit by way of Forgotten Realms, considering the setting is pretty riddled with similar things.

But, basically, it's got several functions:

- basic function: control undead and command undead on the specific undead; secretly, this function only works 10 ft. away from the heroes (barring the infiltrator) cover story: so any allies of the hero don't acquire it and gain control over her; secondary requirement is an embedded thingy technical term into the corpse; this creates the link that allows it to function

- linked thingy function {the undead becomes selfishly possessive of having it}
- - - linked thingy secret function {only functions when within 10 ft. of the heroes}, it switches the "normal" loyalty effects of the amulet over to the heroes' control (they don't need the amulet to work); this effect also comes with a curse that the undead auto-fails the save against it

These are minor variants of the effects listed under the intermittent and drawback features. Specifically, using the "dependent" version of intermittent functioning.

Note that you can intentionally create cursed items. Also, and importantly, you'll want to craft the secret effects with a higher effective CL, which means upping the Spellcraft check, and probably the price.

Even better, though, than just relying on, "Lol: high DCs" (which you should totally work on doing, also, but still) is making the "linked thingy" an intelligent item with the special purpose of helping out the heroes, the secretive property (see the bottom of the page) the same alignment as the wielder, the special ability of a continuous greater magic aura
and misdirection spell of a second, lead-painted "thingy" whose auras detail exactly what the bad guys would want to see. Also a greater magic aura (maybe) on the undead, if you need to hide anything in particular about her.

Now, let's also think about mythic.

Augmented spells don't have any mythic versions of detection in them. The deep understanding ability doesn't automatically let you figure out that an item is cursed (this is probably literally the only time I will ever be happy about that). No other paths or mythic abilities I can find deal with curses outside of immunities to them and slightly-better-methods of removing them.

Also, you're in FR. Do you know if these guys use the Shadow Weave? If so, you're in luck: they'll be suckier at learning your stuff (and ever-worse at it the more powerful/shadow-weave-using they are).

If not, then you should. Yeah, it'll cost you a fraction of your sanity (notably 2 points of wisdom), but ride that puppy whole-hog. The one possible reason not to is if your caster is both totally a literal "good" character and worships Mystra. Otherwise, Shar is likely to let things play out and see where they stand at the end of your adventures before revoking your access; and if your character shows legitimate temptation toward darkness, you can have your cake and eat it, too: she'll probably enjoy stringing you along. I'm going by reviewing her M.O. in literally everything else that I've seen her in. Mind, your GM is the arbiter of things as they are in your FR. Check with him/her first.

Also, bear in mind retraining rules, just in case you get "stuck" without magic at some point.

[Daw]

So, on Golarian you do not want to accompany possible necromancers to ancient battle sites. Your poor soul may be used to animate part of his undead army.

Necromancy stores selling trapped souls, only used by a little old lady from Riddleport to keep her gardener around.

EDIT ADD

Umm TL, yes, there are things in the rules about coopting part of the souls. Anyone turned into undead, including skeletons and zombies cannot be raised or reincarnated until the undead is destroyed. Also, you need to go with a full resurrection to bring you back. This is JJ's line of reasoning, that I agree with.

That said, if your table wants to play it different, that's cool too.

[Tacticslion]

Daw wrote:

Umm TL, yes, there are things in the rules about coopting part of the souls. Anyone turned into undead, including skeletons and zombies cannot be raised or reincarnated until the undead is destroyed. Also, you need to go with a full resurrection to bring you back. This is JJ's line of reasoning, that I agree with.

That said, if your table wants to play it different, that's cool too.

This is dubiously correct, as I noted above.

You can literally raise someone from the dead by several methods - one of which I listed earlier in this thread - and then animate their corpse as undead.

This is demonstrable proof that if it does do "something" to the soul, it does nothing that isn't already done by raising them from the dead, and clearly doesn't actually use anything that the various spells use to bring the dead back to life except, you know, the corpse.

So the whole "grabbing soul bits" thing is... weird. It doesn't mean pretty much anything, and its supposed implications fail whenever it's actually put to legitimate tests in-character.

So, yeah, JJ's word is real. That's how it works in Golarion, because that's literally his job description, "the guy that tells you how things work in Golarion; yes, he's correct" - but it creates really, really weird metaphysical things that don't make sense in-context.

[Jurassic Pratt]

I think you can explain most of it pretty well. Let's take a look.

Let's say you got reincarnated and then some pesky necromancer animated your old corpse. Ouch, you just lost a piece of your soul. But there's no mechanics to that. It causes an issue with your soul being judged and moving on after death though as we know, but I don't see an issue with you being able to continue on living.

Now then, what makes Raise Dead stop working when that piece of soul is stuffed in a zombie? Could be that the soul being damaged makes recalling it more difficult, which is why you need more powerful magic to recall it (Resurrection) unless you kill that undead.

So why is it so bad then?

James Jacobs wrote:

Generally, mindless, after the fact undead only retain a tiny shred of the original soul. Not enough to stop the soul from moving on, but enough that as long as that undead exists, that soul feels slightly less. Kinda like losing a pinky toe. When a mindless undead is destroyed, that fragment is restored to wherever.

Well JJ mentions that depending on the size of the piece ripped off you can have all sorts of effects. A small piece can leave you feeling like you're just not fully there. I imagine a larger piece would only increase that feeling. And feeling like a piece of your being is missing is a pretty nasty thing after all.

Did I miss anything TL?

[Daw]

Well, this is a rules forum. So what follows does not count, though I guess Mr. Jacobs stuff does count some.

I can say, that I have always played it that a soul has to be available for any undead creation. I had never thought of section ing off bits of the soul for efficiency sake. Rather delightfully evil that. Think about it, how many undead do you have to destroy before that soul goes free. But I have also played it that onyx has to be sewn into a zombies mouth. I picked that up from Dave Hargrave, who found it somewhere.

To be fair, there is serious extra Ick factor having it work that way, which a lot of tables don't want.

[Jurassic Pratt]

Well none of what we discussed there was actually rules. Its the flavor of how it works in golarion, but there's no actual mechanics attached to the "soul tearing" bit.

So while JJ does indeed say he's not a rules guy, this isn't rules, and thus is relevant if you play in Golarion :)

Of course, this is in fact the rules forum as you stated and this tangent has probably gone too far. Sorry for sidetracking.

[Magicdealer]

Ignoring the identifying the clone as a clone part, there are a few potential problems here.

First off, regardless of the implanted memories, as soon as Bob wakes up he might go, "What the hell was I thinking! I don't want to help the cult! Oh god, Alice!!!"

Second off, if the corpse doesn't come with the appropriate magical gear, that might raise suspicions.

Third off, with raise dead so prevalent at the levels where you can cast clone, it would probably be trivial to verify whether or not Alice is actually dead.

Fourth off, speak with dead spell.

[Tacticslion]

EDIT: ninja'd!

So, yeah, originally, I'd been trying to stick with RAW, as this was a RAW forum. I kind of got side-tracked somewhere.

Anyway, ninja aside (and in response to JP's post explaining things):

Off Topic!:

Again: how does that interact with, like, anything?

- does that impact morale effects?
- does it impact alignment effects?
- does it impact future raise dead attempts on the non-undead corpses?

If it has no impact, than it really doesn't have an impact.

"Fluff" is all very well and good, but if it doesn't mean anything than it doesn't mean anything.

Again, this is a system that mechanizes drug addiction (and benefits and drawbacks), aging effects (for everything: everything), exactly what happens to a soul after it dies and after its judged, as well as for whether things can alter the ability to raise dead or not - incidentally, all of those things listed above (except drugs) make it impossible for raising effects as well, as do death effects.

Like, I'm fine if you want to say your character is now missing a piece of their soul/life force, but we have rules for that, too, and, incidentally, that's the exact same thing that bringing you back from the dead actually does.

What, among any of those steps, is affected?

Again: it works in Golarion, because James says it does, but it begins getting really weird really fast when you apply in-setting canonical stuff to it.

You can explain it all away, of course, but by the same token I can make this guy is a bright, shining fluffy bunny with dimples of sunlight, but most people wouldn't accept that such a creature is CE, powerless in sunlight, and deals both negative energy damage on a touch and Con drain, much less that it has a +24 Stealth. And they'd be right not too!

But that's an extreme example.

What about a trio of beautiful women, who looked like this, this, and this, but that's going to leave a really weird impression when the mechanics don't match, and most will feel a little cheated if they've proven there's no actual illusions or transmutations or anything.

Or if I link her picture only to explain that you've been blinded by beauty.

And that's the thing. You can certainly give fluff explanations to anything you want.

Heck, that shining dread wraith bunny, or those gorgeous hags, or that hideous wayang-looking nymph: those are cool character ideas and might come about for a host of interesting story reasons.

But they aren't supported by mechanics, and they make things very, very strange, metaphysically, in-character, and out- in whatever game they're introduced.

Same thing with the soul-bits deal.

Yeah, you can definitely explain it away. That's actually a good thing!

That said, the arguments don't hold up within the system, as-written.

I mean, there are any large number of fictional works that I can explain away the flaws within it; doesn't make the flaws less real. I still love those things, though!

And, man, do I! Plot holes don't ruin things nearly so much as people tend to complain about, for me. I mean, they can, but most such complaints are nitpicking. Admitting they exist, however... that's actually quite fine and even healthy.

[Doomed Hero]

There's two ways it could go, and to me the answer is obvious.

1) Clones can't be raised as undead until after they have been inhabited by a soul, and then killed. Until then, they are just soulless meat. To me, this is boring

2) Clones can be animated because before a soul embodies a clone, they are just bodies. To me, his is the more iteresting option from a story perspective.

Frankly, the entier idea of a corpse that has never housed a soul seems like the kind of thing Necromancers drool over. Just imagine the kind of creepy, weird undead that would come from a completely soulless corpse.

Clone is seriously powerful magic. Anyone using that kind of spell as a material component for making an undead creature deserves to have it be extra horrifying.

[Canadian Bakka]

Magicdealer wrote:

Ignoring the identifying the clone as a clone part, there are a few potential problems here.

First off, regardless of the implanted memories, as soon as Bob wakes up he might go, "What the hell was I thinking! I don't want to help the cult! Oh god, Alice!!!"

Second off, if the corpse doesn't come with the appropriate magical gear, that might raise suspicions.

Third off, with raise dead so prevalent at the levels where you can cast clone, it would probably be trivial to verify whether or not Alice is actually dead.

Fourth off, speak with dead spell.

Luckily, the pcs have already dealt with the first two problems beforehand.

1. Bob volunteered for the undercover job and part of his memories that return include him basically talking to himself in front of a mirror, going over why he did it, what's the plan, that Alice is safe, and that the rest of the party will joining up with him once he completes his mission objectives (otherwise, they cannot teleport into where the flying keep is located at that time).

2. Alice agreed to leave behind the items she is most commonly known to use, including a rare magical crown that she normally wears (it's a highly prized item). Luckily, the rival organization, while definitely run by an evil inner circle, complies with the bounty laws of the local kingdom so Bob actually gets to choose if he wants to keep anything Alice's body had (he decided on letting the bad guys identify the items first and then negotiate a fair price for things he doesn't want).

3. Speak with dead is not a problem because it works directly with the corpse, not the soul, and thus its knowledge is limited by the memories of the body. As far as the clone's memories go, it knows that Bob killed her. It has memories of being alive. Plus, it gets a Will save as if it were alive. I think the PCs are safe in regards to this spell. :)

CB

[Canadian Bakka]

As far as whether or not the notion that any form of re-animation takes a piece of the soul and binds it (in the very specific case where the soul is already inhabiting a live body), it does not seem to be supported for Golarion by the actual rules or the majority of such spells' descriptions (at least not that I am aware of; I certainly do not possess an encyclopedic and photographic memory of all of the rules, game mechanics, and spells devised for the game). It is a rather unusual corner case that does not come up often so I suspect it is strongly a case of GM's interpretation/preference. And I am o.k. with that, so long as it is consistent.

For the specific case of this particular scenario that takes place in a different setting (the Forgotten Realms, before the Spellplague), I think the pcs are safe in that creating a type of undead from the dead clone by the bad guys is feasible for the bad guys (and thus not raise more suspicions). Interestingly enough, according to canonical lore of the Forgotten Realms, a well-known villain named Manshoon had multiple clones running around at one point (because they all got activated at the same time, if I recall correctly), and one of those clones was actually a vampire (that is an event that happens in 3.5). So at least there is precedent in that particular game setting.

I am glad that I decided to discuss this issue here because it is an interesting scenario and it was worth getting the feedback from various people. It will be a discussion I will have to share with the GM at the next game session.

By all means, feel free to continue the discussion though, I am keen to hear more thoughts on the matter.

CB

[Tacticslion]

The case of Manshoon is... interesting. No one knows how or why his clones all activated, but something went wrong and they all continuously tried to kill each other until only three were left (one of which was the vampire). Basically, they had three different mind-control methods working for them.

In any event, I strongly - strongly - recommend cloning the "victim" first, then compelling her with as many geas-like effects as you can (that will lead to forcing her to genuinely combat the "infiltrator" - and actually making him kill her in that combat), and then alter her memory, so that she fights him, and leaves him her real killer. Importantly, make sure he is not under any compulsion.

If you're worried about her memory, later, don't be: that's why you give her an intelligent magic item whose only job/special purpose/ability is to restore her memory after the part of the plan is done.

Then, of course, you alter his memory to synch up with the events of combat, and as many real-life parallels as you can, but without letting him know the plan or anything like it.

He takes the corpse, as mentioned, and the plan runs forward.

Now: why should you kill her? So the corpse has actually been killed. Then you put the real on into mind blank.

Commune

- Q: "Is this actually her corpse?"

- A: "Yes."

- Q: "Is she still alive?"

- A: "The answer is complicated." or "The answer is deceptive." or "That answer is unavailable." or something similar.

Note, this is the reason for animating her corpse. There are several issues that come up once she's animated, and turned over to her.

But that's not the only reason you should kill her for real. You need to use modify memory. Notice that it only works on "one living creature" - the clone (until it's inhabited) isn't that, nor is the undead animated thereafter. So it needs to be done first.

That way, the corpse has the altered memories. Conveniently, the corpse' memories can't actually be read, altered, or otherwise manipulated - so you can't use modify memory (or any similar effect) to "put them back", even if you wanted to.

And so on it goes.

There are lots of ways of making things more difficult, and ways around those ways. The more layers of obfuscation and issues you can deliver before-hand, the more likely it will go well for you.

But, yo, for real, ditch the whole clone business after all this and make sure Alice goes in for the alternate plane method of living forever. It's much more reliable and more difficult to undo.

[Kryzbyn]

Use the clone spell. Modify Alice's memory. Have Bob kill her, put her in the clone. Have Bob take Alice's real corpse. Fill the clone Alice in on what's going on after Bob leaves.

I think this abides by the rules, and provides for more drama.

[Tacticslion]

That's basically what I've been suggesting, yeah, but with less words. Well put! XD

[Canadian Bakka]

Yes, this is the revised plan. Will have to see if the DM allows it.

CB

[Kryzbyn]

Probably would want Alice's consent too :P

[Chris Mortika]

I wouldn't use clone. I'd let Bob kill Alice in a straight-forward manner and then cast reincarnate on Alice.

Potential snag: it sounds like y'all are pretty high level. What are you planning to do with Alice's equipment?