Hello all, I was wondering if anybody knew of a way to gain magic item creation feats without having a caster level. I already know about the 'Master Craftsman' feat, but I was wondering if there were any other options.
Impossible Bloodline grants Craft Wondrous, with Improved Eldritch Heritage.
Alchemists aren't technically casters, and get Brew Potions, and potentially Craft Construct with the Promethean Disciple Discovery. The Experimenter Vigilante Archetype gets both these feats as well.
Kineticists can take Kinetic Crafter to count their Kineticist levels as Caster Levels for item creation feats.
Without a caster level what is the point? The feats do nothing for you. That's why Master Craftsman lets you use skill ranks as your caster level.
Without a caster level what is the point? The feats do nothing for you. That's why Master Craftsman lets you use skill ranks as your caster level.
Sorry, I worded it poorly. What I should have said was "How can I craft magical items without being a spellcaster or having a spell-like ability."
I'm playing an avenger vigilante whose social identity is a blacksmith and I'd like him to be able to eventually craft magical arms and armor. The minor magic vigilante talent isn't an option for in-character reasons, so I was exploring other options besides just Master Craftsman.
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If you are OK with material from companies other than Paizo, there is the Tinkerer class in the soon to be released New Paths Compendium harcover that can do this. It's not the main focus of the class, but it's certainly part of it :)
Well, at the simplest answer, if you don't qualify for a feat you can't use it. Every magic item creation feat has a caster level as a prerequisite.
Well, at the simplest answer, if you don't qualify for a feat you can't use it. Every magic item creation feat has a caster level as a prerequisite.
Most prerequisities can be skipped at the cost of heightening the DC.
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Well, at the simplest answer, if you don't qualify for a feat you can't use it. Every magic item creation feat has a caster level as a prerequisite.Most prerequisities can be skipped at the cost of heightening the DC.
You can skip prerequisites during item creation, yes.
What Azten is referring to is needing a specific caster level to select the item creation feat in the first place. You can't bypass that without something else saying you can (like Master Craftsman does). For example, you normally need a caster level of at least 3 to select Craft Wondrous Item as one of your feats.
And that generally does not apply to bonus feats.
You still need to meet the requirements even for bonus feats (usually). The times you don't need to meet the requirements are generally when a class gives a specific feat instead of a choice, like the wizard giving Scribe Scroll for free.
For the bonus feats you have a choice in gaining, you must meet the requirements normally. If a class works differently, it specifically states so (like the ranger does for the combat style bonus feats).
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The toilcrafter trait allows you to use your craft skill as your CL for magic arms and armors.
This means you can then take Craft Magic Arms and Armors, although you will have to roll higher than most, or partner up with your party buddies that have spells.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/toilcrafter-dwarf-religion-t rait/
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you have at least 1 rank. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purpose of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. You may craft +1 armor, weapons, or shields (with no special qualities), substituting your rank in the chosen skill for your caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. Crafting in this fashion takes twice as long as normal. These items cannot be upgraded with new abilities.
The toilcrafter trait allows you to use your craft skill as your CL for magic arms and armors.
This means you can then take Craft Magic Arms and Armors, although you will have to roll higher than most, or partner up with your party buddies that have spells.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/toilcrafter-dwarf-religion-t rait/
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you have at least 1 rank. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purpose of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. You may craft +1 armor, weapons, or shields (with no special qualities), substituting your rank in the chosen skill for your caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. Crafting in this fashion takes twice as long as normal. These items cannot be upgraded with new abilities.
Damn, that is almost exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately it's limited to worshipers of Droskar and it's too stifled by limiting it to just +1 gear (especially since you still need to take the feat). Good find, though.
Didn't see the religion restriction in the trait per say, in any case i imagine that is something that can be discuseed with your DM.
As for the limit to +1 gear, the way I read it is thus:
Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you have at least 1 rank. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purpose of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat.
This is ONE PART. It ends at the dot, and it means you can use your craft rank to qualify for the CL for CMA&A.
And THEN:
You may craft +1 armor, weapons, or shields (with no special qualities), substituting your rank in the chosen skill for your caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. Crafting in this fashion takes twice as long as normal. These items cannot be upgraded with new abilities.
This is a separate ability from the other one, and means that even WITHOUT CMA&A you can still make some +1 stuff. Useful in early games, and then you take CMA&A and make better shit.
Didn't see the religion restriction in the trait per say, in any case i imagine that is something that can be discuseed with your DM.
As for the limit to +1 gear, the way I read it is thus:
Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you have at least 1 rank. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purpose of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat.
This is ONE PART. It ends at the dot, and it means you can use your craft rank to qualify for the CL for CMA&A.
And THEN:
You may craft +1 armor, weapons, or shields (with no special qualities), substituting your rank in the chosen skill for your caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. Crafting in this fashion takes twice as long as normal. These items cannot be upgraded with new abilities.
This is a separate ability from the other one, and means that even WITHOUT CMA&A you can still make some +1 stuff. Useful in early games, and then you take CMA&A and make better s&@#.
No. The only thing you can make is +1 weapons. You only have an effective caster level for 2 things: qualifying for CMA&A, and making +1 weapons. The trait doesn't give you a caster level equivalent for any other purpose.
Nothing says, or even implies, you can craft magic items without the relevant feat. The item creation rules require the appropriate feat, and nothing about this trait changes that.
Didn't see the religion restriction in the trait per say, in any case i imagine that is something that can be discuseed with your DM.
As for the limit to +1 gear, the way I read it is thus:
Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you have at least 1 rank. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purpose of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat.
This is ONE PART. It ends at the dot, and it means you can use your craft rank to qualify for the CL for CMA&A.
And THEN:
You may craft +1 armor, weapons, or shields (with no special qualities), substituting your rank in the chosen skill for your caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. Crafting in this fashion takes twice as long as normal. These items cannot be upgraded with new abilities.
This is a separate ability from the other one, and means that even WITHOUT CMA&A you can still make some +1 stuff. Useful in early games, and then you take CMA&A and make better s&@#.
No. The only thing you can make is +1 weapons. You only have an effective caster level for 2 things: qualifying for CMA&A, and making +1 weapons. The trait doesn't give you a caster level equivalent for any other purpose.
Nothing says, or even implies, you can craft magic items without the relevant feat. The item creation rules require the appropriate feat, and nothing about this trait changes that.
Yes, and if you qualify for CMA&A and then actually take it, you can use your spellcraft to craft magic items, regardless of if you have a CL or not.
In no way am i saying you can craft without the feat in the above exemple, aside from when I say you can craft +! armors and weapons without CMA&A
I guess I should ask: why not take Master Craftsman? Wouldn't that be in line with what, say, a talented blacksmith would want as his or her 5th-level feat? After all, that +2 will help with those prerequisites you're missing. It mitigates a little noncaster penalty, it does delay (yay, retraining? At least, that's what I did) but you still can get in on making magic, and it fits your cover identity to where no-one would think twice to see that you have textbooks on mystic forging if they ransack your shop.
I guess I should ask: why not take Master Craftsman? Wouldn't that be in line with what, say, a talented blacksmith would want as his or her 5th-level feat? After all, that +2 will help with those prerequisites you're missing. It mitigates a little noncaster penalty, it does delay (yay, retraining? At least, that's what I did) but you still can get in on making magic, and it fits your cover identity to where no-one would think twice to see that you have textbooks on mystic forging if they ransack your shop.
Basically because it's not very good. If I wanted to be able to craft magic weapons, armor, and bows I'd have put skills ranks into all three skills and have to take the Master Craftsman feat three times (which I don't think is even legal by RAW).
Now don't get me wrong, if it comes to it I'll take Master Craftsman (probably for Craft (Weapons), I just wanted to explore other options first.
Somehow getting advanced armor training would net you both master crafter armor and CMA&A if you can somehow swing it?
Also, and this is completely unRAW, but at my table we divide craft by materials rather than by category of items.
So we have craft: blacksmithing(or metalworking)
Craft woodworking
Craft leatherworking.
It's more all purpose but still limits you.
Talk to your gm
Somehow getting advanced armor training would net you both master crafter armor and CMA&A if you can somehow swing it?
As far as I can tell the most efficient way to do so would be to take three levels in fighter and then take the Advanced Armor Training feat.
It's not a bad idea, as a three level dip in fighter doesn't really hurt an Avenger Vigilante too much, other than delaying some of the scaling talents that key off vigilante class levels. Definitely something to consider, thank you.
If I wanted to be able to craft magic weapons, armor, and bows I'd have put skills ranks into all three skills and have to take the Master Craftsman feat three times (which I don't think is even legal by RAW).
You can take Master Craftsman only once. And yes, it's weaker than simply being a spellcaster: You have to pay the feat tax, effectively need a higher level to start and your choices are limited. Basically it belongs to the common feat dips into class features where players can explore other classes a little bit, which might make them try these classes later.
That said, crafting is still powerful. As a noncaster, you usually get more out of Craft (weapons) than a caster, because you rely more on your weapon(s). It not only cuts down the price, but also allows you to create custom gear. In the combination that means: You can sell all these random weapons you find, and use the money to craft something useful with the same enhancement bonus, without extra cost. Assuming enough downtime, paying two feats for this option is actually a bargain buy...
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Sorry, I worded it poorly. What I should have said was "How can I craft magical items without being a spellcaster or having a spell-like ability."
I'm playing an avenger vigilante whose social identity is a blacksmith and I'd like him to be able to eventually craft magical arms and armor. The minor magic vigilante talent isn't an option for in-character reasons, so I was exploring other options besides just Master Craftsman.
Mastercraftsman is a good feat, if this is the route you are going for.
Though regarding a social identity, the blacksmith is really a full time job and something very noticable if they go missing at odd hours the day (a medieval town needs it's blacksmith). Perhaps you are an apprentice blacksmith, or something similiar, and are able to create magic items only through cooperative crafting with your NPC master Blacksmith. An apprentice that goes missing at odd hours would not be that unusual.
Um, your character, is the fluff already set? There is a vigilante archetype that gets armor training. Bit extreme flavor wise.
Masked Maiden
Gets armor training and armor mastery in place of social talents at 3/7/11/15/19.However, Master Craftsman and Craft Arms&Armor the advanced armor training gives you can only make ARMOR, not weapons.
Haha, yeah, the fluff's definitely set in stone. And even if it wasn't this character is actually one I'm playing in Curse of the Crimson Throne, so that archetype really wouldn't make any sense. But yeah, it sucks since its an option that's simultaneously really close at hand but also couldn't be further away, metaphorically speaking.
On a side note, If your willing to take 3 levels in fighter to make this work, have you considered just taking 3 levels in a casting class?
An even easier solution would be for me to take the "Minor Magic (Sp)" Vigilante talent, as it'd give me a full CL spell-like ability so I wouldn't have any issue qualifying for crafting feats. Unfortunately my character doesn't do magic, for personal reasons, so the conventional methods of getting a CL are off the table. I know, I know, I really boxed myself in, but I like to build according to the backstory I've developed for him even if it's sub-optimal.
Though regarding a social identity, the blacksmith is really a full time job and something very noticable if they go missing at odd hours the day (a medieval town needs it's blacksmith). Perhaps you are an apprentice blacksmith, or something similiar, and are able to create magic items only through cooperative crafting with your NPC master Blacksmith. An apprentice that goes missing at odd hours would not be that unusual.
Like a mentioned a couple lines up he's actually a character in Curse of the Crimson Throne so even if his social identity needs to "disappear" for a bit, there's definitely no shortage of blacksmiths in a city that size. Besides that, I bought a heavy wagon,a pack animal, and a forge (from downtime rules) so he's actually a self-employed travelling blacksmith, so customers not seeing him for a a couple days would be pretty normal anyways.
CL from spellikes no longer counts for prerequisites so far as I know.
8 levels of brawler (for all metal arms and armor), 3 levels of fighter and a feat (for armor only), or 2 feats.
Seem to be your choices.
So after a little digging I found out you're right. It's dated for 2015 so I've definitely not been paying attention. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Though regarding a social identity, the blacksmith is really a full time job and something very noticable if they go missing at odd hours the day (a medieval town needs it's blacksmith). Perhaps you are an apprentice blacksmith, or something similiar, and are able to create magic items only through cooperative crafting with your NPC master Blacksmith. An apprentice that goes missing at odd hours would not be that unusual.Like a mentioned a couple lines up he's actually a...
I hate that site cuts off long posts.
Even if in a big city, blacksmiths won't be able to disappear unnoticed. Smithing is loud. The blacksmith require regular shipments of materials, which requires the smithy to be attended. Plus it would be really expensive for the blacksmith to operate like this. Fuel for the forge is expensive and benefits from the flames never going out. More so if you smelt metal (a steel foundry, for example, would be destroyed if you allowed it to cool. It works while the metal flows, but if it solidfies in the wrong spot you'll have a real problem).
A traveling blacksmith...only in a fantasy setting, I suppose. A quality blacksmith requires a full shop, with proper forge and so forth. I suppose, a magically smithy that fits in your pocket could result in a traveling blacksmith with the ability make magic items on the go.... Should still consider looking into the timetables required to make magic items. Certainly not something a traveling character could do normally. I suppose with ship, or similiar sized vehicle, you could set up a smithy, but it's a bad idea on a wooden ship...
You could still do simple repairs and smithing on the go. Cold Hammering and such, but you need a proper smithy for a lot of things.
Method 1 = Master Craftsman feat:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/feats.html#master-craftsman
Method 2 = Signature Skill feat:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/skillsAndOptions/skillUnlocks. html#signatureSkill
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/skillsAndOptions/skillUnlocks. html#craft
Method 3 = Get GM approval to use splatbooks that aren't on Paizo's PRD
I think in a previous thread, they worked out that the Craft skill that gives you the most mileage (with the one time that you can take Master Craftsman) was Tailoring. Just off the top of my head that covers your Physical Stat Boost (make a cloth belt), Mental Stat Boost (headband), and Cloak of Resistance, which are three big-ticket items that most every character wants. Master Armorer from Advanced Armor Training can cover armor, but strangely there is no analogous Advanced Weapon Training for crafting magic weapons. Of course, you could be the party Magic Arms & Armor Smith by taking Master Craftsman as a regular feat and leaving the cloth stuff to the party Wizard with Craft Wondrous Item, provided your DM isn't such a stickler for RAW that he doesn't let you take Master Craftsman twice even via Master Armorer.
Though regarding a social identity, the blacksmith is really a full time job and something very noticable if they go missing at odd hours the day (a medieval town needs it's blacksmith). Perhaps you are an apprentice blacksmith, or something similiar, and are able to create magic items only through cooperative crafting with your NPC master Blacksmith. An apprentice that goes missing at odd hours would not be that unusual.Like a mentioned a couple lines up he's actually a...I hate that site cuts off long posts.
Even if in a big city, blacksmiths won't be able to disappear unnoticed. Smithing is loud. The blacksmith require regular shipments of materials, which requires the smithy to be attended. Plus it would be really expensive for the blacksmith to operate like this. Fuel for the forge is expensive and benefits from the flames never going out. More so if you smelt metal (a steel foundry, for example, would be destroyed if you allowed it to cool. It works while the metal flows, but if it solidfies in the wrong spot you'll have a real problem).
A traveling blacksmith...only in a fantasy setting, I suppose. A quality blacksmith requires a full shop, with proper forge and so forth. I suppose, a magically smithy that fits in your pocket could result in a traveling blacksmith with the ability make magic items on the go.... Should still consider looking into the timetables required to make magic items. Certainly not something a traveling character could do normally. I suppose with ship, or similiar sized vehicle, you could set up a smithy, but it's a bad idea on a wooden ship...
You could still do simple repairs and smithing on the go. Cold Hammering and such, but you need a proper smithy for a lot of things.
I definitely don't know anything about smithing in real life, but I was just using the available Pathfinder materials to make it work. Like, the heavy wagon is 8 squares large.
Huge Land vehicle
Squares 8 (10 ft. by 20 ft.; 5 feet high); Cost 100 gp
And the forge is 8-16 squares large, so it should technically fit.
Create 9 Goods, 1 Influence, 8 Labor (370 gp); Time 20 days; Size 8–16 squares
A Forge includes a hearth, an anvil, a slack tub, metalworking tools, and other appropriate materials for shaping iron and other metals. A Forge counts as masterwork artisan’s tools for up to three people working on metalworking skills such as Craft (armor) and Craft (weapons).
And while, yes, it probably would be more cost prohibitive in the real world, we're not sticklers to quite that degree. All this is basically so I can still craft even if we end up leaving the city.
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I definitely don't know anything about smithing in real life, but I was just using the available Pathfinder materials to make it work. Like, the heavy wagon is 8 squares large.
Lol. Yeah, they are about the same size, the wagon and the smithy.
For real life, you would destroy the wagon very quickly if hammering at anvil mounted on the wagon. And even if you got some "shocks" or otherwise sought to reduce recoil from hammering, the issue is that you reducing the impact means you need to hit the anvil harder to get any meanful results, since those shocks are absorbing your kinetic energy. As is a steel anvil is sometimes too soft. Additionally, even without fire, hitting the anvil with the hammer will cause both the hammer and the anvil to heat up due to the kinetic energy beign absorbed. Bending metal also heats it up.
But sure, with magic...
For a realistic traveling smith, likely you'd have smaller anvil (20-50lbs), a heavy wookbench, and some tools - all in storage, then you'd stop the wagon and set up a makeshift area to smith on site. You'd do short repairs and jobs, since your wagon likely doesn't have the supplies for any longterm projects. Fish hooks, chain, parts for wagon wheels, nails, temporary fixes on armor or shields, and so forth.
Lead, which only recently was learned to be poisonous, is a good material with which a traveling smith could make things out of or make repairs to armor. No welding, but soddering should be doable with a campfire (not the same soddering you think of with electronics, but the princible is similar). For crafting weapons and tools, you'd start with annealled rods of the steel or premade blade "blanks", then hammer or bend into the right shape, tempering should be doable with a hot fire. You can sharpen them too. If the road isn't bumpy, you should able to sharpen blades while moving (provided someone else is steering, sharpening blades requires your full attention).
But none of this is even mastercrafting. You'll need to limit your hammering on steel, since you can't really anneal the metal without a forge. This means it will become brittle if you hammer it too much. Brittle means it won't bend, and will instead chip or tear. You won't be able to melt steel or iron, with even copper or bronze being a challenge (with regards to copper and bronze, the issue is that the material doesn't retain heat well, so you need an insulated forge to melt it, even though technically it should melt in a campfire. Which is why copper is used for heat sinks in computers).
Alluminum is actually a new metal from a smithing stance, since they didn't how know to extract it into a usable metal in the medieval time period and relied on finding chunks. If you did see some alluminum, it would be regarded as a precious metal and used for Jewelry. I've been told Napoleon had a ring made of alluminum which was very pricy.
With magic, you could probably get around most of physical limitations to smithing.
I will note that the effort involved for smithing and the damage done to your body probably rivals adventuring. Smiths and Welders are very strong people, but life expectancy is not good. It's bad for your lungs, ears, eyes, and is very physically taxing. And that's in addition to any accidental burns, cuts, or bludgeon damage inflicted on accident If your character is a smith, they probably aren't also an adventurer (Though as far as backgrounds go, they could have been a smith at another point in life. Very common for dwarves.). Lots of modern options to increase life expectancy.
Since you've never done any smithing, think of it as intense physical exercise + extremely loud noises + smoking + staring at the sun....yeah, not very good for the body. But as a result, smiths and welders get paid a lot and are often a respect member of a town or community.
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Portable coal forges are a thing... probably not advisable to use while moving, and too bulky to carry around, but should be easy enough to install on a 20ft long wagon.
Coal was only used as a heat source in the China during the medieval time period. They had coal in europe, they just hadn't started burning it yet...
Otherwise, yes, I totally agree. It would still be very heavy and it would get very warm, so unlikely something for a wooden wagon to use.
But with magic, you should be able to whip up some low level device that uses Elemental Spell on Ray of Frost to a make a Fire Ray that functions as a very continous heat source for smithing and costs very little to opperate. Magic is really overpowered when used for utility purposes. Even the 0-level Create Water is a huge game changer for everything in our history.
Coal was only used as a heat source in the China during the medieval time period. They had coal in europe, they just hadn't started burning it yet...
What? Coal was used by the Romans as well as medieval Europeans, and was used in China well before the medieval period.
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Coal was only used as a heat source in the China during the medieval time period. They had coal in europe, they just hadn't started burning it yet...What? Coal was used by the Romans as well as medieval Europeans, and was used in China well before the medieval period.
I'll have to double check, something I heard a while ago. EDIT: Hmm...guess I'm thinking of the dark ages. Looks like they had coal in the "high" medieval time perior, around the 12th century, here or https://riseofcoalinbritain.wordpress.com/the-high-middle-ages-1066-to-1347 /
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Otherwise, yes, I totally agree. It would still be very heavy and it would get very warm, so unlikely something for a wooden wagon to use.
It doesn't look THAT heavy.
Not exactly your typical brick box, but not beyond the limits of Golarion Metallurgy. I don't think magic is necessary.
That forge is powered by coke, not coal. So now we've jumped to 1589 for europe. And, that thing looks very heavy, especially once filled with coal or coke.
Regarding Weight, a quick google search reveals that Coal (not Coke) weighs 47-55lbs per cubic foot. Can't find the weight for coke.
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If you are OK with material from companies other than Paizo, there is the Tinkerer class in the soon to be released New Paths Compendium harcover that can do this. It's not the main focus of the class, but it's certainly part of it :)
Hey everyone! Just wanted to let you know the Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover is now available right here on Paizo.com!!
Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover
Includes the Tinkerer plus 11 other new classes (plus archetypes, spells, feats, and more)