Usefulness of a CMB build that still promotes AoO?


Advice


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A mid level (is 8-10 mid level?) Adept Champion Paladin with Dueling (PFS Field Guide, not Ultimate Equipment) and Leveraging weapon can grab some huge bonuses to any CMB check, and a lot more to trip/disarm/re position/dirty trick.

Being conservative with 16 Cha and a "+3" weapon (+2 with Dueling or +1 with Lucky/Dueling) can add +2 from Divine Bond, giving him a total of +6/+12 for CMB checks. When he smites evil, that is another +7. This bonus only gets better as the paladin grows in level getting more bonus from Adept Champion and the free enchantment for Bonded Weapon.

Is it worth all this to be a "master of CMB" if you still promote attacks of opportunity with the vast majority of your options? A paladin going to have a tough time qualifying for Combat Expertise without a dip, a generous point buy, or good stat rolls. The combat maneuvers that require Power Attack instead only work with Dueling. At level 8, that is asking for all your feats (unless Human) just to be great at one or two combat maneuvers.


Don't ever take Combat Expertise, it is a feat tax and nigh worthless. Dirty Fighting is much better and qualifies for Combat Expertise.

Even if you have bad stats in Dex or Int, Dirty Fighting can qualify as Dex13 or Int13, Combat Expertise or Unarmed Strike when concerning post-requisite feats.

You can jump right into Imp Trip or whatever you need after that.


I keep forgetting about Dirty Fighting. The point still semi-stands, since Dirty Fighting is situational.

Is it worth it to spend so much on general combat maneuvers instead of a specific one, if they all still provoke?


Once you have Imp AnyManeuver, it won't provoke. So if you want to be a master of a bunch of different CMB maneuvers, I'd recommend only getting the Improved versions and not the Greater versions.

Or, if you want some versatility in CMB choices, consider Dirty Trick.

You can do just about anything from throwing sand in their eyes to pulling their pants down.


The problem still comes back to the paladin's lack of bonus feats to do this. At level 8 you give up your ability to do anything but two feats without AoO or one if you take Dirty Fighting.


Also, use a reach weapon and most medium or smaller enemies won't be able to AoO you. Not really useful for dirty trick but it works well with trip and some others.


But you're a Paladin, and Paladins are highly feat starved already. If you're going to go with a CMB build, I would just pick one maneuver and max it.

You can boost CMB greatly with items, remember. So if you do choose to go Dirty Fighting, Imp Trip, Imp Disarm, Imp Bull Rush, you can boost your CMB with these three maneuvers with items or weapon enchants.


IMO, if you really want to trip people, grab one of the 10ft Trip weapons. If you trip them, great you now get an AoO if they stand up. If you fail to trip them they provoke if they don't have reach themselves as they approach.

Horsechopper, for instance, has good base damage (1d10 + two handed) Reach, and Trip; and same with a Guisarme (2d4 instead.) Maybe that's not quite what you're looking for, but you can even go nuts and use them 1-handed if you use the Phalanx Fighter build instead.

Side note: I've seen a "cheese" option of using a small-weapon that is a Reach + Trip weapon; meaning it goes from Two-handed to One-handed at a -2 penalty (and of course a damage reduction.) Not bad for saving some feats.


SorrySleeping wrote:

I keep forgetting about Dirty Fighting. The point still semi-stands, since Dirty Fighting is situational.

Is it worth it to spend so much on general combat maneuvers instead of a specific one, if they all still provoke?

All combat maneuvers are situational. But dirty fighting hits the most situations.

Does it have eyes? Blind it
Does it have ears? Deafen it?
Doesn't have either? Do one of another half dozen conditions.

Obviously it isn't too great early on. You need to raise your action economy, while lowering the opponent's action economy.

it peaks with dirty trick master. That lets ou make a previous condition worse by doing another dirty trick. You can then nauseate the enemy (with the prereqs, they need a standard action to cure at that point.... and you can't take standard actions when nauseated).

overall, if you only pick one maneuver to focus on (and paladins are too feat starved to grab multiple), then dirty tricks are the one to go with. There is usually SOMETHING you can do.

At the least, you can give some temporary debuffs until the creature's next turn (blinding it would allow the party rogue to sneak attack at will until then), and you force it to waste most of its turn on curing the condition. if you aim at a caster of a very high DPS creature, then that means you might have saved some of the party. And this can be a great thing to do when you can't get your smites out (either due to number of uses/day, or becuase the GM threw a neutral golem at you).


BTW, the trip quality is almost irrelevant to tripping. It lets you drop your weapon rather than fall prone if you fail your trip check by 10 or more - but you shouldn't be failing by 10 or more very often, and often you'd prefer to fall prone than to drop your main weapon.


avr wrote:
BTW, the trip quality is almost irrelevant to tripping. It lets you drop your weapon rather than fall prone if you fail your trip check by 10 or more - but you shouldn't be failing by 10 or more very often, and often you'd prefer to fall prone than to drop your main weapon.

I hadn't seen their FAQ/Errata. Seems so strange to purposely make a system do a thing, then completely flip it. They seem to have so many weapon types of similar nature so they could specifically make some good at tripping and disarming, then they nulled it all out. Very strange.


See this blog post for using weapons in maneuvers. I'm not sure if the current text of the Trip weapon ability was errata'd in, or if it was part of the change from 3.5, but as it currently stands: "When you use a trip weapon to make a trip attack, if you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped." The disarm quality still gives a +2, making it actually valuable.

Now, regarding your original question:

How's your AC? If it's high enough, it might actually be a good thing to provoke and let your other PCs walk through the enemy's threatened squares safely.

In general, though, I'd suggest taking Dirty Fighting and the Improved X feat of your choice for whichever maneuver you're going to do the most. Assuming, of course, that you're OK with having the "honor, fair play, goodness, and light" class learn how to fight dirty.

Grand Lodge

A single level dip in brawler is the only way to switch well between Combat Maneuvers. The two good maneuvers are grapple and dirty trick.

But there are some things to consider with dirty trick. "This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action" means it of limited use before iterative attacks because the opponent just removes the penalty each round. Blind still makes it easier to hit but you're going to want to delay until after their turn to get the most out of it. THis allows all your allies to benefit from the blind condition Using it strategically is really important to making it useful.

When you get into the multiple attack stage of the game you are at least limiting full attacks. But you're trading your standard for their iterative so it's still a bad trade. If you wait until after their turn so your whole team can attack against a blind opponent you're helping overall. This value is all depends on your team focusing fire.

Quick Dirty trick improves this greater dirty trick get you to trading a standard for a standard, which is good.


Dirty Fighting + Imp/Greater Dirty Trick + Quick Dirty Trick = Costs you one attack to Blind/Sicken/Deafen/Entangle/Dazzle/Shaken a target for 1d4 +1 rounds for every 5CMB you overcome the CMD, and it costs them a standard action to remove it, and if you are flanking the target, you would have a +8 instead of a +4 to perform the maneuver.

Dirty Tricksters are debuff monsters. All of this stuff stacks too. Either your opponent can only use move actions and remove the status effects every round with a standard (therefore they cannot attack you), or they can make their attacks but suffer the stacking debuffs. For only 4 feats, it's crazy good.

Blinded

The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength– and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone***. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

***Prone

The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.***

Dazzled

The creature is unable to see well because of over-stimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls and sight-based Perception checks.

Deafened

A deafened character cannot hear. He takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Perception checks based on sound, takes a –4 penalty on opposed Perception checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components. Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Entangled

The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.

Shaken

A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

Sickened

The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.


I would start with Blind every chance I could, then Sicken, then Shaken (if they're not clearing debuffs).

Use a Trip/Reach weapon too if you want :)

Rogues with this feat path could sneak attack every time their opponents are blinded O.o

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