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Non-tetori grappling monk


Advice


I want to play a grappling monk in the next campaign of my DM, but don't want to use the Tetori archetype for some personnal reasons.

I looked at the alternatives, and found that the Master of Many Styles has actually a lot of potential to be a good grappler, and I would like some help to refine a "Master of Grappling" build.

To make my MoMS a good grappler, I plan to take those feats:

1- Improved Grapple + Snake Style
2- Grabbing Style
3- Dragon Style
5- Kraken Style
6- Wildcard Feat
7-
9- Greater Grapple
10- Wilcard Feat
11- Hamatula Strike
13- Rapid Grappler
14- Wilcard Feat
15-
17-
18- Wildcard Feat
19-

To compare with a tetori using Grabbing Style himself, at level 15:
- both can do 3 grapple checks per turn and can grapple 2 targets at a time
- both retain DEX to AC when pinning a target
- both get a free grapple check when punching a target, but the MoMS do not need to spend ki to reach this result
- both do damage on each successful grapple check, but the tetori deals a bit more by doing his unarmed strike damage via Constrict, while the MoMS "only" do WIS+4 via Kraken Wrack
- the MoMS however also get +4 CMB due to Fuse Style

I think it makes than both pretty close in terms of efficiency

Now, what I need to do is to come with against ennemies that I will not be able to grapple due to things spells or abilities I cannot counter like a Tetori Monk.

To reach this goal, I can use:
- Two additional styles to replace Grabbing and Kraken
- The two feats slot left after this
- A bunch of additional archetypes the Tetori couldn't combine with (Drunken Master, Hamatulasu Master, Ki Mystic, Monk of the Iron Mountain, Terra-Cotta Monk, Wildcat)
- Monk vows
- up to 10 ki powers from Qinggong

One important points to consider is that most of the targets that I will not be able to grapple will probably be spellcasters, so I think I should avoid counter-punching strategies

What would you suggest to use?


The tetori gets full BAB when grappling, not entirely coincidentally that's +4 CMB at level 15.

Anyway, you mostly want to optimise this idea rather than compare to a tetori I expect. It's not hugely likely that there'll be a tetori monk in the same party.

Something that was pointed out to me once is that Ascetic Style works well for monks, MoMS monks in particular. Throwing a bunch of shuriken, one with Stunning Fist could be useful against spellcasters. It might be worth picking up Dazing Fist so that a second one of those shuriken might be loaded for bear mage. For the other style you might consider Marid Style (requires Elemental Fist) as an additional 5' reach is handy.

Step Up and Strike as a qinggong ki power might be worth getting as an anti-caster option too. Ki Leech would just be generally useful for a monk. Barkskin is efficient if there's no one in the party who would otherwise cast it on you, monks generally use their neck slot for an amulet of mighty fists rather than an amulet of natural armor.


unchained monk


I'd like to point out that the Constrict from Tetori doubles your grappling damage per round and with Inescapable Grasp(Su) you can negate Freedom of Movement and grapple Incorporeal creatures.

That being said, I agree with avr on the Stunning Fist... casters have terrible Fort saves, plus, you could tac on some poisons and magical effects. I think you would have to use Daggers though since Shuriken are considered ammunition and are destroyed after use. Anchoring would work nicely on a flighty mage.

Cloud Step might help you catch them if they are low enough to the ground. Chokehold will also help a lot since they can no longer speak (use Verbal components) while grappled.


avr wrote:
The tetori gets full BAB when grappling, not entirely coincidentally that's +4 CMB at level 15.

All monks get full BAB when grappling.

See: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/#TOC-Maneuver-Training-Ex -
The tetori just get it 2 level earlier, and under a different name


You may want to take a glance at snapping turtle style.


Tyrant Lizard King wrote:
I'd like to point out that the Constrict from Tetori doubles your grappling damage per round and with Inescapable Grasp(Su) you can negate Freedom of Movement and grapple Incorporeal creatures.

That's what I was talking about when I wrote "the tetori deals a bit more by doing his unarmed strike damage via Constrict" and "abilities I cannot counter like a Tetori Monk"


MageHunter wrote:
You may want to take a glance at snapping turtle style.

Did, but I'm not fond of it... on paper it looks nice, but when you think about it twice, it only works on melee attackers, which are the kind of foes you have no difficulty against as a grappler in the first place.

Plus, after seeing it once, any intelligent foe will focus on your teamates instead, so you can't use that counter on them.


I was just sharing my Grappler ideas on another thread.


Another idea I had would be to incorporate some of those ideas with Unchained Monk, a level in White Haired Witch, and Feral Combat Training. The idea being you would Flurry with your Hair which will score you mulitple free grapple attacks with you can tie up opponets with.

A Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists should help against some of your opponents one normally couldn't Grapple.


Well, those are fun ideas, but I don't think they will come any close to the power of a Tetori or a Master of Many Style/Wildcat monk

The MoMS/Wildat, as I explained in your other thread, net a 28 base CMB at level 20 prior any attribute modifier, feat or item bonus.
That's probably the highest CMB base you can find in all classes, and the MoMS Wilcat will also combine several grappling styles, allowing him to do things that no other class or archetype can, not even a Tetori.

Naturaly, a Tetori will stay the "king" of grappling because he's more reliable due to his ability to counter anti-grapple abilities and spells. Yet, as long you don't land on a caster having used Freedom of Movement before you reach him or an uncorporeal creature, the MoMS Wildcat could be even more deadly than the Tetori if you fully optimize him for grapple.

Yet, this is not my goal here.
What I seek to obtain is not something with two different ways to attacks: grapples, and an alternative ways to deal decent damage against thing that cannot be grappled.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Another idea I had would be to incorporate some of those ideas with Unchained Monk, a level in White Haired Witch, and Feral Combat Training. The idea being you would Flurry with your Hair which will score you mulitple free grapple attacks with you can tie up opponets with.

A Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists should help against some of your opponents one normally couldn't Grapple.

This is a an unclear part of the rules as you don't technically grapple with your UAS (enhancement to it does not count). Ghost Spike is a much more reliable way to grapple ghosts.

* Edit rereading I think you just mean ghost touch so you can punch them. If so that works great.


Grandlounge wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Another idea I had would be to incorporate some of those ideas with Unchained Monk, a level in White Haired Witch, and Feral Combat Training. The idea being you would Flurry with your Hair which will score you mulitple free grapple attacks with you can tie up opponets with.

A Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists should help against some of your opponents one normally couldn't Grapple.

This is a an unclear part of the rules as you don't technically grapple with your UAS (enhancement to it does not count). Ghost Spike is a much more reliable way to grapple ghosts.

* Edit rereading I think you just mean ghost touch so you can punch them. If so that works great.

Actually, I was thinking Ghost Touch and attack with your Witch's White Hair. Normally, you don't technically Grapple with any weapon, natural or otherwise, and it is for that reason that the Amulet of Mighty Fists does not normally enhance your Grapple Check. But when you hit someone with your White Hair or with a Tentacle such as and Alchemal Tentacle, you get a free Grapple Attack via the Grab Ability. White Hair's Free Grapple is not technically Grab, but it is something similar. In either case, you ARE using a specific Natural Attack to Grapple with, and you should enjoy the Enhancement Bonus on your Grapple Check, or in the case I was thinking, Ghost Touch.

But yes, even if your GM does rule against, then the AoMF still enhances regular Unarmed and Natural attacks.


Moonheart wrote:
Well, those are fun ideas, but I don't think they will come any close to the power of a Tetori or a Master of Many Style/Wildcat monk

Nah-HUH!

Shadow Lodge

By RAW, Ghost Touch does not allow you grapple incorporeal. As alway, YMMV, Table Variation, Talk To Your GM, etc


Sammy T wrote:
By RAW, Ghost Touch does not allow you grapple incorporeal. As alway, YMMV, Table Variation, Talk To Your GM, etc

Are you saying Ghost Touch can't be applied to a Grapple, or are you saying that Ghost Touch doesn't allow you to target incorporeals?


According to the rules ghost touch does what it says it does and nothing more. It let's you do full damage.

Like I said there is a armor enhancement that does allow you to grapple incorporeals. That it the solution that is ttuest to what is written.


Anyway, is there really a need to grapple ghosts?
Pen and paper RPGs are games of teamplay and challenge, and the way those games enforce the teamplay is by using creatures that are expressly meant to be a pain in the ass for some character roles.

You need something else than a melee character because creatures than prevent you to get close, or are very resiliant to physical damage, exist and that's what bring the need for diverse kind of adventurers in the party.

If you start to make a melee that have no or very few counters, you're going to annoy both the DM and the other players that made characters meant to deal with those specific threats, because you just devaluate their characters

IMHO, a good character is not a character which can fight everything, but something that fulfill his own role well, and do not try to steal other's moment of glory.
If you kill every foe by yourself, your fellow players are just going to feel bored in fights.

TL;DR: Let the casters of your party deal with ghosts, so they'll feel important in the party too.


Moonheart wrote:
Anyway, is there really a need to grapple ghosts?

Sometimes it's nice.

Moonheart wrote:
You need something else than a melee character because creatures than prevent you to get close, or are very resiliant to physical damage, exist and that's what bring the need for diverse kind of adventurers in the party.

A diverse party is a powerful party.

Moonheart wrote:
IMHO, a good character is not a character which can fight everything, but something that fulfill his own role well, and do not try to steal other's moment of glory.

In my experience it has been in diversity of abilities that my character had been of the greatest service to the party. My fighter who saved the ship a bunch of times because he just happened to have a Lyre of Building, who was able to destroy all the heavily-armored orcs because he thought to Bull Rush them off the docks and into the water. When we stormed the enemy ship, he captured one of the cannons and turned it on the enemy. When we went to rescue another ship, he was the one who secured ropes to the rail before he jumped across, tied 2 of them to the other railing and kept the 3rd around his waist so everybody who was rescued escaped the sinking ship by climbing over my rope bridge and when the ship went down, I didn't because there was a rope around my waist, and I was hauled up. "What's this? We caught a fish? And it's already pickled!" (He had a drinking problem.).

My Grappler in PFS saved the party from an encounter with an Ooze and a Swarm because she just happened to have packed a lot of Lamp Oil and some Bludgeoning Weapons to pass out to her fellows. Later, she was the one who chased down the werewolf because she had a potion of Expeditios Retreat. Half the party got cut off from the other half by a Create Pit Spell. She packed pitons and rope and saved the day again.. We had to solve a magic puzzle by weighing something. She had a Traveller's Anytool which she turned into a scale. We were fighting Dark Creepers. She had Keen Scent (a half orc), Blind Fighting, and an Eversmoking Bottle.

Most of this is probably not what you meant by overdiversification--utility--but some of it is. Meanwhile, even if you are the melee character in the party, it is nice to at least pack a bow so you can be of some help when the natives are shooting at your ship from shore. And it sure is nice to surprise the party by being the Barbarian who does NOT fail his will save, get Dominated by the Vampire/Succubus/Witch and start hacking the party to pieces.

Moonheart wrote:
If you kill every foe by yourself, your fellow players are just going to feel bored in fights.

Maybe, but that is no reason for you to bore yourself by packing nothing but Throwing Daggers for when your party runs into a bunch of Skeletons. Or having nothing better to offer than to Grapple and Tie Up only 1 Goblin/round as their army is bearing down on you all. Having the right tool for the job and having the right talents to fix the problem as often as possible so that you can be a help to the party in almost every situation can make you appreciated at least as much as it can make you resented.

Meanwhile in case of a PFS game, you never know what your fellow party members will bring from one session to the next. It is more important to dress for every occasion.


Scott Wilhelm, nicely put. My favourite moments are when players use items or odd quarks of there characters to positive mechanical effect. It can be an odd skill they put points into, having a bunch of traps, carrying ear trumpets, having a perfect potion or basicly any other out of the box thinking.

I have also been in the pfs situation where you're just giving stuff out to players for a fight and it saves the party or you fire a ranged piton and save people from being trampled. Having the exact right spell is similarly satisfying. I remember having a pully when there was a particularly heavy bit of treasure down a deep well.

If each player brings a few things to a table your more likely to be able to team up or back someone up if rolls don't go there way. I like numbers but these moments of creative problem solving are what make the game for me.


Moonheart wrote:

Well, those are fun ideas, but I don't think they will come any close to the power of a Tetori or a Master of Many Style/Wildcat monk

The MoMS/Wildat, as I explained in your other thread, net a 28 base CMB at level 20 prior any attribute modifier, feat or item bonus.
That's probably the highest CMB base you can find in all classes, and the MoMS Wilcat will also combine several grappling styles, allowing him to do things that no other class or archetype can, not even a Tetori.

Naturaly, a Tetori will stay the "king" of grappling because he's more reliable due to his ability to counter anti-grapple abilities and spells. Yet, as long you don't land on a caster having used Freedom of Movement before you reach him or an uncorporeal creature, the MoMS Wildcat could be even more deadly than the Tetori if you fully optimize him for grapple.

Yet, this is not my goal here.
What I seek to obtain is not something with two different ways to attacks: grapples, and an alternative ways to deal decent damage against thing that cannot be grappled.

Nah. I have a 5 class dip that is +40 on grapple at level 11. There are a lot of grapple boni out there. The trick is doublechecking all the stacking


Grandlounge wrote:

According to the rules ghost touch does what it says it does and nothing more. It let's you do full damage.

Like I said there is a armor enhancement that does allow you to grapple incorporeals. That it the solution that is ttuest to what is written.

Allow me to direct your attention to a ghost touch net. And I highly recommend it. Most incorporeal undead have very low strengths.....


Perfect Tommy wrote:
Grandlounge wrote:

According to the rules ghost touch does what it says it does and nothing more. It let's you do full damage.

Like I said there is a armor enhancement that does allow you to grapple incorporeals. That it the solution that is ttuest to what is written.

Allow me to direct your attention to a ghost touch net. And I highly recommend it. Most incorporeal undead have very low strengths.....

Ghost touch is for melee weapons and ammunition not ranged weapons, a ghost touch net can not be made. There is an exception, it is a special published item, force net, which you may be referencing. It is a fine weapon but it cost 10000 to entangle one incorporeal creature it is ok but for that 1700 less you can just carry a +1 ghost reach weapon and kill things.


Moonheart wrote:

I want to play a grappling monk in the next campaign of my DM, but don't want to use the Tetori archetype for some personnal reasons.

I looked at the alternatives, and found that the Master of Many Styles has actually a lot of potential to be a good grappler, and I would like some help to refine a "Master of Grappling" build.

To make my MoMS a good grappler, I plan to take those feats:

1- Improved Grapple + Snake Style
2- Grabbing Style
3- Dragon Style
5- Kraken Style
6- Wildcard Feat
7-
9- Greater Grapple
10- Wilcard Feat
11- Hamatula Strike
13- Rapid Grappler
14- Wilcard Feat
15-
17-
18- Wildcard Feat
19-

To compare with a tetori using Grabbing Style himself, at level 15:
- both can do 3 grapple checks per turn and can grapple 2 targets at a time
- both retain DEX to AC when pinning a target
- both get a free grapple check when punching a target, but the MoMS do not need to spend ki to reach this result
- both do damage on each successful grapple check, but the tetori deals a bit more by doing his unarmed strike damage via Constrict, while the MoMS "only" do WIS+4 via Kraken Wrack
- the MoMS however also get +4 CMB due to Fuse Style

I think it makes than both pretty close in terms of efficiency

Now, what I need to do is to come with against ennemies that I will not be able to grapple due to things spells or abilities I cannot counter like a Tetori Monk.

To reach this goal, I can use:
- Two additional styles to replace Grabbing and Kraken
- The two feats slot left after this
- A bunch of additional archetypes the Tetori couldn't combine with (Drunken Master, Hamatulasu Master, Ki Mystic, Monk of the Iron Mountain, Terra-Cotta Monk, Wildcat)
- Monk vows
- up to 10 ki powers from Qinggong

One important points to consider is that most of the targets that I will not be able to grapple will probably be spellcasters, so I think I should avoid counter-punching strategies
What would you suggest to use?

There's no hurry to take Snake Style, since your purpose seems to be to make your Unarmed Strikes Piercing Weapons and activate Hamatula Strike to Grapple with.

I think you have more Style Feats than are legally use all at once, even for a MOMS Monk.

You should take another look at my Grappler ideas link. Your character might really benefit a lot from it. You should totally consider 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. It will allow you to to Tie Up your opponent in only 2 Grapple Checks instead of the usual 3, and you will no longer take the -10 Penalty when you try. If you can stomach a Pathfinder Character who never kills, you should totally do this. If you did something like make your first level Cavalier, you would start with 10 hit points instead of 8, which is nice.

Using Hamatula Strike is an idea I've been long wanting to try. You wear Armor Spikes so every hit that also scores a Grapple also does the Armor Spike Damage. I was thinking this would go great with a Natural Attacking Character: say be a Tengu with Claws, dip a level in White Haired Witch, and acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, and you will be a vertible whirlwind of death with 10 attacks/round, +4 if you use your Unarmed Strikes with Snake Style. You will need to take Feral Combat Training to use Snake Style with your Claws. For this character, I was thinking of taking mostly levels in Warpriest though to activate all those natural Attacks with Sacred Weapon Damage, maybe dipping 1-3 levels in Ranger and acquire wands of Lead Blades and Strong Jaw, and hey, while we're add if, give her a Bow and a Wand of Gravity Bow, taking Precise Shot as the Bonus Feat and Endurance so you can sleep in Medium Armor.

The reason why I was suggesting 4 levels in Alchemist is that Alchemists, in those 4 levels, have the fastest progression of GMB than any other class if they take a Tentacle and a Crab Tumor Familiar. They lose +1 BAB, but they Crab and Tentacle between them give you +6. Plus, with only 1 more level in a Familiar-having Class, you can get a special Familiar Archetype Ability. I really like the idea of a Protector Tumor Familiar who protects you with Bodygaurd and Shield Other with the Shield Other offset by the Tumor's Fast Healing 5. And you can play a trick with True Strike that is absolutely devastating.

I suggest dipping 3 levels in Ranger, 2 levels in Cavalier, 5 levels in Alchemist or 4 levels in Alchemist and 1 in White Haired Witch. Instead of Kraken Style and Grabbing Style, I recommend Snake Fang (Snake Sidewind if a Prerequisite. You already are taking Hamatula Strike. If you take a level in White Haired Witch, and Feral Combat Training for your Hair, you can make your Attacks of Opportunity with your Hair, scoring Free Grapples off of them. You can Great Cleave with your Hair, and Grapple every opponent adjacent to you, eliminating the most obvious shortcoming of a Grappler: now you can Grapple Multiple Opponents, and yes, you will still be able to make Attacks of Opportunity: when you have someone grappled in your Hair, they are Grappled: you aren't!


Those ideas are nice, but just not what I'm seeking. I want to try to stay out of the "dipping" thing when I'm playing a campaign


Also, after looking closer to it, I find your dip to be potentialy a terrible idea.

There is a lot to lose when sacrifying monk levels, which counts for:
- CMB (through Maneuver training)
- AC
- Unarmed Damage
- Quinggong powers
- Cumulation of styles

Your "3 levels in Ranger, 2 levels in Cavalier, 5 levels in Alchemist or 4 levels in Alchemist and 1 in White Haired Witch" halves your monk levels, which will nets you a lost of 2 styles in your mix (out of 5), -12 to CMB, half your unarmed damage, some AC, some nasty high level ki powers and the ability to throw the Dirty Trick-Unarmed Attack-Grapple with a single action.

Plus, I have to challenge you to find serious DM that will accept your character at his table being a cavalierlchimistangeritchmonk


So my idea of a non-Tetori Grappler is that your Grappling will be completely shut down when you have the misfortune of running into someone with Freedom of Movement. So, in this case, Grappling needs to be more a build feature and less a foundation.

Moonheart wrote:
Also, after looking closer to it, I find your dip to be potentialy a terrible idea.

No doubt: extensive multiclassing creates severe complexity, and never forget that characters with aggressive strengths tend to have aggressive weaknesses. I'm still learning.

Another thing I'm thinking is that Grappling doesn't really become devastating until your BAB gets to +6, so it might make sense to wait to develop as a Grappler until then.

1Ranger1: Freebooter's Bane, Point Blank Shot, BAB+1
2R2: Precise Shot, BAB+2
3R2Fighter1: Unarmed Archetype: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Feat, BAB+3
4R2F1Cavalier1: Constable, Order of the Penitent, Challenge, Tactician, Coordinated Maneuvers. BAB+4
5R2F1C2: Expert Captor, Feat, BAB+7
6R2F2C2: Greater Grapple BAB+6

So this character has 2 tricks: she can get a Wand of Gravity bow, and She has Precise Shot. She is a good Archer with extra bonuses and her arrows can do a base 2d6.

And between Greater Grapple and Expert Captor, if she begins the round adjacent to you, she can neutralize you in 1 round: she can Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action, then Tie you Up as a Move Action. No bother with Pinning; no bother with Damage. She just grabs you and hogties you: done and dusted.

Moonheart wrote:

There is a lot to lose when sacrifying monk levels, which counts for:

- CMB (through Maneuver training)

Remember that Maneuver Training is an offset for the fact that Monk is not a full BAB class. Fighter, Ranger, and Cavalier are.

Moonheart wrote:
There is a lot to lose when sacrifying monk levels, which counts for... AC

My character wears Armor and can use a Shield. She can spend most of her time just shooting people and doesn't need to worry about her AC. She can get a Throwing, Heavy Shield and a longsword for melee, and when she wants to Grapple, drop both as a Free Action. She can take a 3rd level in Ranger, get Endurance, and sleep in Medium Armor, or save up for a Mithril Agile Breastplate.

I'm playing this character right now, sort of. She is level 3: Level 2 Ranger/Level 1 Monk. I was hoping to work in Great Cleave, a Greatsword, and Attacks of Opportunity, but her AC is waaaay too low. She got shredded the last time she was in melee, and she wasn't playing out-of-tier. I have ditched her Greatsword for a Longsword and Shield. Her next level will be a level in Ranger so she can sleep in an Agile Breastplate, and she will get Greater Grapple at level 7. Her progression will have been

1R1: Power Attack, Cleave, Freebooter's Bane
2R2: Precise Shot
3R2Monk1: Unamred 1d6, Improved Grapple, Blind Fighting
4R3M1: Endurance
5R3M1Cavalier1: Coordinated Maneuvers (It was going to be Broken Wing Gambit.), Feat (I dunno: Rapid Shot, Body Shield?)
6R3M1C2: Expert Captor
7R3M1C2Somthing with a +1BAB: Greater Grapple and maybe some other stuff.

Moonheart wrote:

There is a lot to lose when sacrifying monk levels, which counts for...

- Unarmed Damage
- Quinggong powers
- Cumulation of styles
Your "3 levels in Ranger, 2 levels in Cavalier, 5 levels in Alchemist or 4 levels in Alchemist and 1 in White Haired Witch" halves your monk levels, which will nets you a lost of 2 styles in your mix (out of 5), -12 to CMB, half your unarmed damage, some AC, some nasty high level ki powers and the ability to throw the Dirty Trick-Unarmed Attack-Grapple with a single action.

Fair to say. Ironic, really: on paper, my character is very complicated, but in Combat, she only does 2 things: Shoots people and Grapples them to Tie them Up.

I think by level 6, her GMB will be quite respectable: +2 Improved Grapple, +2 Greater Grapple, +2 Coordinated Maneuvers, +6 BAB, +2-3 for ST, + some for magic items. What's your character's Grapple Mod at level 6 or 7? I don't really remember what Dragon, Kraken, and Grabbing styles do for your GMB.

Between levels 6-10, her GMB will catch up, maybe even pull ahead. With 4 levels in Alchemist, her GMB will go up by +3 for BAB, +4 for a Tentacle, and +2 for a Crab Familiar. I was thinking of a Protector Familiar which after 3 levels in Alchemist will give her a +2 AC, and after 5 levels will give her like double her hit points. In addition, she can play a trick with True Strike that will let her use it 2X in 1 round, given 2 rounds of Buffing. So by like level 9 or so, she will have like a 90% chance of taking out almost any creature with a GMD of 50 or less, and take them out in a single round.

She will take the Grenadier Archetype, so she will continue to grow as an archer. She will get that Alchemal Weapon thing and Explosive Missile. Exploding Arrows are cool.

Since there is technically no limit to how many opponents you can have Grappled, I was thinking she might Cleave with the Tentacle as a Standard Action then Tie Up 2 opponents, 1 as a Move Action, 1 as a Swift Action. If I could have made it work, maybe for another character, I might do this with White Hair, and work in Broken Wing Gambit. I don't have quite enough levels to do that in Pathfinder Society.

Moonheart wrote:
Plus, I have to challenge you to find serious DM that will accept your character at his table being a cavalierlchimistangeritchmonk

Oh, I have played a similar character in PFS already. I got her up to level 9. Most GMs are like you, seeing the way to get a powerful character as happening through the attainment of high-level Class Abilities rather than through the accumulation of low-level Abilities and sundry bonuses. Most GMs and players see my characters as overcomplicated and underpowered until they see what they can do. I remember one time the GM shakes his head sadly, looking across the table at me saying, "The Hezrou Demon's Grab succeeds. You have the Grappled Condition and are in the Demon's mouth." The next round, I had the Demon Grappled and Tied Up. It was kind of epic.

The next night, I played the same character again, and did something similar to a Rhamoraz(?). I had some Iron Rope. Immediately following my successful Tie Up, the next player whose turn it was had to use the Command Word to turn the 'Rope into Iron. Polar Worms can melt through iron bars fast, but we had just enough time to grab the magic egg and run down the mountainside with an army of angry natives chasing us, screaming for our blood. Some people get awfully touchy about defiling their gods and stealing their holy relics.

But admittedly, that is Pathfinder Society. PFS GMs are supposed to be bound by RAW, and however odd my builds are, I fastidiously keep them technically legal, and that's the best kind of legal. Another sort of GM may not appreciate my creativity, but even so, I haven't had any real problems.

Moonheart wrote:
Those ideas are nice, but just not what I'm seeking.

Well, that's the bottom line, isn't it? I certainly don't expect you to just use my build: especially not you. You clearly have your own gushing fountain of creativity to drink from. But it is my hope that you or another reader might find some of my ideas interesting, entertaining, and maybe even useful.


Very simple very powerful way to build a gappler is with a battle oracle. You're a full Bab grappler. You have the option to be great with a weapon. On the 5% chance they roll a nat 20 you can force a reroll. This also means you can provide support while grappling. Your buffs to attack apply to grapples like divine favor, blessing of fervor, and righteous might can buff you further.

If you want a game changing move start with a surprising charge swift action, grapple as a standard and move back to your original spot with a greater grapple.

You want to watch someone surrender, have a wall of allies between the boss whome you are grappling and their henchmen. It's fun and very dramatic.

You can also dispel freedom of movment and with ghost spike armor you can incorporeals, if you want, or just use instant weapon and wack them.


Level 6 is quite an unfair reference for comparaison of CMB: a full monk cannot take greater grapple before level 8, so naturaly, it will not be at its advantage as a grapple at level 7-8 against a full BAB class/mix

However, this is only at level 6. There is absolutly no feat, stat or item that you can take with your multiclassing that a full make cannot take, so they are non-topic to compare the efficiency of the alternative.

Only differences counts, and the difference between your proposal and mine are BAB and bonus.
That said, a pure MoMS reach 24 CMB prior to any feat, attribute or item, and I do not thinks your proposal to better despite or its bonus

---------------

But to reach a CMB which is not better or just slightly better, what do you have sacrified?

1- Damage

You say you can tie someone in one round, so you don't need to damage. A pure MoMS can also tie someone in one round, but it will do in the process WISx3 +12 damage doing so.

Also, a tied opponent is pinned. He's not dead nor powerless.
If you decide to try to use grappling for damage to completly neutralize him, you will do 1d10+STR damage, while the pure MoMS will do 2D10+STR*2+WIS+4 damage

2- Powerful ki powers

It's nice to be able to shoot people, but the pure MoMS could also use Blood Crow Strike to punch people from 100ft distance for 2d10+STR*2 damage per attack, half being almost impossible to reduce
That's how powerful some ki powers are.

3- AC, movement speed, saves, ability to grapple 2 opponents at a time, to dirty trick and grapple in the same round, to grapple as counter... and many other little things

-------------------

Lastly, you used the term of "technicaly legal" to talk about such a build... and right, it's technical legal... but in a roleplaying game "technicaly legal" is just not enough.

The problem with such a complex mix is not a problem of rules, but a problem of roleplay: what kind of credible background can you weave to justify that your character is at a same time a Cavalier, a Ranger, an Alchimist, a Witch and a Monk at a same time?

It would be like to find in reality someone that is at a same time a surgeon, a accountant, a pro sportsman, a scientist, a politician and housewife...


Moonheart wrote:
Level 6 is quite an unfair reference for comparaison of CMB

It's not unfair at all! If you have a level 1 character that you propose to make a level 20 character, almost definitely, that character will be level 6 at some point. "What will this character be like at level 6?" is totally a fair question.

You asked us directly:

You wrote:
Now, what I need to do is to come with against ennemies that I will not be able to grapple... What would you suggest to use?

My answer is given in good faith according to what the rules say: be good at things other than Grappling, and when you run into something you can't Grapple, do one of those other things. I say Grappling doesn't really come into its own until level 6. Your build doesn't really get good at Grappling until level 8, and you don't even get Greater Grapple until Level 9. Either way, 6, 8, or 9 levels is plenty of time to get good at something else other than Grappling. I think shooting people works pretty well, and you can get good at shooting people at a fairly low cost in Feats and levels.

Moonheart wrote:

1- Improved Grapple + Snake Style

2- Grabbing Style
3- Dragon Style
5- Kraken Style

I observe you have 4 Style Feats by level 5. I advise against this.

Monk, Master of Many Styles, Fuse Style wrote:
At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once.... At 8th level, the master of many styles can fuse three styles at once. He can have the stances of three style feats active at the same time.

You can't even use all 3 Style Feats at level 3. Drop one. Don't take a 3rd Style Feat until at least level 8: that's when you can use one. I think it is a problem to use too many Styles. Each Style takes a Swift Action to activate, and you only get 1 Swift Action/Round. 4 Rounds is a long time to wait for your goodies.

That being said, Kraken Style does increase your GMB by +2, and that would be a good Bonus Style Feat for my suggested build and its level in Unarmed Fighter. Thanks for the tip.

Moonheart wrote:
full monk cannot take greater grapple before level 8

If you were an Unchained Monk, you would be a Full BAB characer and could take Greater Grapple by level 6.

Moonheart wrote:
There is absolutely no feat, stat or item that you can take with your multiclassing that a full make cannot take, so they are non-topic to compare the efficiency of the alternative.

That is not true. Expert Captor is a Class Ability of Cavalier, Order of the Penitent. There is no other way to get it, and it has a devastating Grapple effect. Coordinated Maneuvers is a Feat that anyone can take, but it is a Teamwork Feat, and your GM is likely not going to allow you to use that Feat unless your allies take the Feat, too. Cavaliers have a Class Ability to grant their Teamwork Feat to their Allies. Neither MOMS nor Tetori nor even Quinngong Monks can do that to my knowledge.

The Tentacle is an Alchemist Discovery, and you can't get it without taking levels in Alchemist. Granted, there are other ways of getting Grab. But Tentacles have uses beyond Grab.

The King Crab Tumor Familiar is also an Alchemist Discovery. I think there is a Feat that a Monk can take that will let him have a Familiar, but remember that a Crab is an Aquatic creature, and that creates inconveniences if your campaign doesn't just happen to be a waterbourne one. If your Aquatic Familiar is also a Tumor, that solves that problem. I found a nifty use for the Fast Healing 5, too.

Moonheart wrote:
That said, a pure MoMS reach 24 CMB prior to any feat, attribute or item, and I do not thinks your proposal to better despite or its bonus

Interesting. How? and at what levels is your CMB what? Like I said, and I have been very forthcoming with my tricks, I was able to get my level 9 Grappler character up to a full time +30 GMB.

Moonheart wrote:
You say you can tie someone in one round, so you don't need to damage. A pure MoMS can also tie someone in one round, but it will do in the process WISx3 +12 damage doing so.

Really? Walk me through it. At what level does that come online? And when do your bonuses surpass mine by +10? You take a -10 penalty when you attempt the Tie Up Action. My characters don't.

That being said, my character has a strong limitation. They are forbidden to kill people. That is one of the Edicts of the Order of the Penitent. All those people Hester will be feathering with her arrows she has to administer 1st aid to.

Moonheart wrote:
Also, a tied opponent is pinned. He's not dead nor powerless.

A Tied Up opponent is in a very bad place.

Pinned Condition wrote:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class....A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell.

And at level 9, Olga's GMB was +30 Full time, so the Concentration Check is at least 40, and the Escape DC is 50. Those seem high. And that assumes I forget to tell the GM that I also gag the spellcaster. And I don't forget that.

Moonheart wrote:
3- AC,

My character's AC will be all right. She wears Armor. Her Familiar gives her a +2 AC (sort of). She also gets extra hit points. She has Blind Fighting. She could use a Ranger Wand that gives her Scent. She could also get an Eversmoking Bottle, Blinding everybody, including herself, but between Scent and Blindfighting, she is still quite effective while Blinded. Most other creatures aren't. She will enjoy a 50% Miss Chance. There you go: another trick you can use. I'm giving you gold, here!

Moonheart wrote:
movement speed,

You got that. But while there are lots of things that can outrun her, there aren't many things that can outrun her arrows.

Moonheart wrote:
saves,

Oh, I think my characters' saves are all right. When you Multiclass, your saves go up fast. At level 3, for instance, Hester's Base Saves are Fort +5, Reflex +5, and Will +2 compared with Level 3 Monks' Base Saves of +3/+3/+3. At some point, my characters stop adding classes, and stop spiking their Saves, but not before level 12.

Moonheart wrote:
ability to grapple 2 opponents at a time,

I have a way to do that. I was thinking of using Great Cleave in conjunction with a Tentacle or Witch's White Hair. My PFS character will have to use her Tentacle, but the White Hair has a very special advantage. When you Grapple someone with your Hair, they are Grappled; you aren't. That means you can still make Attacks of Opportunity. I was thinking Broken Wing Gambit. After you have Grappled every Adjacent Opponent and Tied Up 2 of them, every time one of those other ones attempt to escape or attack you, you get an Attack of Opportunity. If you use your 'Hair, scoring another Free Action Grapple that with Expert Captor, you can use to Tie Up your victims. If any are left, you can Grapple them all again via Great Cleave and White Hair, and so it goes. But that takes more than 12 levels to make it work right, unless I make some hard choices.

Moonheart wrote:
to dirty trick and grapple in the same round, to grapple as counter... and many other little things

Fair to say: my build doesn't do Dirty Tricks. But with lots of classes, she has no shortage of many little things she can do.


Moonheart wrote:
what kind of credible background can you weave to justify that your character... It would be like to find in reality someone that is at a same time a surgeon, a accountant, a pro sportsman, a scientist, a politician and housewife...

I think of it more as someone who is a Special Forces soldier who is a passable medic, who can deploy from a helicopter, use a parachute, knows how to scuba dive, and knows how to blow stuff up. Such persons exist. I've known a couple. I also have a friend who is an Electrical Engineer and a patent lawyer with a PhD in the former and also an MBA. For his Bachelor's Degree, he majored in Math, Physics, and Electrical Engineering.

I heard it's not uncommon for some Accountants to only work during party of the year--tax season--and spend the rest of their lives touring their rock and roll bands, mountain climbing, or whatever they love but can't earn money at.

I have a science teacher friend who races yachts.

Anyway, it's not unreasonable for a fantasy hero to have eclectic talents.

Moonheart wrote:

Lastly, you used the term of "technicaly legal"...

The problem with such a complex mix is not a problem of rules, but a problem of roleplay:

I handle roleplaying problems by roleplaying.


Perfect Tommy wrote:
Moonheart wrote:

Well, those are fun ideas, but I don't think they will come any close to the power of a Tetori or a Master of Many Style/Wildcat monk

The MoMS/Wildat, as I explained in your other thread, net a 28 base CMB at level 20 prior any attribute modifier, feat or item bonus.
That's probably the highest CMB base you can find in all classes, and the MoMS Wilcat will also combine several grappling styles, allowing him to do things that no other class or archetype can, not even a Tetori.

Naturaly, a Tetori will stay the "king" of grappling because he's more reliable due to his ability to counter anti-grapple abilities and spells. Yet, as long you don't land on a caster having used Freedom of Movement before you reach him or an uncorporeal creature, the MoMS Wildcat could be even more deadly than the Tetori if you fully optimize him for grapple.

Yet, this is not my goal here.
What I seek to obtain is not something with two different ways to attacks: grapples, and an alternative ways to deal decent damage against thing that cannot be grappled.

Nah. I have a 5 class dip that is +40 on grapple at level 11. There are a lot of grapple boni out there. The trick is doublechecking all the stacking

How do you do it? I'm always looking for something I missed.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Another idea I had would be to incorporate some of those ideas with Unchained Monk, a level in White Haired Witch, and Feral Combat Training. The idea being you would Flurry with your Hair which will score you mulitple free grapple attacks with you can tie up opponets with.

I spent a little time fleshing out how this would work.

1Cavalier1: Coordinated Maneuvers, Tactician, Power Attack
2C1Unchained Monk1: Improved Grapple, Flurry of Blows
3C1M1Witch1: White Hair, Weapon Focus Hair
4C2M1W1: Expert Captor
5C2M1W1Fighter1: Eldritch Guardian, Feral Combat Training
6C2M1W1F2: Share Training

So this character can use Flurry of Blows with her Hair. And when she hits with her hair, she can Grapple as a Free Action. Unlike the Grab Ability, she is not limited to "starting a Grapple" with her White Hair. That means that when she hits you a 2nd time with her 'Hair, her next action can be Tie Up.

Moonheart wrote:
Level 6 is quite an unfair reference for comparaison of CMB: a full monk cannot take greater grapple before level 8, so naturaly, it will not be at its advantage as a grapple at level 7-8 against a full BAB class/mix

Level 9--when your character gets Greater Grapple--is a long time to wait. This idea gives you a character who can Grapple you into near helplessness--Tied Up: unable to Move, unable to take any physical action except try to escape, unable to cast any spell with nonverbal components, and having high DC for either escaping or casting, Flatfooted -4 AC--in a single round. And this one can it do it at level 5.

And that is a legitimate alternative to your build, even if, by level 20, your character will have the higher GMB.

Over the next couple of levels--I'm not sure how this would go--She would take Great Cleave and Broken Wing Gambit (and Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler, of course). With Great Cleave, she could have every single adjacent opponent Grappled as a Standard Action. With Greater Grapple, she could then Tie Up one of them. With Rapid Grappler, she could Tie Up a 2nd as a Swift Action. With Broken Wing Gambit, she and her Familiar will get Attacks of Opportunity in her Opponents' Rounds as they try to escape or fight back. Those Attack of Opportunity can be Hair Attacks, and she can Tie them Up then, too!

The problem with this build is that this is truly a committed Grappler. My other build, the character is also an archer. And neither character has a Grappling answer to Freedom of Movement. It seems like an interesting thought experiment, and maybe even a fun build, but as a minmaxer, I think White Hair + Great Cleave is something to wait on. And by the time I'm ready for those, I could do Snake Fang instead of BWG.

But I'd like others' opinions.

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