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Medpatch with Medical Expert?


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

What is the DC for using a medpatch to Treat Deadly Wounds?

The Medical Expert feat says 'You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action.' Medicine skill says 'You can use Medicine to restore Hit Points to a living, wounded creature. This takes 1 minute, and the DC is based on the medical equipment used.' Medpatch says 'A medpatch allows you to attempt a Medicine check untrained with a +10 circumstance bonus, but only for the first aid, long-term stability, treat disease, and treat drugs or poison tasks.'


YogoZuno wrote:

What is the DC for using a medpatch to Treat Deadly Wounds?

The Medical Expert feat says 'You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action.' Medicine skill says 'You can use Medicine to restore Hit Points to a living, wounded creature. This takes 1 minute, and the DC is based on the medical equipment used.' Medpatch says 'A medpatch allows you to attempt a Medicine check untrained with a +10 circumstance bonus, but only for the first aid, long-term stability, treat disease, and treat drugs or poison tasks.'

To me it looks like that medical expert thing you are talking about adds the deadly wounds condition to the list of things you can treat with a medipatch which means you could possibly get the +10 circumstance bonus to tje check seems reasonable to me

Correction looks like the dc for deadly wounds is 25 and there is a clause on medical expert where the normal effects of the medpatch and sprau flesh dont work normally but they allow you to treat deadly wounds at dc 25 as a full round action instead of the normal list od things they can treat


YogoZuno wrote:

What is the DC for using a medpatch to Treat Deadly Wounds?

The Medical Expert feat says 'You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action.' Medicine skill says 'You can use Medicine to restore Hit Points to a living, wounded creature. This takes 1 minute, and the DC is based on the medical equipment used.' Medpatch says 'A medpatch allows you to attempt a Medicine check untrained with a +10 circumstance bonus, but only for the first aid, long-term stability, treat disease, and treat drugs or poison tasks.'

I think the RAW answer is that the DC depends on the type of medkit you have, and the medpatch gives you a bonus, but I don't know if that RAI, as the flavor text for the medpatch talks about it being a all-in-one device... Might be we're both missing something. :)

edit: ninja'd!


The DC is still based on the Medkit you're using. Medical Expert simply allows you to use a consumable (sprayflesh, medpatch) to do it faster.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Quote:
I think the RAW answer is that the DC depends on the type of medkit you have, and the medpatch gives you a bonus

Hmm, but that's not what Medical Expert says - it explicitly allows you to Treat Deadly Wounds with a medpatch, and you might not even HAVE a medkit.

Quote:
Correction looks like the dc for deadly wounds is 25 and there is a clause on medical expert where the normal effects of the medpatch and sprau flesh dont work normally but they allow you to treat deadly wounds at dc 25 as a full round action instead of the normal list od things they can treat

Where did you get the DC from?? It's not in the rulebook, or SRD?


The DC is listed in the equipment section entries for Basic Medkit (DC 25) and Advanced Medkit (DC 20).


I think Medical Expert isn't there to let you treat deadly wounds with a medpatch, but instead to treat deadly wounds faster if you use a medpatch in conjunction with your normal medkit.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Creme, that DC is for the medkits, yes, but as the feat says, you are able to Treat Deadly Wounds with just the medpatch or synthflesh. Rothlis even says there is a DC for that, even though I don't see one.

d'Eon, that's not what it actually says though. It says 'You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a Medpatch or Synthflesh', not something like 'You can use a basic or advanced medkit with a Medpatch or synthflesh' or 'You can use a medpatch or synthflesh to improve the use of a medkit'. Medical Expert does not mention a medical kit at all.


YogoZuno wrote:
as the feat says, you are able to Treat Deadly Wounds with just the medpatch or synthflesh.

It says nothing of the sort.

"You can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action."

You are still using the Medicine skill. The DC for treating deadly wounds using the Medicine skill is based on the medkit you are using.

"When used in this way, the medpatch or sprayflesh does not perform any of its normal functions."

All the medpatch or sprayflesh does is allow you do it as a full action.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Creme, I'm starting to think you are using this feat the way the designer intended, but that is not at all what is written in the various rules...

Quote:
You are still using the Medicine skill.

Which part of the Medicine skill says you need to use a medkit? The only part of the Medicine skill that even mentions any gear is the part that says 'The DCs of most Medicine tasks are based on the type of equipment used.' Nothing in the skill description mandates any particular gear for any particular operation.

Instead, the equipment description itself tells us what it can be used for. Except that, then, Medical Expert overrides that, and tells us we can use a Medpatch and Sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds instead of their normal function. It doesn't actually say you need anything other than the medpatch or sprayflesh. This implies the DC should be set by the medpatch or sprayflesh.

However, given the lack of DC, I am sad to say I think the designer intended the feat to be used in conjunction with a medkit/medbay, even if it' never actually mentioned anywhere in the rules.


YogoZuno wrote:
Which part of the Medicine skill says you need to use a medkit? The only part of the Medicine skill that even mentions any gear is the part that says 'The DCs of most Medicine tasks are based on the type of equipment used.' Nothing in the skill description mandates any particular gear for any particular operation.

"The DCs of most Medicine tasks are based on the type of equipment used (see Chapter 7 for that information)."

"Medical gear allows you to attempt Medicine checks and determines the DC of Medicine checks to treat deadly wounds." - p.220 (Chapter 7)

So we need gear, and it sets the DC.

YogoZuno wrote:

Except that, then, Medical Expert overrides that, and tells us we can use a Medpatch and Sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds instead of their normal function. It doesn't actually say you need anything other than the medpatch or sprayflesh. This implies the DC should be set by the medpatch or sprayflesh.

No, it does not. It says "You can you can use the Medicine skill in conjunction with a medpatch or sprayflesh to treat deadly wounds as a full action." "In conjunction with," not "with only." You are using the Medicine skill as well as the medpatch/sprayflesh. Nothing says you no longer need appropriate gear as required by the Medicine skill. So the DC is still based on the Medical Gear you are using to treat deadly wounds with Medicine.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

I think we'll have to agree to disagree there, Creme...clearly, you are more in tune with the way this was written than I am.


Creme Bulette,
I think I agree with YogoZuno that I rad the quoted text as he does.

...But if the text did clearly say that you need a tool kit (medical kit) to attempt these medicine medicine actions and list them or say you can do these action with out a medical kit, it would go a long way to clearing up a lot of confusion on my part in many areas.

MDC


1 person marked this as a favorite.
YogoZuno wrote:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree there, Creme...clearly, you are more in tune with the way this was written than I am.

If you have one reading that causes unanswered problems and one that lets you play the game as is, go with the latter until/if errata comes about.


The thing is, if they specify that you need a Medical Kit to use the skill, it disallows a lot of perfectly logical and valid actions. Specifically, any kind of attempt to use medical skills with improvised or primitive supplies.


I agree that if you require a med kit to do actions you limit options but IIRC the book says that you cannot do engineering with out a tool kit.
So I think that if it applies to the engineering skill then it could or probably does apply to the medicine skill.
MDC


Does it specify that you need a tool kit, or a Tool Kit?


Coming in a little late to this, but I think it's worth looking at one more piece of the feat, which is the 'normal' behavior.

"Normal:It takes 1 minute to treat deadly wounds, and longterm care requires a medical bay or medical lab."

It doesn't say anything about the normally being unable to use a medpatch, only the amount of time required to perform the check. What it does say is that you lose the normal functions of the medpatch. It's a way of letting you use this skill in a pinch to give someone a quick patch-up.

Metaphysician wrote:
Does it specify that you need a tool kit, or a Tool Kit?

What it says is "The DCs of most medicine tasks are based on the type of equipment used". Treat deadly wounds says "This takes 1 minute, and the DC is based on the medical equipment used."

That implies that medical equipment is required, since a DC without medical equipment isn't offered anywhere else in the rulebook. With the ambiguity, I think a GM could rule it a high DC (30+) at their discretion, but without errata I don't think there's a 100% satisfactory answer.


My point is that, "medical equipment" is not the same as "the Tool Kit listed in the item charts". The Tool Kit may be the standardized method of providing suitable supplies, but if you can provide or improvise them in other ways, that still works and you can still make the skill check.

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