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Managing a wizards spellbook in PFS


Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild

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Shadow Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Partially because wizards haven't changed much since 3.5 and partially because of PFS tracking requirements I haven't tried a wizard before.

I'm now trying an arcanist.

Does anyone have a good trick For keeping all of the spells handy and ITS tracked? I'm about to say weight limit be damned and just use an actual composition book for the spellbook.

Silver Crusade ***

I just have an MS Word document that lists my spells in my book, and reprint it when there are changes (usually once per level, though I sometimes just write the new stuff on the paper copy so I don't have to reprint right away).

When I buy new ones, I just mark it on the ITS as "5 level 1 spells added to spellbook" or something like that, and put the cost next to it. Unlike expendables that need to be tracked, you don't have to list every spell on the ITS and can combine them into a single purchase that way.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Virginia—Portsmouth aka CsonTep

I do the same. Two copies of my spellbook spells, 1 to give out to other casters at the table and one so I can remember what spells I have when I copy spells from their books. Update and reprint after game.

For the ITS its usually "BUNCH OF SPELLS IN SPELLBOOK . . . xxxxGP", same on the chronicle.

Silver Crusade ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I've tried a bunch of different methods for storing spells in spellbooks. My favorite is to scribble spells down on a sheet of paper until I have a full spellbook's worth of spells, at which point I'll print something nicely formatted out, laminate it, and stuff it in the binder.

For spells memorized, my favorite method so far is to have a separate laminated sheet with spell slots, and dry erase spells memorized onto the sheet. If it's part of a standard loadout, use permanent marker instead. (You can always remove it later with the dry erase trick.)

ITS: when I was using paper ITSes, I hated writing down spells. Hate hate hate hate hate. I've since moved onto keeping my ITS sheets in Google Docs and there, I write down the name of every spell. I used to do what a lot of posters here did, which was "learned 43 different 1st level spells! -645 gp." Writing everything down individually makes it actually useful as an auditing mechanism. It's way easier digitally than on paper though. :(

(Note: there's a special case, where you're copying spells from another PC's spellbook. How I usually work this out is to share photos (or whatever digital artifact you've got) during the game and sort it out after. When recording this stuff on an ITS, I try to remember to write down the PFS ID and character number of the character whose spellbook I'm looking at.)

Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

I use a spreadsheet instead of ITS. It was impossible to track alchemist resources sensibly in ITS for me.

So I just add a row "scribed spell X, Y gold" and continue adding up how much I've spent that session.

As for managing the spellbook itself - I use LaTeX includes so that I put any spell's description I ever use into a file which I can later include in the personalized spellbook file for any particular character that has that spell.

By giving each spell a proper section header I can just compile the whole thing and get a table of contents that lists my spells per level.

**

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't know how you feel about Herolab, BNW, but the current version has a nice feature of being able to track the free spells you get at levels and letting you buy the spells in a straightforward fashion. Since they can't be sold or destroyed, though, I'm not sure if ITS entries are needed?

Shadow Lodge *****

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I don't know how you feel about Herolab, BNW

sounds of chewing and crunching

Quote:
but the current version has a nice feature of being able to track the free spells you get at levels and letting you buy the spells in a straightforward fashion. Since they can't be sold or destroyed, though, I'm not sure if ITS entries are needed?

Nice to see i'm not the only one. I found a teeny graph paper notebook i can just turn into his spellbook , that should work. Thanks

Silver Crusade ***** RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

I maintain separate a separate ITS series for spell scribing costs (and yes I make a separate entry for each spell scribed).

I keep a separate Google sheet with my spellbook (with sources noted and links to the PRD or Archives of Nethys), and also keep a hand written list which I use to prepare spells, and a separate hand written list where I keep track of the pages in my spellbook(s) blessed book.

*

My wizard has a library back at the Grand Lodge, so there are spells that aren't in his adventuring spellbooks.

I use three separate trackers.
1) Spell ITS - similar to the normal ITS, but with spell level and other goodies. The paper version uses which book the spell goes into (and comes out of) instead of the sold/expended columns, so it's fairly readable. All the necessary information is on here, but it's not as immediately useful as the other sheets.
2) Master spell list - separated by spell level, and stuff like targeting information, the source, and whether alchemists/magi can copy it. This is what gets handed to the other casters at the table for spell exchange time.
3) Adventuring spells - has the contents of my adventuring spellbooks, with school spells bolded. Also has several sets of "standard" spell loadouts, to save time at the table. This gets printed and put in a sheet protector, where I can use a dry erase marker to mark out spells as I use them.

Scarab Sages ***

Now that spellbooks and other classes has been clarified, I'm planning to buy a Blessed Book for my Sorcerer. I was planning to just use a spreadsheet similar to what I'd been using for his mountain of scrolls and print it out to keep with the character. On the ITS id just list access costs as one lump cost and write "see attached spellbook." Or something along those lines.


I've got a stupid question for this thread....

Are you ever questioned "Where did you get this spell?" I mean, don't get me wrong, by the rules, you have to have every little detail written down, but I've never even seen someone book checked on a resource, let alone spell book checked.

So I wonder, is all this REALLY necessary?

*

shalandar wrote:

I've got a stupid question for this thread....

Are you ever questioned "Where did you get this spell?" I mean, don't get me wrong, by the rules, you have to have every little detail written down, but I've never even seen someone book checked on a resource, let alone spell book checked.

So I wonder, is all this REALLY necessary?

I haven't been asked, no. I also haven't really been audited for anything else, so that might just be that the local GMs trust me to have everything in order.

With that said, knowing which book the spell came out of is handy when you try looking it up to see what it actually does. I've also caught a couple of my own mistakes like this (thinking I'd bought a spell when I hadn't, for example, or buying the same one twice.)


shaventalz wrote:


I haven't been asked, no. I also haven't really been audited for anything else, so that might just be that the local GMs trust me to have everything in order.

With that said, knowing which book the spell came out of is handy when you try looking it up to see what it actually does. I've also caught a couple of my own mistakes like this (thinking I'd bought a spell when I hadn't, for example, or buying the same one twice.)

This is different, and I agree with this completely. Knowing what book the spell came from and all the details on the spell is one thing. It just seems this thread is more about "where did you get it, in game." and it felt odd. Maybe I just misinterpreted it.

*****

shalandar wrote:
This is different, and I agree with this completely. Knowing what book the spell came from and all the details on the spell is one thing. It just seems this thread is more about "where did you get it, in game." and it felt odd. Maybe I just misinterpreted it.

The only ones you really need much detail about are ones gained from other players. These are supposed to be noted on your chronicle and signed off by the GM as they are gained at a fairly significant discount compared to any others.

For more regular spell access I just write "scribed x level y spells, cost z" onto my ITS. I use a google sheet for my ITS as it is much easier to track resources than the one in the back of the guide.

As far as audits go, in person games it is quite rare, online play varies. I regularly audit my online players but that is because I have the time. Face to face, not so much.

Shadow Lodge *****

shalandar wrote:
"where did you get it, in game." and it felt odd. Maybe I just misinterpreted it.

Its more about "where did you buy it" , At hitting level 2 my arcanist just pimped out his spellbook to the tune of 400 gp.


On my ITS, I've listed every scroll I've purchased between scenarios, and then the cost of the ink for transcribing multiple scrolls as one item. I haven't had access to other player spellbooks yet, but I'd probably make some note as to the spellbook page numbers along with the cost of the ink if I transcribed anything.

For keeping track of spells at the table: I have all my character paperwork in a 3-ring binder. I have one master list of spells known with the spellbook pages they're written on beside them, e.g.:

1 Resistance
2 Acid Splash
3 Detect Magic

(and then later when I started adding spells that take multiple pages)

40-41 Summon Monster II
42-43 Invisibility
44-45 Locate Object

(etc.)

Then I have a section in the binder with paginated spell information, in the same order as in the master spell list, labeled with the spellbook page numbers, so I can look things up quickly. When my character gets new spells, I add them to the file and print out the new pages.

Shadow Lodge *****

You can pay library fees equal to half the scrinbe cost rather than buying scrolls

Silver Crusade **

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can pay library fees equal to half the scrinbe cost rather than buying scrolls

This is the NPC cost for Adding spells to a wizard's spellbook (scroll way down), from page 219 of the Core Rulebook. Scrolls were required years ago. faq link

Shadow Lodge *****

cost to scribe= (Spell level^2) X10
Library fees are half that.

(cantrips are half a first level spell, but you have all of those anyway)


DesolateHarmony wrote:


This is the NPC cost for Adding spells to a wizard's spellbook (scroll way down), from page 219 of the Core Rulebook. Scrolls were required years ago. faq link

It's the one above it I need to see. The Roleplaying Guild Guide is pretty clear about only first-level scrolls being always available, and it only covers NPC spellcasters in the context of hiring them to cast a spell. I'd never have thought to ask about that.

Scarab Sages ***

“FAQ” wrote:

Can my prepared spellcaster learn spells from another PC? What about gaining spells via scrolls found during an adventure?

Players are welcome to exchange spells with each other during an adventure. They must still follow all the normal rules as put forth in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook and their class descriptions (for instance, an alchemist can scribe from a wizard, but not vice-versa) and they must not bog the session down.

Similarly, scrolls found during an adventure can be used to add spells to spellbooks and similar class features (such as a witch's familiar), using the normal rules for doing so. Scrolls used in this way during an adventure do not need to be purchased, but are still consumed as normal.

With either method, the GM should sign off on the spells gained (after witnessing successful skill checks) on affected players' Chronicle sheets. All other methods of gaining new spells (such as by gaining a level or purchasing access to an NPC's spellbook) function as described in the Core Rulebook and relevant class descriptions. Between adventures, PCs can always find an NPC to teach them any spells that are legal for their character to learn.

It’s in the FAQ.

Shadow Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Its been there for a while, but it wasn't as clearly worded. It said something about the "Rare case of purchasing access to a wizard spellbook" when that practice is more along the lines of "woo whoo spare cash shut up and take my money"

Scarab Sages ***

Yeah, I think they reworded it in the great FAQ reorganization of March 2017.

Shadow Lodge **** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Azothath

I run many wizards, a few arcanists and sorcerers, a few clerics, a magus, an oracle... Mainly I use a color coded class spell sheet which is printed landscape with 0-5 level spells on front side, and 6-9th level spells and various rules and metamagic feats on the backside. It is a printed sheet that's electronically updated.
There's notation I use to make it easy to track for memorized, active, cast, school/domain spells, scrolls, wands, school powers, bonded obects, pearls/runes/slots. For PFS you only need the front side.

I use chronicles to track what I bought so when I sell back I get half for the Blessed Book conversion around 9-12th level.
My ITS is a table in an electronic document that I update and reprint so it has a sum total and list of chronicles. Remember to purchase a new spellbook every 100 spell levels (zero take up 1 page).
On the chronicle I write;
learn & scribe
1st: disguise self 18, ill calm 21, sum mon 1 20, unsn svrnt 19 4(10+5) $60
2nd: loc obj, blur - free at 4th lvl
air step 18, agrsv thndrcld 22, rope trick 21, see invis 19 4(40+20) $240
If your Spellcraft+10 beats the learn DC then you can skip the numbers via take 10. That should happen pretty quickly for core casters.

For spell lookup I have;
1) flat database of all spell text
2) pdfs of books
3) a doc of often used spells.
4) modified doc of summonings and variants

Scarab Sages ***

Fromper wrote:

I just have an MS Word document that lists my spells in my book, and reprint it when there are changes (usually once per level, though I sometimes just write the new stuff on the paper copy so I don't have to reprint right away).

When I buy new ones, I just mark it on the ITS as "5 level 1 spells added to spellbook" or something like that, and put the cost next to it. Unlike expendables that need to be tracked, you don't have to list every spell on the ITS and can combine them into a single purchase that way.

That is what I do in both cases. A word document that looks pretty much like the spellbook spoiler in this character's profile. It lists the spell's source if it is non-CRB, and differentiates which spells are in my blessed book. It also lists the costs for learning/copying/scribing a spell and the DC for learning it, under the spell level (because I got tired of re-calculating it every session).

Also: blessed book.

My ITS simply has 'spells X gold - chronicle y' though in two cases I have a written the character's name and PFS number when I 'copied' their book. In one case that is because the spell is a cure light wounds from a samsaran wizard. Totally useless for me, but how many wizards can say they have an arcane CLW in their book. Shiny! :)

Also: If you are interested in trading spells... Wizards wanted.

The Exchange ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just checking... everyone is just Taking 10 to scribe spells into their books right? Is everyone actually asking the judge at the table if they can Take 10 on the Spellcraft check?

I have encountered more than one Wizard who didn't have a rank in Spellcraft... which would make it kind of hard to scribe spells to their book...

Liberty's Edge *

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I use a spreadsheet instead of ITS. It was impossible to track alchemist resources sensibly in ITS for me.

So I just add a row "scribed spell X, Y gold" and continue adding up how much I've spent that session.

As for managing the spellbook itself - I use LaTeX includes so that I put any spell's description I ever use into a file which I can later include in the personalized spellbook file for any particular character that has that spell.

By giving each spell a proper section header I can just compile the whole thing and get a table of contents that lists my spells per level.

I use LaTeX for may things but have not thought of that for this. Do you have an example?


Take 10 wrote:

Just checking... everyone is just Taking 10 to scribe spells into their books right? Is everyone actually asking the judge at the table if they can Take 10 on the Spellcraft check?

I have encountered more than one Wizard who didn't have a rank in Spellcraft... which would make it kind of hard to scribe spells to their book...

What would you do if you encountered a Judge who wouldn't let you Take 10? And does that make any sense at all?

Wait for the next Judge who wouldn't make nonsensical rulings, would be my approach.

Obviously, if you lack Spellcraft, that's more of an issue.

Shadow Lodge *****

You re specifically allowed to take ten on these

*

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You re specifically allowed to take ten on these

I agree that you can take 10 - if you were rushed or distracted, you wouldn't be spending the hour studying the spell. With that said, do you have a source for that specific allowance?

I'm surprised there exist wizards out there without at least a point or two in Spellcraft. What, did they take Divination as an opposed school or something? I have to admit, I hadn't really paid attention to the Spellcraft checks when scribing for a while, because the DC is just so low. With taking 10, all you usually need is 2 ranks and enough Intelligence to be able to cast the spell (take10 + 2rank + 3classSkill + intMod). If you need to scribe from an opposition school, add 5 to that. Numbers like that should be trivial at anything past maybe 2nd or 3rd level with even a token investment.

*****

I once had a player ask me what happened if they failed the spellcraft check. I told them I didn't know because I always just took 10.

***

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Failure means you need to wait a week.

CRB, pg. 219 wrote:
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.

In PFS, I would say they have to wait for the next time they get downtime.

*

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BretI wrote:

Failure means you need to wait a week.

CRB, pg. 219 wrote:
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.

In PFS, I would say they have to wait for the next time they get downtime.

Except that time between scenarios is completely undefined, and generally assumes "long enough to do whatever you need."

See also: recharging completely-drained staves between adventures, recovery from diseases and ability damage, and never being able to spend enough wand charges of Crafter's Fortune to get a bonus on your day job check.

EDIT: To be clear, I think there should be some penalty for managing to fail the check. I also think that in PFS, as written, there really isn't one.

The Exchange ****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You re specifically allowed to take ten on these

can you please site this rule that you mention above? where do we get an exception for scribing spells to our books?

Take 10 NonFAQ thread.

from your comments in the thread linked above, it looks like it would be up to the judge to decide if we can Take 10 on any skill check.

"Looks like its more firmly in the dms court (ie, table variation) than ever. "

"The entire reason that a non ruling was made is because circumstances vary too much for anyone but the person sitting behind the screen to make the call."

I would assume that this use of the Take 10 rule (as all uses do) would require the OK of the judge - so you would have to ask if they allow it, right?

*

Take 10 wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You re specifically allowed to take ten on these

can you please site this rule that you mention above? where do we get an exception for scribing spells to our books?

Take 10 NonFAQ thread.

from your comments in the thread linked above, it looks like it would be up to the judge to decide if we can Take 10 on any skill check.

"Looks like its more firmly in the dms court (ie, table variation) than ever. "

"The entire reason that a non ruling was made is because circumstances vary too much for anyone but the person sitting behind the screen to make the call."

I would assume that this use of the Take 10 rule (as all uses do) would require the OK of the judge - so you would have to ask if they allow it, right?

I'm not even going to go into that NonFAQ for a fair number of reasons.

With that said:
*Does Spellcraft to use your class feature "lead to tension or drama"?
*Does asking for rolls avoid "having the game bog down"?
*Is it nonsensical to have the learn-through-study type get exactly the same result after an hours worth of work?
*Will the PC ever be "in immediate danger or distracted", but still be willing and able to spend an hour to study and one hour per spell level to copy?

I think a GM would be very hard-pressed to answer any of those questions "yes."

The Exchange ****

shaventalz wrote:


...snipping to save space...
I'm surprised there exist wizards out there without at least a point or two in Spellcraft. What, did they take Divination as an opposed school or something? I have to admit, I hadn't really paid attention to the Spellcraft checks when scribing for a while, because the DC is just so low. With taking 10, all you usually need is 2 ranks and enough Intelligence to be able to cast the spell (take10 + 2rank + 3classSkill + intMod). If you need to scribe from an opposition school, add 5 to that. Numbers like that should be trivial at anything past maybe 2nd or 3rd level with even a token investment.

the DC for adding a spell to a Spellbook is...

Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level).

so, if the Wizard has a 15 INT and one rank in spell craft, he has a 2+1+3 or a +6 in Spellcraft.

If the judge allowed him to Take 10, he could only copy 1st level spells, and fail the check needed to copy 2nd level spells (DC17).

A 16 or 17 INT only pushes this up to 2nd level spells... so if a Player does not know this rule (and many never even check it, it doesn't come up in their games and they haven't read (or understood) that part of the CRB), they may not know the importance of Spellcraft to a wizard (or other book using class).

Kind of like Druids with no ranks in Handle Animal

The Exchange ****

shaventalz wrote:
Take 10 wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You re specifically allowed to take ten on these

can you please site this rule that you mention above? where do we get an exception for scribing spells to our books?

Take 10 NonFAQ thread.

from your comments in the thread linked above, it looks like it would be up to the judge to decide if we can Take 10 on any skill check.

"Looks like its more firmly in the dms court (ie, table variation) than ever. "

"The entire reason that a non ruling was made is because circumstances vary too much for anyone but the person sitting behind the screen to make the call."

I would assume that this use of the Take 10 rule (as all uses do) would require the OK of the judge - so you would have to ask if they allow it, right?

I'm not even going to go into that NonFAQ for a fair number of reasons.

With that said:
*Does Spellcraft to use your class feature "lead to tension or drama"?
*Does asking for rolls avoid "having the game bog down"?
*Is it nonsensical to have the learn-through-study type get exactly the same result after an hours worth of work?
*Will the PC ever be "in immediate danger or distracted", but still be willing and able to spend an hour to study and one hour per spell level to copy?

I think a GM would be very hard-pressed to answer any of those questions "yes."

but we as the players still have to ask. As the FAQ implies (and BNW states Here in the tread linked to) "Yes, its in the DMS discretion for when you CAN take 10." and earlier "The entire reason that a non ruling was made is because circumstances vary too much for anyone but the person sitting behind the screen to make the call."

so... Is everyone actually asking the judge at the table if they can Take 10 on the Spellcraft check?

The Exchange ****

Pirate Rob wrote:

I once had a player ask me what happened if they failed the spellcraft check. I told them I didn't know because I always just took 10.

after a week of waiting, the PC spends GP to gain library access again (1/2 the scribing cost) and tries to make the check again.

If this is happening before or during an adventure, the PC is likely to have to wait until the next chronicle - and if the access was thru a scroll captured during the current adventure, then they would loose that access and need to pay Library costs...

*

Take 10 wrote:
shaventalz wrote:


...snipping to save space...
I'm surprised there exist wizards out there without at least a point or two in Spellcraft. What, did they take Divination as an opposed school or something? I have to admit, I hadn't really paid attention to the Spellcraft checks when scribing for a while, because the DC is just so low. With taking 10, all you usually need is 2 ranks and enough Intelligence to be able to cast the spell (take10 + 2rank + 3classSkill + intMod). If you need to scribe from an opposition school, add 5 to that. Numbers like that should be trivial at anything past maybe 2nd or 3rd level with even a token investment.

the DC for adding a spell to a Spellbook is...

Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level).

so, if the Wizard has a 15 INT and one rank in spell craft, he has a 2+1+3 or a +6 in Spellcraft.

If the judge allowed him to Take 10, he could only copy 1st level spells, and fail the check needed to copy 2nd level spells (DC17).

A 16 or 17 INT only pushes this up to 2nd level spells... so if a Player does not know this rule (and many never even check it, it doesn't come up in their games and they haven't read (or understood) that part of the CRB), they may not know the importance of Spellcraft to a wizard (or other book using class).

Kind of like Druids with no ranks in Handle Animal

Yeah, sorry. I was mixing Int bonus with Int score. I did say 2 ranks originally, but that doesn't save the math.

A masterwork tool (like the cheat sheath) makes up for a fair amout, though; that and two ranks will handle the min-Int Wizard's needs all the way through 4rd-level spells (not opposition schools, assuming take10.) However, that does assume that they bought something to help with Spellcraft (which the hypothetical wizard probably didn't.)

Sovereign Court ***

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Quote:
but we as the players still have to ask.

You don't actually have to ask.

You can inform the GM of your assumption that taking 10 is allowed. If they disagree, they can tell you to roll instead. Not that anyone will in this case.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Quote:
but we as the players still have to ask.

You don't actually have to ask.

You can inform the GM of your assumption that taking 10 is allowed. If they disagree, they can tell you to roll instead. Not that anyone will in this case.

If I was trying to do it during the actual adventure, I'd ask or at least mention I was taking 10.

If I was copying from another caster's book, it would be mentioned.

If I was buying spells from NPCs during down time, it would be listed among the gold spent for the GM to sign off on, but I wouldn't explicitly say anything about Take 10.

The Exchange ****

thejeff wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Quote:
but we as the players still have to ask.

You don't actually have to ask.

You can inform the GM of your assumption that taking 10 is allowed. If they disagree, they can tell you to roll instead. Not that anyone will in this case.

If I was trying to do it during the actual adventure, I'd ask or at least mention I was taking 10.

If I was copying from another caster's book, it would be mentioned.

If I was buying spells from NPCs during down time, it would be listed among the gold spent for the GM to sign off on, but I wouldn't explicitly say anything about Take 10.

thanks!

***

Take 10 wrote:


the DC for adding a spell to a Spellbook is...

Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level).

so, if the Wizard has a 15 INT and one rank in spell craft, he has a 2+1+3 or a +6 in Spellcraft.

If the judge allowed him to Take 10, he could only copy 1st level spells, and fail the check needed to copy 2nd level spells (DC17).

A 16 or 17 INT only pushes this up to 2nd level spells... so if a Player does not know this rule (and many never even check it, it doesn't come up in their games and they haven't read (or understood) that part of the CRB), they may not know the importance of Spellcraft to a wizard (or other book using class).

Kind of like Druids with no ranks in Handle Animal

I do list the DC to learn the spell in my spellbook. Mostly because I might be sharing with a wizard 4 levels below me. Early on I was adventuring with a wizard much higher than me and I failed to learn a couple.

Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

This is a case where not allowing Take 10 would just be dumb. Because to be able to copy spells you have to have lots of quiet time on your hands to begin with. You shouldn't be trying to write spells at a moment when there's "drama" or "tension".

The Exchange ****

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
This is a case where not allowing Take 10 would just be dumb. Because to be able to copy spells you have to have lots of quiet time on your hands to begin with. You shouldn't be trying to write spells at a moment when there's "drama" or "tension".

I try really hard never to consider the actions of the person running a table for me to be "dumb". Perhaps they know something I don't (they are running the game after all), or perhaps I am just looking at it thru "personal goggles" and just seeing whatever the issue is from only my perspective. Sometimes I slip up and do consider what the judge did to be ... less than "good gaming", but when that happens, I like to think I keep it to myself (at least until after the game when I might discuss it with the judge to gain a better understanding).

In any event, the ability to use the Take 10 rule is in the control of the judge running the table. That's one thing the FAQ makes clear. Whenever we (as players) wish to "Take 10" we have to ok it with the person running the table we are at. "Can I Take 10 on that?" or even "When I Take 10 I get...". That's all it takes. That way the judge knows what we're doing and can rule on wither the rule applies or not. Kind of like when we do a skill check using a Masterwork Tool - we need to mention this when we are using the rule, as the judge controls that aspect of the game. ...

an aside on Masterwork Tool use:
...how do we let a judge know that we are using one? Do we do it every time?

I know I don't, and I try to. But in the heat of the game, when the judge has "the flow" of the story going, sometimes it get's lost in the play. A question of "Stealth?" get's a reply of "20" instead of "Take 10 plus 8, plus 2 for my Masterwork Tool of felt slippers gives me a 20" because it is just more "in the flow" - keeping the story going.

...at least, IMHO...

Shadow Lodge *****

Take 10 wrote:


can you please site this rule that you mention above? where do we get an exception for scribing spells to our books?

Drat. Looks like i was thinking of handle animal to teach tricks.

Quote:

from your comments in the thread linked above, it looks like it

would be up to the judge to decide if we can Take 10 on any skill check.
Quote:
I would assume that this use of the Take 10 rule (as all uses do) would require the OK of the judge - so you would have to ask if they allow it, right?

Theoretically anything is up to the judge, but that does not mean you ask the judge if it's okay to do anything. You don't ask about each square of movement, you don't ask about attack rolls.

Not being able to take 10 on a check to copy spells is so far outside of my reading of the rules and the opinions of any DM that I've ever run into that I wouldn't even ask about it.

Am I in immediate danger? No

Am I distracted? Maybe if i'm copying spells on a trip to mawangi that the flavor text describes as torturous.

Am I rushed? No. I have the infinite vastness of downtime.

Is copying spells a dramatic moment that needs tension? No.

Is it the point of adventuring or a bit of lifestyle maintenance that you want to skip over? The latter.

If a DM disagrees for some reason (probably a local ruling meme that got picked up) they can tell me, and I'll roll for the scrolls and spellbook I find and not donate 400 gp for library fees until I'm with a different DM.

Quote:

"Looks like its more firmly in the dms court (ie, table variation) than ever. "

"The entire reason that a non ruling was made is because circumstances vary too much for anyone but the person sitting behind the screen to make the call."

Have you ever seen a DM actually say this or are you just trying to pick a fight over take 10?

The Exchange ****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Take 10 wrote:


can you please site this rule that you mention above? where do we get an exception for scribing spells to our books?

Drat. Looks like i was thinking of handle animal to teach tricks.

Quote:

from your comments in the thread linked above, it looks like it

would be up to the judge to decide if we can Take 10 on any skill check.
Quote:
I would assume that this use of the Take 10 rule (as all uses do) would require the OK of the judge - so you would have to ask if they allow it, right?

Theoretically anything is up to the judge, but that does not mean you ask the judge if it's okay to do anything. You don't ask about each square of movement, you don't ask about attack rolls.

Not being able to take 10 on a check to copy spells is so far outside of my reading of the rules and the opinions of any DM that I've ever run into that I wouldn't even ask about it.

Am I in immediate danger? No

Am I distracted? Maybe if i'm copying spells on a trip to mawangi that the flavor text describes as torturous.

Am I rushed? No. I have the infinite vastness of downtime.

Is copying spells a dramatic moment that needs tension? No.

Is it the point of adventuring or a bit of lifestyle maintenance that you want to skip over? The latter.

If a DM disagrees for some reason (probably a local ruling meme that got picked up) they can tell me, and I'll roll for the scrolls and spellbook I find and not donate 400 gp for library fees until I'm with a different DM.

Quote:

"Looks like its more firmly in the dms court (ie, table variation) than ever. "

"The entire reason that a non ruling was made is because circumstances vary too much for anyone but the person sitting behind the screen to make the call."

Have you ever seen a DM actually say this or are you just trying to pick a fight over take 10?

the above lines are quotes of yours - I was just agreeing with what you said in them. So I am confused at this point... I was just agreeing with you...

Shadow Lodge *****

Do you really not see any difference at all between "you are in immediate danger when leaping over a 100 foot chasm filled with boiling lava" and "take 10 never works" ? Do you ask the DM about EVERY action or do you just try to do it and live with it if they object?

Shadow Lodge *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

As for masterwork tools, as a player I don't use masterwork tools that aren't either printed or absurdly obvious (masterwork musical violin for perform strings). Also, cheat sheath. SNAG.

As a DM for PFS i am perfectly willing to accept pay 50 gp for your +2 to a skill, because some players only have the core rules and thats what the core can legitimately be read as saying.

The Exchange ****

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Do you really not see any difference at all between "you are in immediate danger when leaping over a 100 foot chasm filled with boiling lava" and "take 10 never works" ? Do you ask the DM about EVERY action or do you just try to do it and live with it if they object?

I ask every time I Take 10 ... or at least I TRY to ask. I am sure that sometimes I forget. But for the majority of the time I do ask. And have sense season 0. Whenever I Take 10. Esp. sense the FAQ was posted.

And for scribing to spellbooks/formula books, I have run Wizards (and Alchemists) sense my PC -1 in season zero. I currently have over a dozen active PCs that have Books...(not counting Witches - who have something similar, but different).

edit: I will often use the Take 10 rule when crafting Alchemical items. I have been trying to mention this each time I play an Alchemist and Craft between games - I mention it going into the next game. Log it in the ITS, listing what I craft and when, and mention it to the judge at the games start. "Taking 10 to craft items before the game, do you need to see the list of what I made?"

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