Looking for options (non multi-class) for a grapple based character other than a Tetori or a melee druid.
I am going to throw out an oddball answer- alchemist.
The tentacle discovery can be interesting. While the attack is secondary (so it hits BAB-5), it can be made primary if it is your only natural attack (it also gets nice 1.5 bonuses like a 2 handed weapon). It also gets the grab property- that is a free action grapple on a successful hit, and it gets a +4 to the check (this ability is part of why tetori and druids are good grapplers).
That +4 allows the alchemist to get over its BAB problem, and then you can also get bonuses from mutagen and extracts. As such, you can get some pretty good numbers.
I've looked into it, and you can grab general grappling feats... and still have enough feats left over to handle a basic reach build. So you can rely on the tentacle early on for grappling, and still have something to do with your hands when you are not doing the maneuver.
Brawler may not be the most interesting choice for grappler, but they tend to be pretty good, while also having other options like brawlers flurry and martial flexibility for times when you're not grappling. It does play pretty similar to non-tetori monks though, if that's something you were looking to avoid.
Is an unarmed fighter good? Or brutal pugilist?
They're... okay. They have some neat abilities, but neither really excel at the job. Unarmed fighter tries to have you focus on 3 different combat maneuvers which is kind of lackluster. Brutal Pugilist has some neat defenses against grapple, but is more focused on allowing you to do things while grappling, like making attacks of opportunity, than actually being good at the maneuver. The insight bonus they gain doesn't stack with a dusty rose prism, and requires that you wear no armor to have the bonus be better.
If you're not looking for a monk like class, I might suggest a cavalier with the constable archetype. Take either the order of the hammer, or order of the penitent.
Strangler Brawler. It’s full BAB, gets bonus feats, gets bonuses to grapple through Maneuver Training, gets extra damage in a grapple, gets to avoid being denied dex in a grapple, eventually can take AoOs while in a grapple, and doesn’t even give up Martial Flexibilty. The biggest drawback is that they lose Improved Unarmed Strike and the Brawler damage progression (and flurry, but that doesn’t matter so much). Just take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Even doing 1d3, you’ll eventually have enough to stack on top of that to do quite a lot of damage.
lemeres wrote: I am going to throw out an oddball answer- alchemist.
The tentacle discovery can be interesting. While the attack is secondary (so it hits BAB-5), it can be made primary if it is your only natural attack (it also gets nice 1.5 bonuses like a 2 handed weapon). It also gets the grab property- that is a free action grapple on a successful hit, and it gets a +4 to the check (this ability is part of why tetori and druids are good grapplers).
That +4 allows the alchemist to get over its BAB problem, and then you can also get bonuses from mutagen and extracts. As such, you can get some pretty good numbers.
I've looked into it, and you can grab general grappling feats... and still have enough feats left over to handle a basic reach build. So you can rely on the tentacle early on for grappling, and still have something to do with your hands when you are not doing the maneuver.
You know what else you need? A King Crab Tumor Familiar: +2.
Take 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. Make your Teamwork Feat Coordinated Maneuvers: +2 on Grapple Checks. And your level 2 Order Ability lets you Tie Up an opponent you have Grappled--not Pinned!--and you don't take that -10 on your check like you normally do.
Tetoris get Inescapable Grasp, which shuts down Freedom of Movement.
Take 4 levels in Druid. Take Shaping Focus. Turn into a Giant Octopus: Size Large +2, and you have Grab: +4. And that's not counting your ST bonus.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: lemeres wrote: I am going to throw out an oddball answer- alchemist.
The tentacle discovery can be interesting. While the attack is secondary (so it hits BAB-5), it can be made primary if it is your only natural attack (it also gets nice 1.5 bonuses like a 2 handed weapon). It also gets the grab property- that is a free action grapple on a successful hit, and it gets a +4 to the check (this ability is part of why tetori and druids are good grapplers).
That +4 allows the alchemist to get over its BAB problem, and then you can also get bonuses from mutagen and extracts. As such, you can get some pretty good numbers.
I've looked into it, and you can grab general grappling feats... and still have enough feats left over to handle a basic reach build. So you can rely on the tentacle early on for grappling, and still have something to do with your hands when you are not doing the maneuver.
You know what else you need? A King Crab Tumor Familiar: +2. Yes. That is the beauty of this build- I've mostly just been looking at feats and stuff out of the box. It only has 1 listed discovery, and you can grab that at level 2. So you can fill up on other stuff- I personally like having bombs so you have more options (debuffs!)
lemeres wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: lemeres wrote: I am going to throw out an oddball answer- alchemist.
The tentacle discovery can be interesting. While the attack is secondary (so it hits BAB-5), it can be made primary if it is your only natural attack (it also gets nice 1.5 bonuses like a 2 handed weapon). It also gets the grab property- that is a free action grapple on a successful hit, and it gets a +4 to the check (this ability is part of why tetori and druids are good grapplers).
That +4 allows the alchemist to get over its BAB problem, and then you can also get bonuses from mutagen and extracts. As such, you can get some pretty good numbers.
I've looked into it, and you can grab general grappling feats... and still have enough feats left over to handle a basic reach build. So you can rely on the tentacle early on for grappling, and still have something to do with your hands when you are not doing the maneuver.
You know what else you need? A King Crab Tumor Familiar: +2. Yes. That is the beauty of this build- I've mostly just been looking at feats and stuff out of the box. It only has 1 listed discovery, and you can grab that at level 2. So you can fill up on other stuff- I personally like having bombs so you have more options (debuffs!) I started a PFS character like this. My idea is that she will be a Grenadier. She also has 2 levels in Ranger with Precise Shot. She casts Gravity Bow on her arrows, and with a few levels in Alchemist, she will shoot exploding arrows: that alchemal arrow ability at level Alchemist and Explosive Missile at level 4.
That King Crab Tumor Familiar should not be overlooked. You see, with 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent, you can Tie Up an opponent with only 2 successful Grapple checks. And with Greater Grapple you can make 2/round. That means your character can Grapple and Tie Up your target in only one round provided you begin your round adjacent to your opponent. The Familiar can give you much more than a Full time +2. It can give you a +20 if you have a bit of time to Buff. You use Share Spells to have your Familiar cast Touch Injection. You give your Famililar an Infusion of True Strike. Next, you put True Strike on yourself. The following round, the party Wizard DimDors you onto the back of the Ancient Dragon (or whatever) flying overhead. Then you Grapple the Dragon with an extra +20 as a Standard Action. Your Familiar Injects True Strike into you as a Readied Action, and then you Tie Up the Dragon as a Move Action, again at +20. I had a level 9 Grappling character with a full-time GMB of +30. Not too many things have a GMD of 50! A Balor Demon's is only 54.
So I'm thinking this character will shoot exploding arrows until there is a BBEG, then she'll just run up and Grapple it. I'm having a problem with her: her AC is much too low. I was going to hold out for a Mithril Spiked (why not) Agile Breastplate, and I was going to take Broken Wing Gambit and Great Cleave. But now I'm thinking more of a 3rd level in Ranger and get a regular Agile Breastplate, a Heavy Throwing Shield (so she can unclasp and drop it as a Free Action), and consider retraining Cleave and Power Attack with something else.
I was just making a list on another thread on how to increast your GMB
some ways to increase your GMB
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I've spend a lot of time studying grappling, and to my opinion, even if there is lots of fun options with other classes, nothing beats Master of Many Styles/Wildcat Monk at grappling except a Tetori.
At level 20, the MoMS Wilcat nets a full BAB +8 on any CMB throw, prior to all forms of other enhancement, and have an easy access at all the best feats for grappling.
It can cumulate together the kraken, grabbing and snapping turtle style, turning him into a machine throwing grapple checks as counter-attacks, able to grapple two people at a same time with no penality, and adding his wisdom to damage on every successful grapple check.
Finally, with some additional feats, you can also do such as damaging someone with your fists trigger an additional grapple check, and that pinning someone down trigger an additional stunning fist.
=> Use a standard action to trip someone, which trigger your unarmed damage, which trigger a grapple check, which trigger your wisdom damage, then use a move action to pin him, which trigger your wisdom damage and an automated stunning fist attempt, which trigger a third grapple check, which trigger your wisdom to damage again, then use a swift action to damage it, adding your wisdom damage again... while your retain your dex bonus to AC and counter anyone wanting to attack you by grappling him with your other hand...
Who need flurry?
Moonheart wrote: I've spend a lot of time studying grappling, and to my opinion, even if there is lots of fun options with other classes, nothing beats Master of Many Styles/Wildcat Monk at grappling except a Tetori.
At level 20, the MoMS Wilcat nets a full BAB +8 on any CMB throw, prior to all forms of other enhancement, and have an easy access at all the best feats for grappling.
It can cumulate together the kraken, grabbing and snapping turtle style, turning him into a machine throwing grapple checks as counter-attacks, able to grapple two people at a same time with no penality, and adding his wisdom to damage on every successful grapple check.
Finally, with some additional feats, you can also do such as damaging someone with your fists trigger an additional grapple check, and that pinning someone down trigger an additional stunning fist.
=> Use a standard action to trip someone, which trigger your unarmed damage, which trigger a grapple check, which trigger your wisdom damage, then use a move action to pin him, which trigger your wisdom damage and an automated stunning fist attempt, which trigger a third grapple check, which trigger your wisdom to damage again, then use a swift action to damage it, adding your wisdom damage again... while your retain your dex bonus to AC and counter anyone wanting to attack you by grappling him with your other hand...
Who need flurry?
I'm kind of interested in seeing your build.
found it. commented on that thread.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Take 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. Make your Teamwork Feat Coordinated Maneuvers: +2 on Grapple Checks. And your level 2 Order Ability lets you Tie Up an opponent you have Grappled--not Pinned!--and you don't take that -10 on your check like you normally do.
Tetoris get Inescapable Grasp, which shuts down Freedom of Movement.
Take 4 levels in Druid. Take Shaping Focus. Turn into a Giant Octopus: Size Large +2, and you have Grab: +4. And that's not counting your ST bonus.
Lashunta outrider cavalier gets you combat expertise and improved grapple at level one and greater grapple at level 9
I'd like to point out Greater Suffocating Grip which allows a barbarian (who rage cycles strength surge) to kill any breathing creature without incident. You confirm the grapple, next turn you maintain it and choke them, they drop unconscious, and then you coup de gras them with throat slicer.It's pretty much just freedom of movement or the ability to teleport that will save them. One level dip into constable lets the Barbarian try this from a Charge.
The idea is to throat slice on the first turn, if you are attacked... I don't know if this would work or if it is any good.
cavalier (full bab), Lashunta gets improved grapple and greater grapple.
Activate snapping turtle style as a free action thanks to combat style master
Free action to move the pet you are riding.
You get attacked snapping turtle as immediate,
You use move action to maintain the grapple to pin it, both you and the pet do a throat slicer attempt or you have use your standard action for something else and only the pet makes the attempt. In my build below I used the standard action to activate the strength domain to give bonus on the grapple
Lashunta outrider cavalier
1 combat expertise, improved grapple. Feat exotic weapon prof dan bong
3 VMC cleric falayna (I don't know if this makes sense with Lashunta though)
5 IUS
6 bonus: celestial obedience falayna
7 snapping turtle style
9 greater grapple, snapping turtle clutch
PET: throat slicer and other feats
9 BAB
2 improved grapple
2 greater grapple
1 trait bred for war (race trait)
2 heirloom weapon + 2 on all grapples with Dan Bong
2 Dan Bong itself
4 VMC falyana will give us strength domain which can be activated
as standard action, this will give us +4 at level 9
6 strength: Start with strength 18, @ level 4 upgrade to 20 @ level 8 22
3 belt of anaconda coils gives +2 strength and a 2 competence
bonus on grappling for another +3
4 celestial obedience falayna
2 weapon enchantment on dan bong
2 Adhesive armor
+39, -2 on the grapple initiated with snapping turtle clutch
ShroudedInLight wrote: I'd like to point out Greater Suffocating Grip which allows a barbarian (who rage cycles strength surge) to kill any breathing creature without incident. You confirm the grapple, next turn you maintain it and choke them, they drop unconscious, and then you coup de gras them with throat slicer.It's pretty much just freedom of movement or the ability to teleport that will save them. One level dip into constable lets the Barbarian try this from a Charge. What is Greater Suffocating Grip? is that a Feat? How long does it take to make your victim unconscious?
Wicky1976 wrote: heirloom weapon + 2 on all grapples with Dan Bong I am not confident about the Dan Bong. It gives you +2 on Grapple Checks, but the Grapple rules say that if you don't have 2 hands free, you take a -4 on your Grapple checks. And since, to my knowledge, the Dan Bong does not specify that it does not count against your 2 free hands, that +2 is really just an offset against the -4, so using a Dan Bong really gives you a -2 and not a +2.
I know that sounds stupid, but the last time I looked into this, that was technically the situation. Dan Bongs are cheap, so it wouldn't hurt to buy one and then ask your Pathfinder Society GM how he interprets the rules. For any other GM, you can ask before you make the purchase.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I'm running a game right now with a brutal pugilist barbarian (tiefling) in it. He can get over 60 to grapple something with his surge of strength, and he has the Kraken Style feats in addition. He also took that rage power that lets you use whatever you're grappling as a shield or to hit something else.
He's definitely effective.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: ShroudedInLight wrote: I'd like to point out Greater Suffocating Grip which allows a barbarian (who rage cycles strength surge) to kill any breathing creature without incident. You confirm the grapple, next turn you maintain it and choke them, they drop unconscious, and then you coup de gras them with throat slicer.It's pretty much just freedom of movement or the ability to teleport that will save them. One level dip into constable lets the Barbarian try this from a Charge. What is Greater Suffocating Grip? is that a Feat? How long does it take to make your victim unconscious? Its a new rage power that came out recently, and it follows the same rules for Suffocation which is a guaranteed 3-turn kill. [In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.]. Only comes online at level 12, but it does ensure that you can auto-kill anything you can perform a maintain check on with Throat Slicer (Move to maintain, instant unconscious, throat slit).
Really fun with Snapping Turtle Clutch or Bull Catcher style to trigger the initial grapple on the opponents turn.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/BarbarianRagePowers.aspx?Type=Misc
If your GM allows third party stuff, the Snake mystery from Deep Magic. Specifically the Coils revelation.
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Tacticslion wrote: Succubi! Thinking about it.... can we make a build that prevents the negative level from the succubus's energy drain?
So that we could grapple it. All day. For science.... well, magic. Whatever. Get to researching that wizards.
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I mean, Death Ward will protect you for periods of time.
So...permanent timeless demiplane, cast death ward, bind a succubus, start the grapple?
Now you're thinking with portals demiplanes.
Don’t forget deities! Falayna and Mazmezz offer a +4 to grappling and CMD; Falayna can let you increase your damage die by one step, while Mazmezz can let you use Web and Vermin Shape II as SLAs. If you take her new sentinel boon, Mazmezz also lets your web attacks do strength drain! There’s also Anogetz, which gives a +4 to grappling and Beast Shape IV as an SLA, and Shivaska, whose 3rd sentinel boon gives you tentacle arms that have reach, grab, and constrict. The arms are also natural weapons and give you the choker’s strangle and quickness abilities.
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lemeres wrote: Tacticslion wrote: Succubi! Thinking about it.... can we make a build that prevents the negative level from the succubus's energy drain?
So that we could grapple it. All day. For science.... well, magic. Whatever. Get to researching that wizards. I really think the Succubus should have to overcome your GMD or your Will Save in order to give you a negative level. If you are in control of the Grapple, you shouldn't take the hit.
But even so, the character build I described would only suffer a single level of drain, because that is all she needs to Tie Up the Succubus, although I'm sure that a Succubus in bondage would not be diminished in her ability to use Charm or Suggestion (or whatever they use)
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