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0-Level Spell Metamagic


Rules Questions


Can I use Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection on a cantrip and have it be a still, silent, quickened infinitely usable spell?


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The strict answer is yes, but it this seems like a loaded question to me.

What are you thinking of doing?


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I'm curious too. That is a lot of character resources to throw at being able to cast a 0th level spell twice a round without moving or making noise...


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beside the quicken part. any race (or alt racial ability) that give at will all day sla (like the elven option for at will light spell). can take the adopted trait, pick Geniekin and take minor wishcraft. that let you sla any 0 level spell that a humanoid asked for all day long(and if your a humanoid.like an elf you can do it urself). sla by defenition is silent(beside the wish) and still. not quicken, but then again not limited to your one spell picked. save you a trait and 2 feats at least.

my shenron builds use this to make others 'super-saiyan' (prestigitiation to color their hair and eyes. then breeze aimed upward for that wind effect -"there i made you super powerfull - go fight !" ;)


@FractalLaw I don't know yet, I just picked the first 3 metamagics that came to mind :)


Dot


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By RAW it should work. And given you can do it only at level 15+ (unless you can somehow get Spell Perfection way, way earlier), it shouldn't cause any trouble.

EDIT: If a GM is really into stopping it, they might use the wording of Wayang Spellhunter against it. A quickened cantrip can be interpreted as a 4th-level spell (Wayang Spellhunter is capped to 3rd) and it says 'with a metamagic feat', singular. But these are both quite fragile arguments...


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But... but they were going to arcane mark everything in sight! As a swift action!! Without moving or speaking!! EVERYTHING IN SIGHT!!!

HRRRGH! *flip*

Sovereign Court

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I like using Magical Lineage + Wayang Spellhunter to get free Empower Spell on Ray of Frost. And then taking False Focus + Point-Blank Shot, with 1 level each into Invoker Winter Witch, Crossblooded Sorcerer, and Medium, and buying a Liquid Ice to hold onto.

And then doing (2d3+12)*1.5 = 21 to 26 damage with a cantrip at level 3 (assuming human, so you can get all 3 feats).


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Wayne Bradbury wrote:

I like using Magical Lineage + Wayang Spellhunter to get free Empower Spell on Ray of Frost. And then taking False Focus + Point-Blank Shot, with 1 level each into Invoker Winter Witch, Crossblooded Sorcerer, and Medium, and buying a Liquid Ice to hold onto.

And then doing (2d3+12)*1.5 = 21 to 26 damage with a cantrip at level 3 (assuming human, so you can get all 3 feats).

If you wanted to, you could take Ray of Frost as a Sorcerer spell and swap out your 1st level Bloodline Power for Blood Havoc to get 1 more damage, or are you already doing that?


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Sounds legit. Digitate ALL the prestis!

Sovereign Court

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Bloodrealm wrote:
Wayne Bradbury wrote:

I like using Magical Lineage + Wayang Spellhunter to get free Empower Spell on Ray of Frost. And then taking False Focus + Point-Blank Shot, with 1 level each into Invoker Winter Witch, Crossblooded Sorcerer, and Medium, and buying a Liquid Ice to hold onto.

And then doing (2d3+12)*1.5 = 21 to 26 damage with a cantrip at level 3 (assuming human, so you can get all 3 feats).

If you wanted to, you could take Ray of Frost as a Sorcerer spell and swap out your 1st level Bloodline Power for Blood Havoc to get 1 more damage, or are you already doing that?

Unfortunately, I primarily play PFS, where Blood Havoc isn't legal. That said, even if it were, it would have some issues, due to how metamagic interacts with spontaneous casting and needing some extra feats. Still, it's nice to know the options for more damage.


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Wayne Bradbury wrote:

I like using Magical Lineage + Wayang Spellhunter to get free Empower Spell on Ray of Frost. And then taking False Focus + Point-Blank Shot, with 1 level each into Invoker Winter Witch, Crossblooded Sorcerer, and Medium, and buying a Liquid Ice to hold onto.

And then doing (2d3+12)*1.5 = 21 to 26 damage with a cantrip at level 3 (assuming human, so you can get all 3 feats).

Can you go into the detail of this? I am missing how you are adding the additional +1d3 damage to the spell.

1d3 Ray of Frost
+2 Medium
+2 Crossblooded Sorcerer (Draconic/Orc bloodlines)
+1 Reckoning (Invoker Witch)
+1 Liquid Ice (as a Focus)
-----------------------------
(1d3+6)*1.5

+1 Point Blank Shot

(1d3+6)*1.5 + 1

11-14 damage per shot

Sovereign Court

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I do something similar with acid splash instead of Ray of Frost, but I hadn't considered Invoker. Looking at it now, it only seems good if you take a couple of levels of witch, and I just dipped one for frozen caress.

Also, using liquid ice as a material component doesn't make it do 2d3, it replaces the 1d3 cold with 1d3 piercing +1 cold. Using it as a focus component is just +1 damage.

Sovereign Court

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Firebug wrote:
Also, using liquid ice as a material component doesn't make it do 2d3, it replaces the 1d3 cold with 1d3 piercing +1 cold. Using it as a focus component is just +1 damage.

There's some debate on that one. Some people believe it changes it to 1d3+1, some people believe it adds 1d3+1. The wording is vague and it hasn't been answered officially. As is, several of my local PFS GMs have signed off on the +1d3+1 interpretation, so it's what I'm going with for the time being. I'd really rather an official answer one way or the other, but I doubt such a thing is forthcoming.

Scarab Sages

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Morbid Eels wrote:
Can I use Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection on a cantrip and have it be a still, silent, quickened infinitely usable spell?

You can't use any of those to lower a spell below it's normal level, but you could certain use any number of combinations to apply metamagic feats to a 0-level spell and have it remain at 0 level.

That said, two issues arrise:

If you are a prepared spell caster, the metamagic feats must be applied at the preparation stage. You can't discard the metamagic feats if they become less practical for a particular encounter (example, Acid Splash with Elemental Spell to make it deal Cold Damage with an Ice Elemental opponent). You can certainly prepare the same 0-level spell more than once, so you could experiement with combinations (like a Acid Splash of each element), but each one will use up and limit your cantrip slots.

If you are a spontaneous caster, the metamagic feat increases the spell's casting time to a full-round action. The good news is that you can apply the metamagic whenever, but the increased casting time can be a real bother.


Wayne Bradbury wrote:
As is, several of my local PFS GMs have signed off on the +1d3+1 interpretation, so it's what I'm going with for the time being. I'd really rather an official answer one way or the other, but I doubt such a thing is forthcoming.

I think the wording is pretty clear that it replaces and doesn't add, but I think it should add. Afterall, you are turning a ranged touch attack into a piercing attack. That means... you lose the touch attack advantage to gain... a means to bypass cold resistance. That's not worth much. And it costs 40 gold per shot (or a feat -> False Focus).

At level 3, +0 BAB human caster would have a hard time hitting with that piercing attack. If you went all in with an 18 DEX, you'd be +5 to hit a normal target, +1 to hit if the target is in melee, and -3 to hit shooting thru a fellow PC into melee.

The 12-26 damage piercing attack vs. normal AC isn't going to hit nearly as often as the 11-14 ranged touch attack. This is especially true if False Focus is traded out for Precise Shot.

Sovereign Court

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Rory wrote:
I think the wording is pretty clear that it replaces and doesn't add, but I think it should add.

Absolutely nothing in the wording of the Alchemical Power Component text for Liquid Ice says that it replaces the original effect of Ray of Frost.

Compare to, for example, the Power Component text for a Smokestick with Obscuring Mist:

Smokestick with Obscuring Mist wrote:
The spell creates a smoky haze instead of mist. This haze cannot be dispersed by fire spells and dissipates naturally after 1 minute.

Notice how it says "instead of". Nothing like that appears for Liquid Ice with Ray of Frost. It just says it makes an icicle.

Liquid Ice with Ray of Frost wrote:
The spell creates an icicle of frozen water vapor that strikes the target and deals 1d3 points of piercing damage and 1 point of cold damage.

Doesn't specifically specify if it's in addition or instead of, but precedence shows that if it replaced it would say "instead of". Either way, as I said, the wording is unclear.

Additionally...

Rory wrote:
Afterall, you are turning a ranged touch attack into a piercing attack.

Nothing in the description says the spell stops being a ranged touch attack.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Morbid Eels wrote:
Can I use Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection on a cantrip and have it be a still, silent, quickened infinitely usable spell?

You can't use any of those to lower a spell below it's normal level, but you could certain use any number of combinations to apply metamagic feats to a 0-level spell and have it remain at 0 level.

That said, two issues arrise:

If you are a prepared spell caster, the metamagic feats must be applied at the preparation stage. You can't discard the metamagic feats if they become less practical for a particular encounter (example, Acid Splash with Elemental Spell to make it deal Cold Damage with an Ice Elemental opponent). You can certainly prepare the same 0-level spell more than once, so you could experiement with combinations (like a Acid Splash of each element), but each one will use up and limit your cantrip slots.

If you are a spontaneous caster, the metamagic feat increases the spell's casting time to a full-round action. The good news is that you can apply the metamagic whenever, but the increased casting time can be a real bother.

Even if you're a spontaneous caster, Quicken bypasses the casting time increase.

Scarab Sages

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LoudKid wrote:
Even if you're a spontaneous caster, Quicken bypasses the casting time increase.

OP said the metamagic feats in the question were just the first ones he could think of. My response was more general, since the question was directed in a more general capacity. You are correct, the Quicken Spell feat specifically adjusts the cast time of even spontaneously cast spells.

As an aside, I don't think you can use Spell Perfection to ignore the spell slot increase of a Quicken Spell Metamagic feat, as Spell perfection specifically can't adjust the casting time of a spell by applying the metamagic feat. You could certainly use spell perfection on other metamagic feats.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
LoudKid wrote:


As an aside, I don't think you can use Spell Perfection to ignore the spell slot increase of a Quicken Spell Metamagic feat, as Spell perfection specifically can't adjust the casting time of a spell by applying the metamagic feat. You could certainly use spell perfection on other metamagic feats.

spell perfection talks about the general rule of metamagic spells changing the time to cast the spell for spontanius casters.

general rule - metamigc used with spontanius casters increase both spell levle and casting time.
spell perfection is a specific rule change - the time is not cahnged and the spell level is not increased.
BUT quicken spell ALSO has a specific rule of changing the time the spell is cast (by making it shorter instead of longer)

this makes this a specific vs specific rule. and in such case the more specific rule should be used.

general rule for ALL metamagic - incraese spell levle and casting time. more spcific rule for all metamagic using spell perfection - do not increase cating time or spell level. more specific rule that only apply to quicken spell metamagic feat - not only you dont increase the castingtime you also decrease it.

your applaying a specific limitation to a specific limitation it's not ment to limit


Wayne Bradbury wrote:
Rory wrote:
I think the wording is pretty clear that it replaces and doesn't add, but I think it should add.
Absolutely nothing in the wording of the Alchemical Power Component text for Liquid Ice says that it replaces the original effect of Ray of Frost.

Except where it tells you what the spell creates. That supersedes what it normally creates. It does not say it adds.

Wayne Bradbury wrote:
Either way, as I said, the wording is unclear.

Especially when you want it to be. :-)

Wayne Bradbury wrote:

Additionally...

Rory wrote:
Afterall, you are turning a ranged touch attack into a piercing attack.
Nothing in the description says the spell stops being a ranged touch attack.

This looks good to me.

That said, to get the icicle, you need to use the liquid ice up. That's 40 gp a pop. Even if it did give what you want, I would not use it as a material component. I assume you are using False Focus to cover this.

If you go for the (F) as opposed to the (M) power component, you don't need the False Focus feat.

/cevah


Wayne Bradbury wrote:
Rory wrote:
Afterall, you are turning a ranged touch attack into a piercing attack.
Nothing in the description says the spell stops being a ranged touch attack.

The effect says the spell creates an icicle that does piercing damage. A ranged touch attack and a piercing damage attack are two separate things. They target different sets of defenses.

That said, I simply don't know any examples where a ranged touch attack counts as piercing (or slashing or bludgeon) damage. Maybe there are some. If anyone had any examples of those two lines crossing, that would help a lot. I cannot interpret this as the first case, but if it followed a precedent...


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Rory wrote:
I simply don't know any examples where a ranged touch attack counts as piercing (or slashing or bludgeon) damage. Maybe there are some. If anyone had any examples of those two lines crossing, that would help a lot.
Quote:
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus (Fortitude half), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Rory wrote:
I simply don't know any examples where a ranged touch attack counts as piercing (or slashing or bludgeon) damage. Maybe there are some. If anyone had any examples of those two lines crossing, that would help a lot.
Quote:
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus (Fortitude half), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.

Thanks Matthew! Based on that precedence, the modified Ray of Frost could definitely be a ranged touch piercing attack.

Doesn't make definition sense to me, but so what, it's... magic! :-)

Scarab Sages

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Rory wrote:
That said, I simply don't know any examples where a ranged touch attack counts as piercing (or slashing or bludgeon) damage. Maybe there are some. If anyone had any examples of those two lines crossing, that would help a lot. I cannot interpret this as the first case, but if it followed a precedent...

Firearms within their first range increment are ranged touch which deal piercing and bludgeoning damage. A gunslinger can extend this ranged touch beyond their first range increment.


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Rory wrote:
Wayne Bradbury wrote:
Rory wrote:
Afterall, you are turning a ranged touch attack into a piercing attack.
Nothing in the description says the spell stops being a ranged touch attack.

The effect says the spell creates an icicle that does piercing damage. A ranged touch attack and a piercing damage attack are two separate things. They target different sets of defenses.

That said, I simply don't know any examples where a ranged touch attack counts as piercing (or slashing or bludgeon) damage. Maybe there are some. If anyone had any examples of those two lines crossing, that would help a lot. I cannot interpret this as the first case, but if it followed a precedent...

You are confusing attack type and damage type.

Attacks (with an attack roll) can be broadly separated into two groups. Normal attacks (which target normal AC) and touch attacks (which target touch AC). Damage type has no bearing on this at all.

You can have a touch attack that deals bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing damage. It is generally rare, but nothing prevents it.

Likewise, you can have an energy attack (fire, acid, electricity, sonic, or cold) that targets normal AC. Those would also be rare, but again nothing prevents it.


Jeraa wrote:

You are confusing attack type and damage type.

Damage type actually had nothing to do with it. It was a deeper flaw than that.

I was full up thinking that a piercing, slashing, or bludgeon attack by definition is an attack versus normal AC. Afterall, you don't pierce, slash, bludgeon when all you are doing is touching. You also do a lot more than touch when you pierce, slash, and bludgeon.

Obviously, there are examples that the designers have made some touch attacks do piercing, slashing, and/or bludgeon damage. Thanks to those who posted those. This may make no sense to me, but that doesn't matter. It is what it is.

Learn something new every day! :-)

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