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TL:DR - Need suggestions for a Gnome Rogue/Ninja-ish type that can take advantage of the Gnomish Illusion strengths. Anything Paizo has published is legal. One Trait must be from the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP. 20 pt. Buy
So, my buddy is starting a "Couples Pathfinder" using the Curse of the Crimson Throne Adventure Pack. There's six of us, and the three ladies are Pathfinder rookies. The GM has allowed the rookies to play basically whatever OP'd character they can create, so long as it uses Paizo source material (no third party).
My wife, being a diminutive 4'11", wants to play a Gnome. No exceptions. She's a trickster and a pain in the *** in real life, so she identifies with Gnomes. She also wants to cast Illusions, since Gnomes get some good bonuses to Illusion spells. Lastly, she wants to be sneaky, a "street rat" as she puts it, with lots of skills and tricks. Lastly, she feels useless if she isn't doing SOMETHING in combat, and gets down on herself if she isn't pulling her weight during battles. She doesn't have to dominate, but she at least wants to contribute.
Her desires point me toward the Arcane Trickster, but the AT is very weak in the early levels. There has to be a better way. I have explored the Threatening Illusion feat in combination with Ghost Sound/Magical Lineage, but it won't become useful till later in the characters career. Even then, it's dubious how useful it will be. It sounds like a cool trick, but I keep thinking there is a better way.
If someone would direct me toward what I should investigate to help out my wife, that would be appreciated. All Paizo material is allowed.
Thanks in advance!
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The dot is a way of adding the thread to things to be watched, even if you don't specifically have advice to offer.
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More helpfully, consider the Eldritch Scoundrel rogue archetype as an option.
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The dot is a way of adding the thread to things to be watched, even if you don't specifically have advice to offer.
Oops, my mistake, now I look like a ___. I apologize.
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We're cool, my dude.
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I know you have repeatedly stated that it must be Paizo-only, but in all truth, the Trickster (One of Kobold Press' New Paths) would be right up her alley, since it is basically to the Arcane Trickster what the Magus is to the Eldritch Knight.
Maybe you could convince your GM to have a look at it and decide for themselves
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The dot is a way of adding the thread to things to be watched, even if you don't specifically have advice to offer.Oops, my mistake, now I look like a ___. I apologize.
No worries--we can all delete the relevant posts now, as long as we catch them before an hour is up :)
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Another option is to consider a bard. They get illusion spells, tons of tricks, and the Archaeologist archetype even gives you trap-finding and evasion--and doesn't have bardic performance, so it's easy to flavor as a street roguey type. Think Indiana Jones...
It's a bit outside the box, but you could also consider the Cardinal archetype for a cleric of Sivanah, moving into the Veiled Illusionist. Clerics of Sivanah add silent image to their spell list, Cardinals get 6+Int skill points, and if you take the Trickery domain, you get Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth. With traits (like Criminal or Reckless) you can add Disable Device or Acrobatics as class skills.
A thing to keep in mind is that your character doesn't have to be defined by the name of their class. That's one of the things I love about Pathfinder--I've had characters who were "rogues" without a level in rogue, "inquisitors" who had ten different classes, "clerics" who were pretty much witches...
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Eldritch Scoundrel is the obvious go-to, being a rogue with with pretty good arcane spellcasting.
To capitalize on being a Gnome, I might suggest the archaeologist bard. Bards get pretty a pretty impressive spell list with many evasive/tricksy illusions, and the archaeologist has a very rogue-like class feature that is powerful, and less noisy than bardic performance (Fate's Favored trait makes it very potent if a little cheesy).
Regular bard also works exceptionally well as Versatile Performance is an amaznig class feature, depends how okay she would be with bardic performancing when not stabbing people in the back. Bards can fight very well as they don't actually need that much charisma to do their bard things.
EDIT: Oh boo, ninja'd.
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Sorry for getting defensive, lack of sleep and stress at work are clouding my judgement. Not an excuse, I know.
Anywho, The Eldritch Scoundrel looks interesting. I'll have to look deeper at that. I'm also going to talk with the GM about the Trickster from Kobold Press. It will be difficult, however, since I don't own the PDF currently so he will likely say no without seeing the class beforehand.
Thanks so far!
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Sorry for getting defensive, lack of sleep and stress at work are clouding my judgement. Not an excuse, I know.
Anywho, The Eldritch Scoundrel looks interesting. I'll have to look deeper at that. I'm also going to talk with the GM about the Trickster from Kobold Press. It will be difficult, however, since I don't own the PDF currently so he will likely say no without seeing the class beforehand.
Thanks so far!
I should have added that it costs 1.99 $ :-)
Also, both you and the GM can look at the reviews (including mine BTW) and the thread discussion
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Hmm, that's cheap. I'll pick it up and check it out. GM replied with "I'll need to see the class features first", so that's not an outright no!
I would argue with a modernized build AT is not significantly weaker than a standard wizard/sorc of equal level.
Try Sorc 4 + Snakestrike Brawler 1 -> AT. Use accomplished sneak attacker to pick up the second sneak attack dice. You have near full caster progression and near full sneak attack to boot. Arcane bloodline gives a familiar and a bonus to her save dcs. Psychic bloodline gives her psychic casting which is amazing for tickster characters
If she just wants to screw with people, going full psychic(class) is probably my favorite option. Mesmerist is another good option
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Seconding Mesmerist, but I don't remember how many illusions in his spell list it has.
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Heavens Oracle with 2 levels of Ninja specializing in color spray with Awesome Display could be a blast. 2d6 sneak attack with Accomplished Sneak Attacker, ki attacks, Oracle buffs and casting, and devastating Color Spray hijinks. Vanishing Trick and/or Shadow Clone.
Heavens Oracle is an awesome theme for a street rat; in the gutters gazing at the heavens.
There's a few ways to go about this.
1) Unchained Rogue with the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype attached.
2) Sorcerer 4/Rogue or Ninja 1/Arcane Trickster X, needs Accomplished Sneak Attacker to get in at that level. Maybe do 2 levels of ninja, so you get charisma based ki.
3) Use the Magus with the Puppetmaster archetype. It gets a bunch of trickster abilities, focused on enchantment and illusion specifically. It's actually fairly cool.
Depends on what rogue abilities you are looking for.. Might be able to do this concept with a Bard as well.
The dot is a way of adding the thread to things to be watched, even if you don't specifically have advice to offer.
Tip: if you delete your 'dot' post, the thread will remain dotted for you.
What about the sandman bard? You get the bard's usual spell list (which has both illusions and a lot of support), some sneak attack, higher DC against enemies who are flat-footed, and 1/2 your level to bluff, SoH and stealth. You lose the suggestion line and most of your inspire buffs, sadly, but you get stealspell (a bit like the 3.5 spellthief) and instead of suggestion you can make fascinated enemies fall asleep. Stealspell is iffy, but potentially very powerful. Remember, you can "tap" your allies for spells as well, being able to use them as sources of temporary spells known.
A lot of interesting sugggestions here; thanks guys.
I'm going to be creating level 7 chars for these suggestions, and presenting them to her. I want her to decide which option she is most interested in, then let her create the char on her own.
I'll try and post statblocks for people to critique as well!
It may be a bit too much for a first-time player, but the Vigilante is a great fit for this, particularly the Warlock Archetype. You'll get the Sorcerer's spell list up to 6th-level with the Bard's spells per day and spells known track, and you're getting 4+Int skills per level as an Int-based caster, so you'll have plenty. Vigilantes get pretty much any skills you'd need to be a street rat - you do lose Disable Device with the Archetype, but could easily get it back with a Trait. Her Mystic Bolts would let her always have something to do in combat.
If it feels a bit too "eldritch" for her tastes, a traditional Stalker Vigilante would still be a wonderful fit, albeit without much to compliment the Illusionist part.
For a Ninja/Oracle with Star Spray, I would consider something like:
Warsighted Heavens Oracle 7/ Ninja 2
8\6STR, 16DEX, 12/14CON, 12INT, 8WIS, 16/18CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack, Wayang Spellhunter: Color Spray. Drawback: Sentimental.
1O. *[Martial Flexibility (Combat Reflexes?)]* / Weapon Finesse
2N. {+1d6 Sneak Attack}
3N. *Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick* / Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Branched Spear
4O.
5O. *Awesome Display* / Accomplished Sneak Attacker {+2d6 Sneak Attack}
6O.
7O. Persistent Spell
8O.
9O. Spontaneous Metafocus: Color Spray
Get an Agile Elven branched spear as soon as possible, to add DEX to damage. Agile and casting Divine Favor/Power will make for decent damage, and Sneak Attack adds a nice bump. With an extra Ki attack at the right moment, it's actually pretty mean. Martial Flexibility lets you take extra situational combat feats, like grabbing Combat Reflexes if expecting to use reach against many opponents. Ki can be used for Vanishing Trick to quickly disappear when needed (and reappear with a sneak attack). Bewildering Koan would be awesome to have, but feats and Ki points are tight, so I left it out.