Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Society


Starfinder


Starfinder Society

Fighter (etc...) Feat Swap ability


Rules Questions


Okay, so we have a Fighter lv 1, Swashbuckler lv 4 (human if it matters):

When he reaches Swash 4 can he change the feat he took at Fighter level 1 (If it matters his progression went Swash 1, fighter 1, swash 2-4)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

He can not, as the bonus feat swap ability is based on his fighter level, not his character level.

Classes wrote:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.


Did not think so, but the wording on the Swashbuckler ability is SO Weird...

"In addition, upon reaching 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a swashbuckler can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat she has already learned. In effect, the swashbuckler loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A swashbuckler can only change one feat at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time she gains a new bonus feat for the level."

Note the bolded section and that they learn their first bonus feat at level 4, just seems the wording is weird to me...

Please, Please, Please: do not take me as arguing the point, my gut said no, I thought no, I expected no, accept no, etc....just something about the wording seems odd to me...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I was unaware that swashbucklers get a bonus feat class feature. I don't believe there is a clear delineation between those features, so it could be ruled either way. The fact that swashbucklers are a hybrid of fighter and gunslinger makes me inclined to rule yes to retraining fighter bonus feats as well.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.

All classes are written from the point of view of single classed characters.

As a result phrases like “upon reaching 4th level”
Mean
“Upon reaching 4th level in this class”


James Risner wrote:

All classes are written from the point of view of single classed characters.

As a result phrases like “upon reaching 4th level”
Mean
“Upon reaching 4th level in this class”

Correct, but this has no bearing on the question at hand.


Actually, it does have bearing. The swashbuckler ability to swap bonus feats every four levels is solely for bonus feats gained through the swashbuckler class every four levels. Bonus feats from fighter levels are a separate class feature.


I think it is at least a bit relevant in truth: a strong argument can be made that the same assumption can be made that it is "The bonus feat from this class can be changed at level 4"

An equally strong case can be made that as the Swashbuckler levels count as fighter levels for feats, and that the ability specifically calls out changing bonus feats at level 4 the assumption is that you can change combat feats from other classes as well.

Thus the root of the question at hand

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
River of Sticks wrote:
Bonus feats from fighter levels are a separate class feature.

I feel like there was a FAQ or clarification about this. Anyone have a link?


In the end, it is just a matter of when I get to swap the feat out, and a period of a redundant feat.

The feat swap I am planning is "Slashing Grace" To Aldori Sword Master. I also intend to take 4 levels of fighter (eventually), with Slashing Grace being my Fighter level 1. If I can't swap at level 5 (Swash-4) I will just take ASM and have two redundant feats for a while...


TriOmegaZero wrote:
River of Sticks wrote:
Bonus feats from fighter levels are a separate class feature.
I feel like there was a FAQ or clarification about this. Anyone have a link?

Went looking, could not find anything...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

If you can use the general retraining rules, I would recommend that.


no on retraining :(

However I also planned on taking a couple levels of Brawler as well (The level 20 version has 13 Swash, 4 Fighter, 2 Brawler, 1 ASL). So could easily take Brawler at level 2 & just you the Brawler ability to fake the ability a while. I do need 3 levels of swash at 5, plus a bunch of feats...


My initial thought was no, but on reflection I can't see why not. The Swashbuckler is a Fighter hybrid, so the source logic is Fighter derived. I certainly can't see it as a gamebreaker.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Found the FAQ. You can only retrain feats granted by the same class as the one granting the retraining.

FAQ wrote:

Fighter: What feats can I retrain at level 4, 8, and so on?

Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or bonus feats from other classes.

You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.

ACG wrote:
Parent Classes: Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.


Thanks TriOmega

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Java Man wrote:
James Risner wrote:

All classes are written from the point of view of single classed characters.

As a result phrases like “upon reaching 4th level”
Mean
“Upon reaching 4th level in this class”

Correct, but this has no bearing on the question at hand.

Actually, it is precisely answering the question at hand. All classes are written single classed. At 4th and every 4 levels has nothing to do with character level and everything to do with class level. Specifically swashbuckler class levels.

Thanks TOZ for the FAQ link.


The question is whether a fighter 1/swashbuckler 4 can retrain the fighter bonus feat with the swashbuckler ability to retrain a bonus feat. Nothing to do with what level the ability is gained at.


Java Man wrote:
The question is whether a fighter 1/swashbuckler 4 can retrain the fighter bonus feat with the swashbuckler ability to retrain a bonus feat. Nothing to do with what level the ability is gained at.

The quote was making the point that you have to be of a certain level in a class so it was relevant with regard to whether or the ability could be changed out. The reason why it mattered was because the OP seemed to be confusing class level and character level. By posting the quote it shows that for only class level mattered.

Also the OP's question was not about retraining, and the quote, while coming after a "retraining" statement was not referring to the retraining comment from TriOmegaZero.


As the OP, and to clarify why I asked: It had a lot more to do with the wording chosen in the swashbuckler description. To the point: It says you can change a feat at 4th level, but the only feat to be legally changed would be the one received at 4th level. This was WEIRD to me, and wondered if there was some reason for the weird wording. My understanding of the rules would have said no it was not allowed, but the wording was very odd to me...


Jason Wedel wrote:
As the OP, and to clarify why I asked: It had a lot more to do with the wording chosen in the swashbuckler description. To the point: It says you can change a feat at 4th level, but the only feat to be legally changed would be the one received at 4th level. This was WEIRD to me, and wondered if there was some reason for the weird wording. My understanding of the rules would have said no it was not allowed, but the wording was very odd to me...

It is weird. Why would you swap out the fourth level feat that you just picked a few seconds ago? My first thought was that this wording might be to cover archetypes that got Bonus Feats earlier than 4th, but I don't see any such archetypes in the ACG.


Exactly, so my reasoning went that maybe (unlikely, but maybe) that there was some errata about trading previous other class Bonus Feats that are identical (such as fighter)


I think it's worth remembering that the 1st printing of the ACG was an editing disaster. They fixed the most egregious problems in the second printing. My guess is that this was just an error that didn't get noticed because it didn't really create any mechanical issues. It's weird to have an option that no one will ever use, but it isn't actually causing any problems.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Java Man wrote:
The question is whether a fighter 1/swashbuckler 4 can retrain the fighter bonus feat with the swashbuckler ability to retrain a bonus feat. Nothing to do with what level the ability is gained at.

You can’t use one class ability to retrain another because single class characters can’t modify other class abilities. This doesn’t have a faq but we know classes are written as single class (they only work on themselves), magus spells faq clarifies you can’t cast from sorcerer levels spells that happen to be on magus list for magus ability FAQ, and the cleric 1/wizard 19 can’t swap wizards spells for healin faq.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Fighter (etc...) Feat Swap ability All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.