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Touch spells delivered by Unarmed / Natural / Spellstrike attacks


Rules Questions


I'm in a debate with another player regarding how damage works in the instance of touch spells when they are delivered by an attack (further extending to the spell storing enchantment).

We're both pretty clear on how the rules work for actually performing this action, where we are at odds is whether the spell effect is considered bonus damage to the weapon, or if they are treated as separate damage instances.

The specific reason for this debate is the Mythic Vital Strike and Mythic Improved Vital Strike.

One stance is that the spell is a rider and is discharged at the time of the successful weapon attack, but the weapon damage and spell effect are separate and resolved separately, despite occurring simultaneously.

The other stance is that the damage is done at the same time, so the spell damage is a bonus to the weapon damage and counts for the multiplication from mythic improved vital strike.

We're getting nowhere in this debate, as it's really coming down a situation of nothing implicitly stating the damage is bonus damage, and only the wording from touch spells in combat stating "If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges." being interpreted as the weapon damage occurs and the spell discharged as separate instance occurring simultaneously.

Any FAQ or official references that could be pointed to would be of great help.


it would not work with vital strike well it would but just one time example shocking grasp does 5d6 dmg and when using vital strike with the mythic variants it would do 5d6 on top of the weapon dmg if it crits it does double dmg


For Spellstoring:

"Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires."

To me that implies that the damage is a trigger, and therefore separate...they're not simultaneous, there's a fractional delay.


The spell damage is separate and not multiplied by vital strike / mythic vital strike.

On a separate note: if your running a mythic vital strike build with improved vital strike and not one-shoting opponents without relying on spellstrike, you are doing something wrong.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

The spell damage is separate and not multiplied by vital strike / mythic vital strike.

On a separate note: if your running a mythic vital strike build with improved vital strike and not one-shoting opponents without relying on spellstrike, you are doing something wrong.

Hey now, occasionally you actually run into an opponent that takes two hits. : )


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
The spell damage is separate and not multiplied by vital strike / mythic vital strike.

Is there anything you can point to which confirms this?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree as I don't want to say which side of the debate I'm on just to leave bias out of anyone's reply since the other party isn't here to throw in, but regardless of which side of the debate is correct, it won't be accepted without some kind of supporting ruling or comment from an official Paizo source.


AsheraEclipse wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
The spell damage is separate and not multiplied by vital strike / mythic vital strike.

Is there anything you can point to which confirms this?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree as I don't want to say which side of the debate I'm on just to leave bias out of anyone's reply since the other party isn't here to throw in, but regardless of which side of the debate is correct, it won't be accepted without some kind of supporting ruling or comment from an official Paizo source.

spell damage is spell damage and weapon damage is weapon damage


Quote:
spell damage is spell damage and weapon damage is weapon damage

Again though is there anything official at all you can point to that says spell damage can't be added as bonus damage to weapon attacks?

One of the stances is essentially that any damage done as part of an attack roll is bonus damage in a mechanical sense.


Look at it this way: The spell isn't even the same action. Per the above quote, it's a free action taken separately after the weapon strikes. Does that help?


blahpers wrote:
Look at it this way: The spell isn't even the same action. Per the above quote, it's a free action taken separately after the weapon strikes. Does that help?

It does for spell storing, for sure. Not sure it'll convince for regular touch spell delivery since the touch spells in combat simply says the weapon does normal damage and the spell discharges.


Can anyone point me to anything official at all regarding whether the spell discharging after a unarmed or natural attack is a free action of its own similar to a spell storing weapon?

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