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Shutting down grapple / pin, and murderous command.


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

So my dirty SOB GM (and I say it with love) Just pulled out the army of grapplers who lock down everyone, and clerics who chain cast murderous command.

We have one player who min maxed the bejesus out of their barbarian and can regularly do 100+ points of damage, compared to my 70 hit point having self, this could mean permanent death from a 1st level spell.

I am a blade master rogue/trickster level 7, with 4 mythic levels. And about 2000 gold.

So, with magic, alchemy, and tactics:

How do I Break/Avoid Grapple and Pin.

How do I shut down murderous command.

(Last time I pulled an NPC out of my bag of holding and placed it in the way of the barbarian. Alas, Monsieur Bœuf de Tête died a painful, and permanent death.)

Grand Lodge

Best I can come up with off the top is scrolls of freedom of movement and protection from (insert alignment here) to keep the compulsion effects from taking hold. Whether you can get a hold of those things considering your GM has it out for you is another matter, unfortunately. I wouldn't be surprised if every scroll shop in town was mysteriously closed on the day of the attack.
also, getting your barbarian a one handed weapon for when they're grappled and cant use what i assume is a greatsword/earthbreaker.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Grease Spell can give you a +10 on Escape Artist Checks to Escape Grapples. You have to cast it on each other as you get Grappled.

Becoming a really good Grappler yourself isn't too, too hard. One of the characters in your party might do that. Improved Grapple +2, Greater Grapple +2, a Crab Familiar +2, a Tentacle, +4, Armbands of the Brawler, +2, 1000gp, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, 4000gp, Cracked, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, +1 (on all Attack Rolls), 4000, Belt of Strength +2, 4000, Belt of Dex+2, 4000, Belt of both, 8000, Adhesive Armor Enchantment, +2, 7000, Brawler Armor Enchantment, +2, +3 equivalent.

Liberty's Edge

You really want to jut buff the party's will saves / magic circle against evil. Get a friendly 8th level cleric of liberation.


Buy some kitties, or everyone gets 3 pet rats. IE, more NPCs, that are conveniently bag sized.

2000 gold will buy a pack of 80 trained guard dogs.


Also, something as simple as a fog cloud could help you. The clerics cannot target you unless they can see you. Need to get within 5ft, and then you can try and thwack them first. Do you know the situation where you will be facing them?

If you have time you could try and get some Razored Armor Reduces your speed by 5ft, but forces them to make a reflex save every time they make a melee touch attack or grapple check to avoid damage. Won't kill them outright or anything, but it might slow them down?

Salve of Slipperiness costs 1000gp, not something I would normally ever consider using, but in this case? Maybe. +20 to escape artist and CMB to escape grapple, +10 CMD vs grapple, immunity to magical ropes. Lasts 8 hours.


Flight would do the trick too, assuming for some reason the enemy or your allies can't fly.

Scarab Sages

Lesser Pentacle Talisman 600gp. It will grant a reroll on a compulsion effect, and if the reroll is successful it activates Protection from Evil for 5 rounds (preventing additional compulsion effects). It’s an expendable item, but you can eventually buy a Greater Pentacle Talisman for 6,000gp, which works once a day.


I'll repeat most of what everyone else has said.

You really should have Magic Circle against X up all the time. With a 10 minute/level duration it'll last at minimum an hour for a level 7 spellcaster. That means you can smash a dungeon per casting, which is pretty great. It also extends this protection to everyone around the target (please target the barbarian), so if someone IS controlled and ordered to attack the target, they get a free save to remove the effect with a bonus.

I'm going to assume you have a spellcaster in your party.

Furthermore, Freedom of Movement from a divine spellcaster will last the same duration. With both of these spells, you should have no trouble.

As for some advice for your characters, I guess there are a few.

Rogues don't get Slippery Mind till level 10, so you're quite vulnerable. Additionally, you don't even have good CMD, so you're screwed further. Your best bet is to try to maintain a hidden position before you attack. Maybe even take Major Magic just to get Vanish up a few times a day using Multitalented. Otherwise, you'll need to get some magic items or friendly spellcasters to help you out. Freedom of movement should go on the rogue and the spellcasters anyway.

Your barbie friend should have almost no issue with Will saves, and the fact that they DO is a little worrying. Barbarians get Superstition for a reason, and if they're a human barbarian there is no reason NOT to get it since their bonus with superstition increases only further. On top of that, Rage grants a further bonus to Will saves, and even just having a +1 or 2 and Iron Will should allow you to make most every Will save. Murderous Command is only 1st level, so these spellcasters must be either using Heightened or something really suss is going on. Furthermore, at level 7 that spell is far from the worst thing you could encounter. This is definitely the point where you could be facing Dominate Person after all. You also only take one attack with Murderous Command, and the effects of the spell do not stack at once.

Sovereign Court

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

The Grease Spell can give you a +10 on Escape Artist Checks to Escape Grapples. You have to cast it on each other as you get Grappled.

Becoming a really good Grappler yourself isn't too, too hard. One of the characters in your party might do that. Improved Grapple +2, Greater Grapple +2, a Crab Familiar +2, a Tentacle, +4, Armbands of the Brawler, +2, 1000gp, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, 4000gp, Cracked, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, +1 (on all Attack Rolls), 4000, Belt of Strength +2, 4000, Belt of Dex+2, 4000, Belt of both, 8000, Adhesive Armor Enchantment, +2, 7000, Brawler Armor Enchantment, +2, +3 equivalent.

Lots of good stuff, looking into some of it.

Sovereign Court

toastedamphibian wrote:

Buy some kitties, or everyone gets 3 pet rats. IE, more NPCs, that are conveniently bag sized.

2000 gold will buy a pack of 80 trained guard dogs.

Do kitties count as an "ally", and how long can I keep a kitty in a bag of holding...

Sovereign Court

SterlingEdge wrote:
toastedamphibian wrote:

Buy some kitties, or everyone gets 3 pet rats. IE, more NPCs, that are conveniently bag sized.

2000 gold will buy a pack of 80 trained guard dogs.

Do kitties count as an "ally"

Not if you put them in a bag.


Does the Barbarian who tried to cut you in half last week count as an ally? Is not a well defined term.

The dogs are probably better, less easy to say you just got them as murder fodder. They can also help against the grapplers. A little maybe?

How long depends on the Type of the bag and the size abd number of kitties. Assuming tiny kitties:
Type 1: 43 minutes of kitty air
Type 2: 100 minutes of kitty air
Type 3: 216 minutes of kitty air
Type 4: 360 minutes of kitty air

After that time, they need to make checks every 15 minutes to avoid damage, as per the Slow Suffocation rules.

Edit: honestly though, it's impossible to say how "close" they are if in a bag of holding because thats an extra dimensional space. I believe tradition dictates that a bag of kittens should be burlap or an old pillowcase.


A wand of summon nature's ally 2 is out of your price range, but possibly useful against both problems. Summon 1d3 stirges. They last 3 rounds, are convenient targets for murderous command, achieve grapples with a +7 touch attack, and have a +11 cmb for grapples. Per the "multiple grapplers" rule, each can take a standard action to aid another (which they can't fail) to give another grappler a +2 to escape.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I recommend Invisibility. It's hard to grapple, attack, or target what you can't see.

Particularly once you get Greater Invisibility, that's going to be your bread-and-butter.

If your arcane bond is an item rather than a familiar, you can enchant that yourself to be a Ring of Invisibility. My arcane trickster had one of these, and it served her well from the moment she finished crafting it until she retired at level 18.


(Not arcane trickster. Rogue with Trickster mythic path, I think.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
toastedamphibian wrote:
(Not arcane trickster. Rogue with Trickster mythic path, I think.)

Ah. I should have read more closely, I guess.

Invisibility is still a handy thing to have in this instance, it's just harder to get.


Tinalles wrote:
toastedamphibian wrote:
(Not arcane trickster. Rogue with Trickster mythic path, I think.)

Ah. I should have read more closely, I guess.

Invisibility is still a handy thing to have in this instance, it's just harder to get.

Tricksters get

Vanishing Move wrote:

Vanishing Move (Su)

When you wish to not be seen, you aren’t. As a swift action, you can make yourself invisible until the end of your turn. This effect ends if you do anything other than move. If you expend one use of mythic power when using this ability, it instead acts as greater invisibility using double your tier as your caster level.

Sovereign Court

toastedamphibian wrote:

Does the Barbarian who tried to cut you in half last week count as an ally? Is not a well defined term.

The dogs are probably better, less easy to say you just got them as murder fodder. They can also help against the grapplers. A little maybe?

How long depends on the Type of the bag and the size abd number of kitties. Assuming tiny kitties:
Type 1: 43 minutes of kitty air
Type 2: 100 minutes of kitty air
Type 3: 216 minutes of kitty air
Type 4: 360 minutes of kitty air

After that time, they need to make checks every 15 minutes to avoid damage, as per the Slow Suffocation rules.

Edit: honestly though, it's impossible to say how "close" they are if in a bag of holding because thats an extra dimensional space. I believe tradition dictates that a bag of kittens should be burlap or an old pillowcase.

Just love how our heroic role playing game requires us to know how long it takes to suffocate a kitten. Just sayin.

I do have vanishing move, and am invisible quite often. But that just means he kills another party member while under the influence of merderous command. Still a lose/lose situation. Unless he kills Fritz, screw that guy. :)

I did find 2 ioun stone/wayfinder interactions that could help.

Wayfinder interaction: Dusty rose prism: +2 insight bonus on CMB and to CMD.
Dusty Rose Prism strong varied none +1 insight bonus to AC 5,000 gp
cracked — — +1 competence bonus on initiative checks 500 gp
flawed — — +1 insight bonus to AC, –2 penalty to Constitution 4,000 gp

Wayfinder interaction: Clear spindle: Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil).
Clear Spindle strong varied none Sustains creature without food or water 4,000 gp
cracked — — Sustains creature on half normal food 1,000 gp
flawed — — Sustains creature without food, but it must consume twice the normal amount of water 2,000 gp


Sterling,
^-^
To the people seriously suggesting these sleazes, Heroism is a spell, only.
Role Playing is generally a derision.

Ah, but you thought you were playing the same game as them?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well ... how's your UMD? Protection from Evil will shut down Murderous Command, unless the caster happens to be non-evil. But with a spell named "Murderous Command", it's a pretty safe bet that the majority of people casting it are evil. And a wand of that is a mere 750 gp at CL 1.

If you want slightly better action economy, a Wand of Communal Protection from Evil is 4,500 gp at caster level 3, and you can apply it to up to 3 creatures (each getting 1 minute of protection) in a single round, as long as you can touch all of them in that time frame. So it might be a case of:

swift action: Spring-loaded wrist sheath to get it out
standard action: UMD check to activate
move action: tap yourself and walk around to tap two teammates.

Naturally that doesn't solve the problem of grappling. But hey, at least your barbarian buddy won't be cleaving you in twain. That's a plus, right?


Daw wrote:

Sterling,

^-^
To the people seriously suggesting these sleazes, Heroism is a spell, only.
Role Playing is generally a derision.

Ah, but you thought you were playing the same game as them?

Tisk. Such assumptions! Just because not all characters are white knights doesn't mean characters are not being role played.

Only so many options to counteract magic compulsions on a 2000 gp budget. If the Barbarian is failing the save, he is going to try and murder something. 2k gold is not going to be able to keep him from failing. So, stop him from being ABLE to kill things, which takes him out of the fight, or have other things for him to murder.

Like summoned creatures.


Daw wrote:

Sterling,

^-^
To the people seriously suggesting these sleazes, Heroism is a spell, only.
Role Playing is generally a derision.

Don't be ridiculous. It's also a subdomain.


Tinalles wrote:
But with a spell named "Murderous Command", it's a pretty safe bet that the majority of people casting it are evil.

Because only evil people would use magic in a fight, or participate in deadly combat, right?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No; because magically compelling someone to try killing the nearest living creature is not a nice or honorable thing to do. Therefore, the spell is more likely to be used by people who don't care about such things.

Please note that I haven't said that good- and neutral-aligned people can't cast Murderous Command. They can. There aren't even any alignment repercussions for doing so.

All I'm suggesting is that the odds are good that Protection from Evil will help pretty often against Murderous Command.

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