Mauler archetype Toad?


Rules Questions


So, doing a bit of theory crafting on a character, and I ran into a question about familiars.

What happens when a familiar that does not have a listed attack, grows to become a medium sized creature?

For example, under offense toads just list:
Speed 5 ft.
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.

Does the toad gain any form of attack when they become medium sized? Or do they still have no natural attacks?


RAW, I don't think they would.
A reasonable DM would probably give your familiar a bite or tongue attack (with Grab if they like you) like giant frogs and giant toads have.


Becoming larger wouldn't give them any new attacks, but I think they would have Unarmed Strike in either form.


Thanks, That's what I expected, but wasn't sure.


Evolved Familiar for Bite and Claw attacks?


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Be an Eldritch Guardian.
Give it your weapon proficiencies.
Hand it a longspear.


LoudKid wrote:

Be an Eldritch Guardian.

Give it your weapon proficiencies.
Hand it a longspear.

I suspect that won't work with most GM's.

Eldritch Guardian wrote:
Share Training (Ex): At 2nd level, when the familiar can see and hear its master, it can use any combat feat possessed by the eldritch guardian. The familiar doesn’t have to meet the feat’s prerequisites, but at the GM’s discretion may be precluded from using certain combat feats due to its physical form. For example, an eldritch guardian’s pig familiar with access to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) would not gain the ability to use spiked chains, since it doesn’t have any limbs capable of properly handling them. This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

Dark Archive

Azten wrote:
Evolved Familiar for Bite and Claw attacks?

I'll just note that this would not work in PFS because you have to use unchained evolutions. All the unchained extra attack evolutions have a subtype dependency which eidolons can have. As such you can not give familiars extra attacks with evolved familiar.

If you're not playing PFS the legality will depend on your GM.

Dark Archive

Darafern wrote:
Azten wrote:
Evolved Familiar for Bite and Claw attacks?

I'll just note that this would not work in PFS because you have to use unchained evolutions. All the unchained extra attack evolutions have a subtype dependency which eidolons can have. As such you can not give familiars extra attacks with evolved familiar.

If you're not playing PFS the legality will depend on your GM.

Actually, they made a statement about this for PFS

The post in question

Linda Zayas-Palmer wrote:

We've talked over how to approach this feat, and we'd like it to use Unchained evolutions without blocking access to evolutions that most subtypes can take. We're planning to add the following to the next update of the Campaign Clarifications document.

"For the Evolved Familiar feat, use evolutions for the unchained summoner (Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder Unchained 25). The familiar must conform to all requirements listed in the evolution, such as having wings to take wing buffet, with the following exception. If any of the eidolon subtypes that appear in Pathfinder Unchained qualify for the evolution, then a familiar qualifies for that evolution as well."

So although in PFS you need to choose from the Unchained Evolution list, a familiar is allowed to take any evolution (except for wing buffet if you do not have any wings).

Dark Archive

Mr. Bonkers wrote:
So although in PFS you need to choose from the Unchained Evolution list, a familiar is allowed to take any evolution (except for wing buffet if you do not have any wings).

Good to know. I had not noticed this recent ruling yet. At least one local player will be quite happy.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Gisher wrote:


I suspect that won't work with most GM's.

Eldritch Guardian wrote:
Share Training (Ex): At 2nd level, when the familiar can see and hear its master, it can use any combat feat possessed by the eldritch guardian. The familiar doesn’t have to meet the feat’s prerequisites, but at the GM’s discretion may be precluded from using certain combat feats due to its physical form. For example, an eldritch guardian’s pig familiar with access to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) would not gain the ability to use spiked chains, since it doesn’t have any limbs capable of properly handling them. This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

A pig has hoofs, not hands. A toad at least has four dexterous-looking fingers.


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I guess you could say it's toadally impractical.


You could give the toad armor spikes.


Is not proficient though. Class gained proficiency is not a feat, so even eldritch guardian would not work.

Ioun stone? You can add on a wayfinder to get freeish weapon focus.


Greater Shadow Body Piercings!


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
toastedamphibian wrote:

Is not proficient though. Class gained proficiency is not a feat, so even eldritch guardian would not work.

Ioun stone? You can add on a wayfinder to get freeish weapon focus.

Huh... After looking through the feats again, it seems that light armor proficiency and heavy armor proficiency are actually gained as feats for the CRB classes, by RAW. For some reason medium armor and simple and martial weapons don't have that text...

Scarab Sages

Jinotad wrote:

So, doing a bit of theory crafting on a character, and I ran into a question about familiars.

What happens when a familiar that does not have a listed attack, grows to become a medium sized creature?

For example, under offense toads just list:
Speed 5 ft.
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.

Does the toad gain any form of attack when they become medium sized? Or do they still have no natural attacks?

The Toad really sucks as a combat familiar. Remember that as a familiar, bonus mod to melee attack is only applied on natural weapons. So a Toad uses Str to deliver touch spells. Toads also can't swim in pathfinder....

Only decent thing to do with a toad is train up persception (since it comes stock with a +2 wisdom mod and skill focus percepion).

If looking for a pet that adds HP like a toad, but isn't worthless, the Chicken also adds +3 HP and does have natural attacks.

In alternative, you could take Evolved Familiar, or a similar ability, to grant your familiar a natural melee attack. That would retroactively allow the toad to apply dex on attack rolls, which does wonders to making the toad viable.

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