Gestalt: Big Weapon Goblin


Advice

Shadow Lodge

I'm making some pregens for a gestalt one-shot and could use some help implementing a concept: a goblin using the biggest weapon he can get his hands on.

Other constraints:

  • Level 4, 25 point buy, 6,000gp.
  • No swords (several of the other pregens have them)
  • No casting (this is one of two spell-free options)
  • Shouldn't be too complicated to play

The Titan Fighter will let gobbo use a medium-size two-handed weapon with a -1 penalty.

Alternatively, the small Orc Butchering Axe is essentially a medium-size greataxe. I can squeeze in the required 17 Strength with an 18 minus 2 racial, plus 1 for 4th level - or buy a 17 -2 racial +1 advancement +2 belt = 18. After that all it costs is Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Classes I'm looking at:

  • Fighter (if not Titan Fighter, then Two-Handed? Mutation Warrior?)
  • Barbarian (probably not Titan Mauler - I want to two-hand this thing)
  • Alchemist (Metamorph) - lotsa strength, defensive discoveries, a bit of utility
  • Slayer, for utility
  • Ranger (Wild Stalker?)

Multiclassing OK though I'd prefer a simple two-class gestalt.


I'm not sure, but the wording 'additional –2 penalty on attack rolls' suggests to me that the total penalty might be a -4, reduced to -3 by the incredible heft feature. Which makes orc butchering axe look more attractive.

Basically all the classes you might want have a poor will save, so fit Iron Will in there somehow. A two-handed fighter // metamorph alchemist sounds fun and effective and would have enough feats to squeeze in one for extra discovery.

Shadow Lodge

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of spell-free options with good will saves. There are some archetypes of paladin and antipaladin, the vigilante, and the sleuth investigator. The first three come with RP strings that I'm hesitant to attach to a pre-gen. The sleuth could work - at low levels the deeds are not a terrible trade for extracts, and the skills are nice. But it's a lot of resource juggling, and uses both Int and Cha in a build that otherwise calls to dump one or both of those stats.

Taking Iron Will on top of Power Attack and EWP (Butchering Axe) would mean taking either fighter, slayer, or non-Wild Stalker Ranger in order to get at least one bonus feat.

Given that, Two-Hand Fighter//Metamorph does seem like a pretty good combo. I'd end up with three part-alchemist gestalts out of eleven, but they're pretty different in character (one's a Grenadier, and the other is a vivisectionist poison specialist). Plus, Alchemist is a pretty thematic class for goblins.


use a gun and take the goblin feat that lets you use a medium gun with no issues then go titan fighter for a 1 lvl dip and then gunslinger for the rest you now have a goblin with a large size gun unless you could stack urban barbarian with titan mauler barb then go barb gestated with trench fighter and a 1 lvl dip into gun slinger


Quote:

Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex)

At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee...

So no giant boomstick.

That said, a Butchering Axe would be a good place to start.

Start off with that 18 in str, add +1 for level 4, along with a +2 belt, and you qualify for the 19 requirement.

On the other side of the gestalt, go Ranger 4, getting you Lead Blades once per day or so.

Alternatively, the Titan Mauler barbarian archetype's Massive Weapons ability should stack with the Titan Fighter's Giant Weapon Wielder.

The combined penalty clocks in at a massive -4(for two size categories too large)-2(Giant Weapon Wielder penalty)-4(Massive Weapons penalty)+1(Massive Weapons bonus)+1(Incredible Heft bonus)=-8.

But by then you're swinging a large Butchering Axe for a grand total of 4d6 damage per hit, which is of course amazing.

You can achieve a pretty decent to hit with the thing too.

Presupposing our 19 str(which is neccesary to not take penalties for having too puny a strength score when wielding the butchering axe) You can hit at +4BAB+4Str+1Size+1Enh-8Oversize=+2.

But we're a fighter, so we probably have weapon focus, and Big Game Hunter means we get +1 to hit against anything that's medium or bigger, so it's really +4 to hit.

But we can also Rage for +4 str, so it's really more like +6. And since we aren't complete and utter retards, we also take Reckless Abandon for our level 4 rage power, so now we hit at +8.

That's respectable enough, considering we're doing 4d6+10 damage on each whack. That's a completely respectable average of 24 damage.

Point buy would be something like

Str 19=18-2+1+2E (17pts)
Dex 14=10+4 (0pts)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 10
Wis 12(2pts)
Cha 9=11-2 (1pt)

Min/max to taste, of course.

Feats could be:

1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency
2F - Weapon Focus
3 - Power Attack
4F - Furious Focus.

That lands 6 more points of damage, which is nice.

Shadow Lodge

Lady-J: Sorry, I should have specified: I'm looking for a big melee weapon, to be wielded two-handed. There is already a gunslinger//alchemist pre-gen - though I don't think that it has a feat to spare for Goblin Gunslinger.

Ierox: That's a really neat build! It might be a bit more min-maxed than I was aiming for, with a -4 AC penalty, no Iron Will, and most of the wealth invested in the strength belt. The character would need to use a masterwork weapon instead of a +1, and would have just 1635gp left for defensive and utility items.

I'm also not confident in the RAI on a Large Butchering Axe. Given that the small axe requires Str 17 and the medium Str 19, I expect a large Butchering Axe should require Str 21, even if this is not stated (due to the assumption that PCs are small or medium).


It only says "if your size is less than medium", so since 17str clearly includes small and smaller all the way to diminutive, I think it's fairly clear that 19 should apply to medium and up. But that's just me.

And you could just drop power attack and furious focus to pick up iron will and something else. Dodge, maybe, to help a little with the admittedly not so good AC.

That way you'd have 10+4+1+2+1-4=14 AC when wearing a chain shirt, increasing to 15 when attacked by something medium or larger.

You could also just drop reckless abandon, although your to hit score won't be so good for level 4. It's already a little iffy at +8, to be honest.

Shadow Lodge

Looks like I mis-remembered the wording on the Butchering Axe - thanks!

I was curious about how the entertainingly min-maxed giant axe build compared to the more conservative Two Hand Fighter//Metamorph that avr suggested, so I crunched some numbers.

Going to assume for simplicity everyone buys the belt of strength and a breastplate. DPR vs AC 17, not counting critical hits - again, for simplicity. I'm also going to reference the benchmarks here. In brief, a “blue” rating is optimal, green is a good level for a primary offense, and defenses should be in the orange-green range.

Two-Handed Fighter // Metamorph (Small Butchering Axe):

Stats: Str 18 (17+1-2+2) Dex 14 (10+4) Con 16 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 (10-2)
Feats (5): EWP, Iron Will, Power Attack, Furious Focus, +1

Attack +10 = 4 (BAB) + 4 (Str) + 1 (MW) +1 (size)
--Mutagen +12
Damage d12+14 = d12 + 8 (x2Str) + 6 (PA)
--Mutagen d12+18
--Alter Self (Med) 3d6+16/20

DPR: 14.35 (low) 24.4 (high)

AC: 19 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +1 size)
--Mutagen 21
--Alter Self 18/20
HP 52 (max each level, without FCB)
Saves: Fort +7 Ref +6 Will +4

Special: Two discoveries

This is a pretty good build. Unbuffed attack bonus (+10) and DPR (14.35) are both green, and buffed DPR (24.4) is blue. AC is not great, but with the mutagen it hits the green level (21); HP is also pretty good (52), and at least one of the two discoveries can go towards defenses, so the durability should be fine. Saves are also OK; Will (+4) hits the orange mark, while the others (+7 and +6) approach green ratings. The last feat could go to Dodge, but I'd probably use it for Extra Discovery or something with a bit of utility, like Intimidating Prowess.

Titan Fighter // Titan Mauler (Large Butchering Axe):

Stats: Str 19 (18+1-2+2) Dex 14 (10+4) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 9 (11-2)
Feats (4): EWP, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus

Attack +4 = 4 (BAB) + 4 (Str) + 1 (MW) +1 (size) -8 (oversize) +1 (Big Game) +1 (Weapon Focus)
--Rage +8 (+2 Str +2 Reckless Abandon)
Damage 4d6+12 = + 6 (Str) + 6 (PA)
--Rage 4d6+15

DPR: 10.4 (low) 17.4 (high)

AC: 19 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +1 size)
--Rage 15 (-2 rage, -2 reckless abandon)
HP 56 (max each level, without FCB) +8 temp rage
Saves: Fort +6 (rage +8) Ref +3 Will +2 (+4 rage)

Special: one additional rage power

Despite the impressive 4d6 weapon die and putting a lot of resources into attack bonuses, DPR for this build actually drops pretty significantly, losing about 4 points unbuffed and 7 buffed. Predictably, defenses are also lower, with the raging AC of 15 falling below even the orange rating – higher HP will help, but I don't think 4 HP and 8 temporary HP is going to outweigh a 6-point gap in AC and the loss of two defensive discoveries (and we also have to worry about sudden barbarian death syndrome). Finally, the saves are worse. The Will save is OK when raging (+4), but terrible if surprised (+2). The Ref save (+3) is just bad.

Maybe an intermediate build could do better?

Titan Fighter // Metamorph (Medium Butchering Axe):

Stats: Str 19 (18+1-2+2) Dex 14 (10+4) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 (10-2)
Feats (4): EWP, Iron Will, Power Attack, Furious Focus

Attack +7 = 4 (BAB) + 4 (Str) + 1 (MW) +1 (size) -3 (oversize)
--Mutagen +9
Damage 3d6+12 = 3d6 + 6 (Str) + 6 (PA)
--Mutagen 3d6+15
--Alter Self (Med) 4d6+13/16

DPR: 12.4 (low) 19.5 (high)

AC: 19 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +1 size)
--Mutagen 21
--Alter Self 18/20
HP 48 (max each level, without FCB)
Saves: Fort +6 Ref +6 Will +4

Special: Two discoveries

Again, DPR (12.4-19.5) is lower than the Two-Handed Fighter. Defenses are similar, though HP and Fort save are a little lower due to the Str/Con tradeoff. And we're missing that last feat.

Titan Mauler // Metamorph (Medium Butchering Axe):

Stats: Str 19 (18+1-2+2) Dex 14 (10+4) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 (10-2)
Feats (2): EWP, Power Attack

Attack +4 = 4 (BAB) + 4 (Str) + 1 (MW) +1 (size) +1 (Big Game) -5 (oversize) -2 (PA)
--Buffed +10 (+2 mutagen +2 rage +2 reckless abandon)
Damage 3d6+12 = 3d6 + 6 (Str) + 6 (PA)
--Buffed 4d6+19 = 4d6 + 13 (Str) +6 (PA)

DPR: 9 (low) 20 (mutagen + rage) 23.1 (high)
No PA: 8.25 (low) 21.6 (high)

AC: 20 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +1 size +1 Big Game)
--Buffed 17 (+2 nutagen, -1 alter self, -2 rage, -2 reckless abandon)
HP 56 (max each level, without FCB) +8 temp rage
Saves: Fort +6 (+8 rage) Ref +6 Will +2 (+4 rage)

Special: Two discoveries, one other rage power

The most buff-dependent build, this fails to hit even orange DPR unbuffed (DPR 9) – though its fully buffed DPR (23.1) is solidly blue and only barely behind the THF//Metamorph. AC drops (17-20), though not as badly as the THF//Mauler, and the Ref save stays high; HP improves (56+8 temp) and we still have defensive discoveries. Fort and Ref saves are good (+6-8) and Will is OK when raging (+4). Overall this is definitely still a weaker build than the THF//Metamorph – though since it's not a huge difference the “fun factor” of carrying an orc-size butchering axe does make it tempting.

Two-Hand Fighter // Titan Mauler (Medium Butchering Axe):

Stats: Str 19 (18+1-2+2) Dex 14 (10+4) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 (10-2)
Feats (5): EWP, Iron Will, Power Attack, Furious Focus, +1

Attack +6 = 4 (BAB) + 4 (Str) + 1 (MW) +1 (size) +1 (Big Game) -5 (oversize)
--Rage +10 (+2 rage +2 reckless abandon)
Damage 3d6+14 = 3d6 + 8 (x2 Str) + 6 (PA)
--Rage 3d6+18 = 3d6 + 12 (Str) +6 (PA)

DPR: 12.25 (low) 19.95 (high)

AC: 20 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +1 size +1 Big Game)
--Rage 16 (-2 rage, -2 reckless abandon)
HP 56 (max each level, without FCB) +8 temp rage
Saves: Fort +6 (+8 rage) Ref +3 Will +2 (+4 rage)

Special: one other rage power

DPR (12.25-19.95) still can't beat the THF//Metamorph, and again we're looking at a hit to AC and saves.

So it looks like, at least for a level 4 goblin, the penalties imposed by wielding oversized weapons outweigh the extra damage from weapon dice and the opportunity cost of abilities like Mutagen or Overhand Chop. The Titan Mauler//Metamorph comes close, thanks to being able to obtain a Str up to 29 with rage, mutagen, and shapechanging - and it might be worth making a less optimal pregen for the entertainment value. I will see how it stacks up to the other pregens and make a decision.

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