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On the killing of dragons (spoilers for book 2)


Reign of Winter

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One person is my group is playing a kobold who worships dragons. Seriously, when I had Logrovich fly over the city, he fell to the ground in supplication. So... he's inevitably going to be opposed to any plan that involves killing said dragon, even if a trusted NPC suggests it. And no, it doesn't matter what colour or alignment the dragon is.

But without killing Logrovich, the revolution won't start and the Winter Guard won't let them get near the hut -- and the longer they hang around in Whitethrone, the more irrelevant stuff I have to find or make up for them (they've already gone to the theatre and made friends with some locals).

So, any suggestions on how I can impress on them how vital it is to kill this dragon? Ideally they should decide for themselves that it's the right thing rather than feeling railroaded into it.


What alignment is the kobold? If it's good or possibly neutral, then you can point out just how miserable the metallic white dragon is making the populace. Whitethrone needs to get powned.


The sheet says chaotic-neutral (did I really allow him that?), but as played his alignment is dragonwards.


I can play up how miserable the Winter Guard are making the place, but what is Logrovich himself doing besides sitting in that tower being menacing?

Is he being fed, for example? Is he grabbing people off the street?

Scarab Sages

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Have an NPC he deeply cares about be killed horribly and unprovoked by Logrovich, for nothing but the joy a cat gets from murdering mice. Have that NPC die in his arms, uttering a final tortured bit of wisdom: "Apsu knows he must kill his son"


Hmm. Tricky. My players are all a#$#$+~$s who only care about themselves. And so are their characters. :D

They do still have the slave they bought from the the winter wolf who was going to eat him. There's some disagreement about if and when to release him. I wonder if I could line him up for a Jurassic Park moment?


Huh. I can't say "a~%@~&+~s", even with the British spelling. Interesting.

Silver Crusade

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An idea: Introduce a Kobold npc who shares his reverence for dragons, and is the opposite gender. Just as she and the PC start to fall in love, implement Duiker's suggestion. Make it obvious just how brutally malicious the dragon is, as he gleefully murders someone who worshiped him.


Are kobolds native to anywhere near White throne?

Shadow Lodge

MattZ wrote:
An idea: Introduce a Kobold npc who shares his reverence for dragons, and is the opposite gender.

How closed-minded.


Well yes - the player is gay. More important, there's no reason to think he'd care more for another kobold, regardless of gender, that he'd only just met. It's not going to be enough to overcome his character's bias towards dragons.

Shadow Lodge

How good are your players at coming up with their own solutions? You could present Solveig's request and the reason for doing so, and just let the characters deal with the kobold's bias. Either the characters can convince him, or they can come up with a different way of either keeping the revolt from being immediately quashed or luring the army from the market square.


A few initial points/questions:

- Out of interest why did you allow a Kobold? How did he fit into the initial Taldor village setting? What were his motivations before this became a save the world quest?

- Had you read the full AP before starting to play? I have seen this advice given and it is very solid advice. I didn't do it for this AP either and should have done. I say this because if you have problems with this PC now things will be impossible in Book 4.
A read of the AP would have identified this and revealed the Kobold dragon lover is probably not the best character concept (unless he is mature enough to deal with the confliction coming up)

- Having characters that only care about themselves is problematic. Do they care about the rest of the group or literally just the individual (the latter is a big problem that needs stamping down on. This is not a computer game where you can play solo)

- How do they feel about the quest? Are they just doing it because they would like to survive and because they are forced into it at the portal? If so are they not resentful about this hook? (Some of my players were)

- I am almost certain Kobolds are not native to Irrisen at all (but white dragon based ones could be added in I am sure)

- (An aside for Whitethrone - put in the Soulbound doll factory mentioned in the story chapters. That would be sooo creepy and something I really wanted to do. Make doll versions of the PCs with class levels. Again something I wanted to do)

Regarding moving things along (or trying to):

- How many other party members are they? What classes are they?

Could they defeat Logrivich without the Kobold? I seem to remember he is a little underwhelming as written and I made him harder. But that might have been because I had 2 paladins and 2 wizards with fire spells and I wanted the fight to be memorable as all dragon fights should be

- Do you know what would happen if they went to kill him with the Kobold?
Would the kobold side with the dragon? Given there is a tower of enemies before hand he might be weakened and they can restrain or knock him out. Not an ideal solution but, again, if your player is mature he will be able to separate his characters annoyance and his own. He should know he is making things difficult

- Have they tried to get to the maze without killing Logrivich? What does the book say happens if they don't? Is it just met with more guards? Or does Logrivich attack as well

You should emphasise with visuals how well guarded everything is under his watch. Not just the NPC say so.

>>>But seriously, from memory they are told they need to kill him to distract the guard. Present this to the players (it sounds like you haven't yet).

If they don't go for it then they have to try and get past the guards. The book gives an idea of what one patrol in the OUTER (less important) district is - Winter Wolf and a few Ice Trolls I think. So scale these up, perhaps more mirror men, maybe a Frost giant (they do live in the city) and Logrivich himself. Have them get beaten away and forced to retreat at least once.

Then let them revisit the decision.

It is not railroading if they have the "illusion of choice". They know it is well guarded and that Logrivich is in charge so it would not be unreasonable for them to be turned away by force.
Perhaps then do a chase through the streets (chase cards maybe?) and a nerve racking period of at least a few days where they have to hide from patrols


Serum wrote:
How good are your players at coming up with their own solutions? You could present Solveig's request and the reason for doing so, and just let the characters deal with the kobold's bias. Either the characters can convince him, or they can come up with a different way of either keeping the revolt from being immediately quashed or luring the army from the market square.

I don't think the revolutionaries will even try if Logrivich is alive from the way it is written

Because if they do and get quashed then the campaign grinds to a halt as even if you kill Logrivich at that point there are no revolutionaries to distract the guard.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

a few suggestions:

1) can they come up with another means of starting the revolution? Let them be creative - keep in mind that you are the ultimate decider of what is fun for your players - and having them just twiddle their thumbs is almost certainly not fun for anyone (you or them) - personally as a GM I tend to favor fun over running AP's exactly as written (PFS I have to be less flexible - which is why I love running modules and APs when I can)

2) for example - while he is a threat he actually isn't a very big or old dragon - perhaps the PCs can find some other means of eliminating him as a threat to the revolution than just killing him outright. Likely this would be harder (but again let them be creative) - and keep in mind as well that eventually the party learns both of the opera singer who he keeps as a pet (and who's lover might ask the party to save her) and the children that "Granny" keeps... both of which might be motivation for many parties to deal with the tower with serious force...

3) keep in mind that while the revolution is great it actually doesn't play a huge role in future books (since they take place outside of Irisen) so personally if they don't take up that challenge I would let them explore a bit, pursue some personal plotlines/do some shopping in the city and then have the geas really pull them towards the shackled hut - and just give them some alternative means of getting there. They will miss out on a few things by not doing the tower (XP and treasure) - I would make up some of this with random (or planned by you) encounters while they explore the city.

In my first time running the module case my party took to the challenge in grand fashion - they found a high point elsewhere in the city (i had some side plots I introduced for them to pursue that took them there) and used that as a launching off point to assault the tower via the air - so they dealt with the dragon first. Turned into a truly epic battle over the city in the air (most of the party had some means of flight by this point for this encounter) and they had no need for fireworks after the highly visible way they took out the dragon in mid-air (involving both explosive spells and a barbarian criting to drop the dragon well below neg con in one finishing blow - all in mid-air above the city). I'm running the AP again for a new party soon and I expect they will deal with the tower when they get to it in an entirely different and new form (if they do it directly at all).

My point is don't get too worried if they won't follow the rails perfectly - yes RoW has a lot of rails - but be flexible and adjust to your players and their character's interests (and as others have noted your Kobold player will really enjoy/hate parts of Book 4 - though largely I think running a Kobold through book 4 would be a real blast - and could involve some amazing moments and opportunities.

and this is a great AP for unusual races (says so directly in the player's guide - as a GM I'm pretty flexible in this AP's case about what races my players play)


sadie wrote:
The sheet says chaotic-neutral (did I really allow him that?), but as played his alignment is dragonwards.

One of these days I want to do in depth research on what chaotic neutral actually means

Too many people pick it as use it to justify doing whatever they want. I am pretty sure that is not what it means.

I think lots go very close to CE when trying for CN (a problem for some classes).
I saw a video on youtube where someone claimed a properly played CN character would not be with the adventuring group he was with by the end of the session (probably a little extreme but an interesting thought)

Apologies for the tangent


Alignment is a broad umbrella, open to interpretation at best and detrimental at worst. It never defines the entirety of a character.

When I last played a CN neutral character, I caused trouble everywhere I went, had no loyalties at all, and eventually betrayed the party (with GM agreement) right before the final battle.

I have no problem with a player picking an unusual race or character, particularly if they can role-play it - and in this case he is.

I'd be very happy if the party found an unexpected creative solution. What I'm most worried about it that, without a clear direction, they might kick around Whitethrone going round in circles as they get bored of it. Rule One: it's about having fun.


Agree with what you are saying
My experience with CN is less positive where it is often people wanting to play CE but not having the courage/maturity to discuss it with the GM (again my experience only)

I only asked about the race because it will be a very interesting dilemma in book 4

Have they been presented with the plan yet?

As for kicking around Whitethrone is one of the more interesting Golarioj cities as it is so different. The stories in the AP chapters a good inspiration . But it depends on what the groups motivations are as to how interested they will be

Silver Crusade

Ok, instead of the dragon killing a friend, maybe the kobold can meet the dragon some time before the battle, give him a chance to express his worship to the dragon's face. As the kobold heaps praises on him, the dragon's contemptuous sneer grows. That's when the dragon laughs at him and calls him pathetic etc. Then callously slaps him around and leaves.


MattZ wrote:
Ok, instead of the dragon killing a friend, maybe the kobold can meet the dragon some time before the battle, give him a chance to express his worship to the dragon's face. As the kobold heaps praises on him, the dragon's contemptuous sneer grows. That's when the dragon laughs at him and calls him pathetic etc. Then callously slaps him around and leaves.

It sounds like this Kobold would happily accept his place in the pecking order were the dragon to do this. But I cannot be certain of this


Roleplay: GOOD
Creative solutions: GOOD

I absolutely do not want to punish this player for actually playing his character. I want to avoid a case where the other players say "Stop roleplaying, we need to win this game."

Letting him get the obsequious grovelling out of his system early sounds good. It would please the player - as a kobold he doesn't get much time in the spotlight - and serve to establish for the whole party that the dragon really is a bad guy. If possible, they should see evidence of this before they're asked to kill him.

Grand Lodge

sadie wrote:
Hmm. Tricky. My players are all a%&#!$#@s who only care about themselves. And so are their characters. :D?

Did they all get the

Spoiler:
Geas from the Mantle of the Black Rider
back in book one?

If so, they have to come up with some sort of plan to get to the hut else the thing in the spoiler will start crippling them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

Perhaps you could spread some rumor that Logrivich isn't a real dragon but someone who pretends to be a dragon (with one of the many polymorph spells). The rumor should be convincing enough to make the kobold player believe it. The kobold should see it as sacrilege.
Then let the player deal with it if he discovers he has killed a real dragon after all. Makes for some drama.


Luna eladrin wrote:

Perhaps you could spread some rumor that Logrivich isn't a real dragon but someone who pretends to be a dragon (with one of the many polymorph spells). The rumor should be convincing enough to make the kobold player believe it. The kobold should see it as sacrilege.

Then let the player deal with it if he discovers he has killed a real dragon after all. Makes for some drama.

Oh this is fun and creative

And not outside the realm of possibility in an area controlled by high powered magic users


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sadie wrote:

Roleplay: GOOD

Creative solutions: GOOD

I absolutely do not want to punish this player for actually playing his character. I want to avoid a case where the other players say "Stop roleplaying, we need to win this game."

Letting him get the obsequious grovelling out of his system early sounds good. It would please the player - as a kobold he doesn't get much time in the spotlight - and serve to establish for the whole party that the dragon really is a bad guy. If possible, they should see evidence of this before they're asked to kill him.

I am incredibly interested to hear what your thoughts on Book 4 are. Because as written this character cannot succeed in that book.

However it doesn't sound like they have even been presented with the quest yet so you don't know how the player will react. They might surprise you and immediately suggest some kind of (attempted) compromise that you hadn't even thought of.

>>> In terms of what the player could come up with, do you think it is likely that they would want to try and speak / negotiate with Logrivich?

Because no amount of not wanting to punish him for roleplaying is going to make up for the fact that if he does that Logrivich will not respond positively and attempting to negotiate against an evil dragon when you have limited to no leverage is a phenomenally stupid thing to do. (This might not be the plan at all but you make it sound like he wants to grovel at the feet of the dragon)

Best case is he could laugh and dismiss him as too insignificant to kill perhaps? Or keep him as a pet (in which case he can witness "un-draconic" behaviour)
He might even refuse an audience with the Kobold as I assume he is proud.

An attempt in this direction would cause problems for the party as the tower would likely be on alert. It could be even worse if as part of the discussions the Kobold reveals anything that could betray the plan

What is the rest of the party? Could they beat the dragon without the Kobold if the Kobold was, for example, kept as an amusing pet by Logrivich?

Silver Crusade

The dragon must be defeated.

They can save drsgon life with charada and the kobold will be happy.

Also they can do the standard game and thendrsgon attacks them. No choice there


Mondragon wrote:

The dragon must be defeated.

They can save drsgon life with charada and the kobold will be happy.

Also they can do the standard game and thendrsgon attacks them. No choice there

Charada?

Shadow Lodge

Lanathar wrote:
Mondragon wrote:

The dragon must be defeated.

They can save drsgon life with charada and the kobold will be happy.

Also they can do the standard game and thendrsgon attacks them. No choice there

Charada?

Portuguese for "charade," apparently, which fits well enough. Or just a misspelling of "charisma."


My GMing philosophy is that the story should serve the players, not the other way around.

So, I don't have this book. Is the dragon serving the rulers? What would happen if the kobold's worship of the dragon got it thinking that it ought to be in charge? White Dragons are Chaotic Evil and not too bright anyway. It prob won't go well, but what the heck, it sounds like there just needs to be a diversion to get in the hut, right?


voodoo chili wrote:

My GMing philosophy is that the story should serve the players, not the other way around.

So, I don't have this book. Is the dragon serving the rulers? What would happen if the kobold's worship of the dragon got it thinking that it ought to be in charge? White Dragons are Chaotic Evil and not too bright anyway. It prob won't go well, but what the heck, it sounds like there just needs to be a diversion to get in the hut, right?

They need a diversion in the form of a rise of revolutionaries in order to distract those guarding the hut

The revolutionaries will not rise if there is a chance the dragon will come down and attack them so, as written, no diversion possible if the dragon lives
(I believe he is one of the feared guard captains)

The dragon lives in a tower and if my memory serves correctly is served by a bunch of ice trolls. I am not convinced one kobold worshiping him will be enough. If the whole party did after defeating the trolls it might help things a little?

The story should serve the players. Yes. But plural. In this case significant changes will be needed to suit one player alone unless others in the group share his stance. I agree with your GMing philosophy but counter with the point that no story should ever cater one player alone.

This example is a tricky situation especially if the rest of the group are happy to eliminate the dragon. In that case bending things to the Kobold player is arguably unfair on the others.

It is quite difficult to provide many more suggestions until it is known how both the player and the group react to the suggested plan and whether they have any alternate ideas.

What would happen if the others all want to go ahead and get to the point before the dragon and then knock out the Kobold, kill the dragon, drag him to the maze and you carry on...? This is obviously not what anyone wants to happen but it could. Would the player sulk? Or just the character? Because the player should understand that just because "in character" he would not want to kill the dragon that doesn't have to make a difference "in character" to his allies.

I am really interested to here the update after your next sessions.
When is your next session?


sadie wrote:
But without killing Logrovich, the revolution won't start and the Winter Guard won't let them get near the hut

Actually, the revolution can start once the dragon is gone. Not necessarily killed. So there are multiple options for the players, for example:

1) Bribe the big lizard.
2) Lure it away with an appearant threat or opportunity (e.g. a female dragon).
3) Convince it that it's mistreated by the witches, so it engages them - and well, likely, dies horribly.

If they can't come up with such a plan, maybe a NPC might suggest it. And maybe the alternatives should be more attractive than simply killing the dragon - be it due to more treasure or the joy of a plan working out...


Lanathar wrote:


attempting to negotiate against an evil dragon when you have limited to no leverage is a phenomenally stupid thing to do.

We have a legend in our group of one player who attempted to negotiate with a dragon while being eaten. "Excuse me, good sir, would you mind awfully releasing your fangs for just one moment - oh my, they really are quite sharp - and taking a look at this - ouch - proposal that I believe you will find most intriguing."

As you say, I haven't even presented the mission yet so I don't know for certain how he will react. I only know what his inclination is likely to be, and wanted to address it in advance if possible.

I've made clear so far that there are a lot of soldiers guarding the hut. Like a whole army's worth. If I hadn't, they'd have tried to fight their way in.

When they get the mission I'll make it clear to them that the revolution, their best chance of reaching the hut, hangs on a big public gesture of defeating the dragon. Nobody's stupid enough to move against the Winter Guard while Logrovich is still around.

Depending on where they go and what they do first, I may be able to give them a view of the Winter Guard being evil, or of Logrovich being nasty.

Persuading the dragon to leave is an option, but not an easy one. The kobold is unlikely to be very persuasive, and none of the others will share his motivation. They'd need to make sure his departure is very visible for it to have the desired effect, or everyone's going to be keeping a nervous eye on the skies in case he comes back.

Quote:


What is the rest of the party? Could they beat the dragon without the Kobold if the Kobold...

On a good day, maybe. It's a party of six so one player missing doesn't cripple them. I'm not sure any of them are at all prepared for the fight with Logrovich though. It honestly could end up in a TPK even with all of them.

They're 5th level + 1 mythic tier now, they need to level up to 6th before they face Logrovich. They'll get their second mythic tier after they get the hut.

Quote:


I am really interested to here the update after your next sessions.
When is your next session?

Tomorrow. The order things happen depends on what they choose to do first, but I'll give them a fixed time for the mission briefing if I can.

Or somebody might cancel or turn up two hours late, or they spend the whole night talking gibberish and not playing. It happens.


What is Logrivich in your game?

As written he is CR6. Your team of 6 level 5's with a mythic tier will curb stomp the Logrivich as written

Does he have a tier himself?

In my game I put him up I think 2 age categories due to having 2 fire wizards and 2 paladins in a group of 5. This was probably not necessary but I misunderstood some of the other dragon powers that could have made it higher


I'll probably do the same. Upping age is easier than fiddling with mythic tiers, and he isn't actually a mythic sort of character.


Much of the difficulty posed by Logrovich is environmental: the party can't fly, nor easily ground him.

Does a moving target get a bonus to reflex saves?


sadie wrote:

Much of the difficulty posed by Logrovich is environmental: the party can't fly, nor easily ground him.

Does a moving target get a bonus to reflex saves?

You say that, but I've had dragons grounded by tanglefoot bags.

No, moving does not give you a bonus.


sadie wrote:

Much of the difficulty posed by Logrovich is environmental: the party can't fly, nor easily ground him.

Does a moving target get a bonus to reflex saves?

No but I am pretty sure even partial cover gives a bonus (which is something I only realised recently)

Your party will kick themselves if they don't have a tanglefoot bag. And if they do you might hate them!

After a hit a flying creature gets a DC15 otherwise they cannot fly and fall to the ground. I am now picturing a massive dragon with it's wings stuck together crashing to the ground and taking falling damage

I am saying all this with no knowledge of his reflex save but I assume it is his worst one


They're also not all very experienced players, so they don't necessarily know how best to use the tools they have.


Lanathar wrote:
sadie wrote:

Much of the difficulty posed by Logrovich is environmental: the party can't fly, nor easily ground him.

Does a moving target get a bonus to reflex saves?

No but I am pretty sure even partial cover gives a bonus (which is something I only realised recently)

Your party will kick themselves if they don't have a tanglefoot bag. And if they do you might hate them!

After a hit a flying creature gets a DC15 otherwise they cannot fly and fall to the ground. I am now picturing a massive dragon with it's wings stuck together crashing to the ground and taking falling damage

I am saying all this with no knowledge of his reflex save but I assume it is his worst one

Had it happen. The intent of the encounter was to teach the party about readied actions since I gave it Flyby Attack.

My players now always stock tanglefoot bags.


Adult white dragon: Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +10


I'd prefer the difficulty of the fight to be based on his unique abilities and the environment, not just a higher number.

The action economy is what wins most fights with lots of players ganging up on one bad guy. Keeping several of them busy or distracted would change a lot.

I can add winter guard to the mix. The stairs up the tower form a natural choke point, which means they can be quite a large number but tricking in.


I'll have to check if any of them have a tanglefoot bag... and maybe give one to a guard...


After all, I want them to win. And I want them to feel good about winning.

Still, this all assumes they choose to fight him at all.

Grand Lodge

Ironically, I just re-stated Logrivich last night while prepping for my game night tomorrow. The party will enter the clock tower at that time.

Party has 6 players, at level 6 and have 1 level of mythic. I kept Logivich as a young dragon (I think given how small the tower is, keeping him as a medium sized creature makes the most sense) but I gave him the advanced template and gave him 3 mythic champion tiers. Path abilities include fleet charge, climbing master (not only will it fly, it will climb around in the rafters), Gozreh's Grace (renders arrows useless and maybe tanglefoot bags?) and debating on adding elemental fury - fire to shore up it's one weakness. Lastly, I am maximizing it's hit points. Too much? lol


"Large" isn't that big, really. Just horse-sized, or a 10ft square - although dragons obviously aren't square (or spherical). I think that would fit into the tower just fine. The nest at the top is 30ft x 30ft, and the hole left by the missing clock face is 20ft wide.


The PCs can't be the only one who's trying to find Baba or at least slay the dragon. If the PCs can't deal with Log in a fairly quick manner, intoduce some level 7 Justice League types who'll kill him for being a dragon. If the PCs intervene, Log repays the assist with turning a blind eye when they approach the Hut. If not, the NPC party kills him, and then moves to capture the hut (minus a few members who Log killed.)


Okay, so, mission report.

Basically not a lot happened tonight beyond talking.

The kobold player stayed resolutely pro-dragon as expected. On seeing the dragon perched on a building while the Winter Guard dragged some innocent people away through the streets, he literally got down on the ground to worship it.

The party are currently dressed as one stilyagi and his entourage of weird foreign friends, so that guy is the first point of contact all round - and he was missing. Still, they met the Heralds, got the request to take out Logrovich, and the hint that the entire revolution relied on this.

"Oh god, I'm going to have to kill the rest of the party, aren't I?"

"Could be. You've got a backup character ready, right?"

They went back and forth over it for a while, thankfully not too far off course, but with some major detours.

"Guys, I think we need to stay focused on our mission here: getting to Baba Yaga's hut. I don't think selling out the Heralds to the Winter Guard would get us closer to that. I also don't think killing the dragon would get us closer to it either. Plus it sounds kind of dangerous."

Their main thought at the moment is trying to persuade and/or trick the dragon into leaving. They wondered if the dragon even knew the difference between Baba Yaga and Elvanna, and who it was really loyal to - ie could he be turned to their side?

In the end, they've sent the kobold to the observatory so he can... observe the dragon.

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