I have been listening to an old Pathfinder Podcast (Chronicles) where they discuss modules and APs
There a couple of episodes with a segment called "TPK Theatre" where they discuss encounters that have a very high likelihood of a TPK as written. Their examples are:
- the Shadow Skeletal Triceratops in Book 3 of Council of Thieves and;
- the Fey Queen in Realm of the Fellnight Queen
On a re-posting of City of Golden Death they allude to something in that in the editor commments (as TPK Theatre did not exist then) but I can't recall what encounter they could have been talking about. (Perhaps the dragon?)
The idea of the segment was warning prospective GMs in advance
Potential examples:
- Original Xanesha from Skinsaw Murders (the buffs, stats, SR and environment) : this is one I have actually played
- Vault of Thorns double-cross in Giantslayer (I have heard this is a common one) - Post Brambleblight fight
- Perhaps the conclusion of Feasts of Ravenmoor as the unique monster is very powerful and comes quickly on the heels of another encounter. I think I have seen people suggest removing the DR
I was wondering what other encounters fit the category of highly likely TPKs in APs and Modules from people's experience?
(The idea of the post is not really a list of where people have had TPKs so to speak. Just where conventional wisdom states they are most likely to be. Admittedly a recollection of where groups have TPK'd would be a way of working it out! )
Giantslayer assassins in book 1. The party is asleep. They can easily coup de grace everyone.
Giantslayer assassins in book 1. The party is asleep. They can easily coup de grace everyone.
By my read that encounter does not say they cdg everyone even if they get close enough. They just attack. So no auto hit . Admittedly with sneak attack and people sleeping likely to be not armoured and level one PCs they can still kill people
Do the liquid blades give off light . That would wake people up as would the stabbing
I think the difference between that and what I mentioned is the gm can lean on the group to stay in the same room - perhaps by only having one available
The examples I gave are things that are completely unavoidable (e.g. Two and boss fights) and the gm can't really hint that you need your buffs up and what they are. This happened to me with xanesha back in the day. We uncovered no indication she would be where she was and were not stealthy so she was fully buffed and we were not
There are many fights that can be tpk if different tactics to those written are used. There is a cleric in book 1 of reign of winter who is supposed to use a scroll to raise zombies and fight with a sword
If you spam the 2d6 negative channels on a level 1 group it is an easy tpk. But you are not supposed to. They are only for healing the zombies. That one is still difficult mind you
But what I am getting at is some of the others mentioned are very high tpk likelihood if you use the encounter and tactics as written
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Well, I'm not sure about TPK but as far as mortality rates the last encounter of the third book of Carrion Crown kills A LOT of characters.
I haven't read the exact text in a long time but if you approach the encounter head on you are getting hit by a number of skeleton warriors with bows while the BBEG of the book casts fly and greater invisibility and then flies out of the tower and hits the party with Circle of Death.
There are a number of threads about potentially providing pre-encounter hints that the spell will be in use just because of how many characters its killed.
Assuming normal party of 4 PCs with 15 (possibly 20) point buy with non-min/max players like my former (of 20+ years) group. Off the top of my head...
Book One: Burnt Offerings (Dungeon level 2).
1) Malfeshnekor. A CR7 encounter for at best a level 4 party. The module states PCs should be level 4 by the end of the module. Hopefully GMs allow the players to level up before dungeon level two of Thistletop.
2) Nualia and the Yeth Hound. The party will most likely be low on resources and these are cramped quarters, unlucky rolls can hammer that extra nail. My group was in this exact position (before the hardcover), I had them encounter the Yeth Hound elsewhere.
3) The crypt. This room can upgrade itself to a Shadow factory with an unlucky roll or three. YMMV. I accidentally forgot to look at the PFRPG changes to Shadows and TPK'ed my group. Ouch.
Book Three: Hook Mountain Massacre
1) Fort Rannick, the initial incursion. Potential TPK based on the bravado of your group and/or lack of stealthy tactics.
2) Black Magga. Umm... yeah. The good book says Magga scrams on the fourth round. Survivng until then makes me happy that we GMs have a screen to roll behind. A large dose of PC testosterone will result in a TPK.
Book One: Stolen Land.
Stag Lord's Fort - The Fort Rannick of Kingmaker, now with even faster acting TeePeeKay™ due to lower levels. See Runelords above.
Book Two: Trial Of the Beast.
The Aberrant Promethean. Without the Bondslave Thrall and the Beast of Lepidstadt....
Giantslayer assassins in book 1. The party is asleep. They can easily coup de grace everyone.By my read that encounter does not say they cdg everyone even if they get close enough. They just attack. So no auto hit . Admittedly with sneak attack and people sleeping likely to be not armoured and level one PCs they can still kill people
Whether the book says they do or not is irrelevant. The GM is ultimately who decides this.
Do the liquid blades give off light . That would wake people up as would the stabbing
Waking up to the blades is also up to the GM since there is nothing in the description to indicate they emit light, and even if they did, they still have to make their perception check with a substantial penalty.
Getting stabbed with a coup de grace would certainly wake them up long enough to realize they were dying. Even without a coup de grace, they are armorless, and helpless. Not only that, but they are likely prone, and weaponless.
I think the difference between that and what I mentioned is the gm can lean on the group to stay in the same room - perhaps by only having one available
It really doesn't matter. There's enough bad guys to kill most (the whole? I don't remember if there were 3 or 4 of them) of the party in the first round, allowing them to sneak into other rooms on the next round or gang up on the remaining members in the next round.
The examples I gave are things that are completely unavoidable (e.g. Two and boss fights) and the gm can't really hint that you need your buffs up and what they are. This happened to me with xanesha back in the day. We uncovered no indication she would be where she was and were not stealthy so she was fully buffed and we were not
I think this is unavoidable if the GM plays it the way it is written allowing the assassins to attack in a manner that makes sense - a coup de grace on helpless characters that failed their perception check certainly makes sense for a hired assassin. I had to give all of my players substantial cheats (once the fight started) to avoid a TPK after they ALL failed their perception checks. Remember, this is only the 2nd encounter of the book, too.
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In fact, the whole first book is one continuous TPK opportunity if it is run as intended. It's a gauntlet in which you level up without the ability to rest and recoup (I cheated on this, too).
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I can't believe I didn't think of the neverending orc battle from book 1 Giantslayer.
By the reading of the text the party isn't even assumed to rest before the final encounter of the book against a powerful Alchemist.
I believe it's more than 20 orcs (some with class levels) and every single one of them has ferocity.
** spoiler omitted **
I already brought up the reign of winter one and noted that the tactics do not include using negative channels against players
Same with the Giantslayer point above (assassins). Whilst that is still a very likely TPK as written it does not say they use coup de grace.
Regardless of what the GM decides to do - the book does not say that is what they should do
If the GM decides to take an already deadly encounter and make it harder by not using the tactics as described in the book then they need to question their motivations for running a game (in my opinion).
It was things like that - made apparent by loving references to KillerGM and Turin the Mad that made my group turn against our original GM
My question was focusing on encounters run as written. As a creative GM could probably turn half of most books into potential TPKs.
In Realm of the Fellnight Queen the tactics against a level 8 party who don't really know what they are up against:
@Lanathar:
Maybe at your table. I assure you, I am no antagonistic GM. My players and I both desire realistic fights -- if an enemy has access to something as written, they will use it to their full advantage. My players do not expect pulled punches and in fact lose all desire to play if they think I am doing so.Rohkar uses negative channeling to heal the zombies, yes, but can also use it to harm the living. The tactics given in all statblocks are a rough outline of what they might do, not a hardlined "Rohkar MAY ONLY channel energy to heal the undead." It doesn't say he uses his Murderous Command or Hold Person spells in the tactics statblock, would he not use it at your table?
Even if we were to play at your table and only run things exactly as written: the frost skeletons are super deadly. I had forgotten about them until I pulled up the PDF to check Rohkar's tactics, but the skeletons in the lodge are frosty and they will absolutely murder a party. Extra damage on hit and then an explosion? This is versus level 1-2 characters, a high chance of death is putting it mildly. Even with no tactics beyond "the frost skeletons run at the nearest opponent" PCs are semi-likely to die to them.
Don't go around throwing WRONGBADFUN accusations at people if you have no context.
The original part of my question was regarding encounters that could be considered too deadly even when played as envisaged by the author (i.e. per the tactics box)
There is enough discussion of RoW boards that seem to indicate that Rokhar is not assumed to damage PCs with channel and that is baked into the encounter. I have a feeling that if those were his tactics then some of his support might have been removed.
I understand your point about his other spells but my interpretation is to play through his tactics as written first, Cast the spells mentioned, channel to heal the undead and then if nothing is left look at the other spells.
For Rohkar it does not say - turn invisible to get into position and wait for skeletons to provide a distraction and sheild. Channel negative energy. Repeat until everyone is dead.
(This was the reason I posed the module example in the spoiler box. The tactics actually put the enemy in a position where they cannot be reached, seen, charged etc, and then suggests they spam very high save save or suck spells until everyone is incapacitated.)
I did also say that a GM could turn many many encounters into TPKs if they did what you said and used the full stat block.
But it is not what I was actually asking. I was asking if there is anything identified that could clearly be interpreted as a mistake in the design process like in Council of Thieves where many many parties get wiped in the middle of Book 3.
I have never heard the term WRONGBADFUN before so was not clear if that is what I was saying. It doesn't come across as any kind of accusation to me - just a general story and an anecdote about my own tyrannical GM
I did an internet search and apparently it makes reference to 'as long as everyone is having fun'
If you guys have players who enjoy regular TPKs or who are happy to be wiped out on the second encounter of an AP and have to roll up new characters - and not walk out and refuse to play - then I envy you.
The giant slayer example doesn't say they "use the attack action" it just says they attack. And a coup DE grace is Cera only a type of attack.
Thus, coup DE grace is totally within the realm of their tactics if the PCs did not wake up via perception checks or post a guard.
You are quite right it is a type of attack
I guess I have always considered it an unwritten rule not to use it on PCs.
For example I am not sure I have every seen Ghoul tactics say that they paralyze opponents and then CDG them. Even when it makes complete sense.
I think dangling the threat of CDG is fun but to actually do it is another matter (assassin or no). Especially when it is not referenced directly
And it stems from a point I mentioned above. I come from a place where people willing to play are limited. I would never get to play if I played every encounter to it's capacity
All that said the Giantslayer assassin encounter is a big issue because even without CDG it can easily cause a TPK, especially if the PCs split up. The module assumes they do not but doesn't force them to be together
Well we have different opinions on the CDG based on what I have written above.
In truth I have no idea how my players would act but am just guessing. I will pose that hypothetical to them next time I see them as it will be interesting
I clearly have such a taboo against it that it doesn't even cross my mind as an "attack" action. Clearly something I need to change
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To get back on topic, are we allowed to list PFS scenarios as well?
Because if so, The Golemworks Incident has a very high TPK chance.
Oh! And any turn where you don't move you get attacked by giant acid syringes that do 4d6 acid damage and have a potential "command" spell effect if you fail a save.
So yeah, pretty easy TPK there. When I ran it we were playing with 7 characters and still almost had a TPK. Ended up killing the Zen Archer Monk, Feebleminding the Magus, and nearly killing 4 others.
To get back on topic, are we allowed to list PFS scenarios as well?
Because if so, The Golemworks Incident has a very high TPK chance.
** spoiler omitted **
So yeah, pretty easy TPK there. When I ran it we were playing with 7 characters and still almost had a TPK. Ended up killing the Zen Archer Monk, Feebleminding the Magus, and nearly killing 4 others.
PFS scenarios are fair game
I haven't run enough to be able to add much. Apparently there is one from Season 5 with an evil 3rd level cleric with the channel issue above. This one has it in their tactics to use it and it can be played at tier 1:
"She uses her channel energy class feature to harm her enemies
or heal her minions, depending on what she feels would be
most effective"
No supporting minions in the encounter though...
The PFS scenario you mentioned sounds brutal
In Hell's Bright Shadow: Nox. My poor PCs never stood a chance as as she was past the level cap for the sorc's save/loses and the others simply lacked the damage to burn her down before she cut them in 2 hits a pop with power attacked glaive hits.
Nox is a very swingy encounter and can very easily be a dead on arrival encounter if the party composition is off. Trivial if you have something like a slumber witch or a ton of high DPR bursters, but it's a nightmare if you don't.
+1 to this. Nox destroyed my group twice. Heavy damage, lethal critical hits, regeneration and dimension door. Without a will save shut down or high DPR she's almost unstoppable.
There are many fights that can be tpk if different tactics to those written are used. There is a cleric in book 1 of reign of winter who is supposed to use a scroll to raise zombies and fight with a sword
If you spam the 2d6 negative channels on a level 1 group it is an easy tpk. But you are not supposed to. They are only for healing the zombies. That one is still difficult mind you
But what I am getting at is some of the others mentioned are very high tpk likelihood if you use the encounter and tactics as written
That happened in one game on the boards here. TPK and the players just didn't want to have to make new PCs and trudge all the way back to the cabin so the game ended.