So not a single person beside Nethys saw past this paradigm even though there were ways to gain other types of spells like the Magic domain for the Cleric? A Lich with thousands of years of continuous study and a genius intellect couldn't see past a "paradigm?"People have been seeing past the Paradigm since the CRB. They were called Mystic Theurges... and if you'll notice they were frequently considered "weaker" casters, for generalizing rather than specializing.
But even besides that, why is magic generally weaker? Because, if you'll notice, the casters learned how to do things other than just sling spells. They learned how to have tricks that aren't quite so limited in a day but are stronger than Cantrips. We in a meta angle call them "Class features", and they were fairly lacking in most 9-level casters (excepting maybe Oracle and possibly Arcanist.)
Mystic Theurges cast using to different sources. That's the point. They cast divine spells with a divine class and arcane with an arcane class.
Magic *isn't* weaker. There's just less use and less need for narrowly focusing on mastering spellcasting and nothing else. Most of the things 7th-9th level spells do, are better done *other ways* in a world with advanced technology and industrialized technomagic. If you need a Gate, you don't find a high level archmage, you instead build one in a factory. If you need to blow something up, you don't cast a Meteor Swarm, you just shoot it with artillery.
Thus, the magical classes that are most common intermix spellcasting with other, also useful, powers and skills. This is not because you *can't* narrowly dedicate yourself, but because the vast majority of adventurers *don't*, because it doesn't pay off.
Magic is certainly weaker if you are *unable* to cast the higher order magic outside of Wish through a class feature. Being able to create your own Gate is way better than building one in a factory which can't be done anyway. Meteor Swarm was always a weaker spells anyway.
Tech has maybe taken some of the place of the weaker magics but it hasn't supplanted the higher order stuff. Eloritu teaches this exact thing. He doesn't believe technology can totally replace magic.
In fact, what you're saying almost says the exact opposite of your point. If I don't have to waste my time learning light when I can buy a flashlight, shouldn't that leave me more time to learn the stronger stuff?
Letting the casters have decent weapons that require little training means they should be better able to specialize in magic. Tech is supposed to be user-friendly after all.
Most of the lower order stuff can be done with tech like a grenade acting like Burning Hands.
No Tech can equal Time Stop, Soul Bind, Wail of the Banshee, Weird, Mage's Disjunction, Greater Create Demiplane, and Communal Mind Blank to name a few. And don't say Wish because it explicitly only duplicates 8th or lower spells. (unless you want to risk a Jackass Genie GM.)
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Since Plane Shift and planar metropolises still exist the Pact Worlds should find it laughably easy to learn about high level magic if it still exists in the multiverse. The fact that no one has learned about 9th level spells in Axis, Dis, the City of Brass, or Abraxas's domain indicates it dried up during the Gap.
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Since Plane Shift and planar metropolises still exist the Pact Worlds should find it laughably easy to learn about high level magic if it still exists in the multiverse. The fact that no one has learned about 9th level spells in Axis, Dis, the City of Brass, or Abraxas's domain indicates it dried up during the Gap.
Or as people have suggested on the first page, learning to use it requires a level of dedication and specialization that generally doesn't repay the amount of time and effort, or is unappealing/untenable for an average adventurer. It could be (although this could also be a false equivalent) like someone learning how to make grass structures nowadays. Something that you could research easily online, but takes a ton of time and effort to make, and is considered unnecessary to most people.
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So not a single person beside Nethys saw past this paradigm even though there were ways to gain other types of spells like the Magic domain for the Cleric? A Lich with thousands of years of continuous study and a genius intellect couldn't see past a "paradigm?"People have been seeing past the Paradigm since the CRB. They were called Mystic Theurges... and if you'll notice they were frequently considered "weaker" casters, for generalizing rather than specializing.
But even besides that, why is magic generally weaker? Because, if you'll notice, the casters learned how to do things other than just sling spells. They learned how to have tricks that aren't quite so limited in a day but are stronger than Cantrips. We in a meta angle call them "Class features", and they were fairly lacking in most 9-level casters (excepting maybe Oracle and possibly Arcanist.)
Mystic Theurges cast using to different sources. That's the point. They cast divine spells with a divine class and arcane with an arcane class.
I beg to differ.
Combined Spells (Su)
A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes.
So they are using spell slots from any class to cast the spells they learned through any other class. That is, to me at least, obviously the first step to just bringing the magic types together. In fact, I would argue the only reason spells cross-cast like this raise spell level is because they learned X spell had to be cast X way, so trying to cast it Y way requires improvising a system, which would likely be less efficient. Now... imagine a world where they didn't learn X spell could only be cast X way, but that instead it could also be cast V, W, Y, or Z ways, because the magic is the same regardless of how you're personally learning it. And that all of these ways are, through centuries of practice, more efficient than the scratch improvisations the Mystic Theurges of Pathfinder era were doing.
Also notice the highest modified level a Mystic Theurge can reach: Level 6 (using level 5 spells). Seem familiar?
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Since Plane Shift and planar metropolises still exist the Pact Worlds should find it laughably easy to learn about high level magic if it still exists in the multiverse. The fact that no one has learned about 9th level spells in Axis, Dis, the City of Brass, or Abraxas's domain indicates it dried up during the Gap.Or as people have suggested on the first page, learning to use it requires a level of dedication and specialization that generally doesn't repay the amount of time and effort, or is unappealing/untenable for an average adventurer. It could be (although this could also be a false equivalent) like someone learning how to make grass structures nowadays. Something that you could research easily online, but takes a ton of time and effort to make, and is considered unnecessary to most people.
Yup. Like, even the "masterworks" of the past are actually inferior to the basics of the present. A Stradivirias violin is objectively inferior in construction to a $10 factory construct, and while you can learn to make said violin yourself, the time constraints and the output just don't match up. High-order magic is still done...on the macro level (like the various hybrid technologies and, more than likely, in the construction of superstructures), but most people won't bother to specialize that tightly.
Also, interestingly, a few "high level" spells can still be cast at lower levels (like regeneration, reincarnate, interplanetary teleport, control gravity) all exist...at lower spell levels. It's possible many of the most powerful magic has been streamlined to be usable even without specialization, but some spells just get left by the wayside.
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Yup. Like, even the "masterworks" of the past are actually inferior to the basics of the present. A Stradivirias violin is objectively inferior in construction to a $10 factory construct...
That isn't even remotely true, a violin worth millions like a Stadivirias may be indistinguishable from a $50,000 masterwork violin of today, but both are far superior in every measurable way to a factory mass produced violin.
Your argument is kind of like saying that a artisan's handcrafted desk from the 1800s is the same quality as a desk you put together from IKEA.
Again, just because the Mystic and Technomancer classes can't cast a spell, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means. . . those classes can't cast the spell. There is no evidence of any kind of "magic reboot" in the setting, nor some kind of cosmological weakening. 7th to 9th level spells just aren't considered worth the effort for adventurers.
I just don't understand this. Take one look at the Tier list and see where the lvl 9 casters are and where the lvl 6 casters are.
Yes, martials are much improved in this game but they absolutely do not replace the high level spells. And don't tell me tech does either. Can't stop time with a computer.
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Again, just because the Mystic and Technomancer classes can't cast a spell, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means. . . those classes can't cast the spell. There is no evidence of any kind of "magic reboot" in the setting, nor some kind of cosmological weakening. 7th to 9th level spells just aren't considered worth the effort for adventurers.I just don't understand this. Take one look at the Tier list and see where the lvl 9 casters are and where the lvl 6 casters are.
Yes, martials are much improved in this game but they absolutely do not replace the high level spells. And don't tell me tech does either. Can't stop time with a computer.
First off, teir lists don't exist in universe/game, only really measure combat effectiveness, and don't address the issue that many full casters are fairly ineffective at low levels.
It might also be the amount of time, energy, or monetary investment makes it impractical for people to solely focus on, unless they are obsessed with it or have enough money. In which case they're unlikely to also be interested in or need to go adventuring.
Finally we don't know if there are not any computers that can stop time, we don't have rules for them if there are, but there's not anything definitive.
On a different note, maybe the Pact Worlds have outlawed the use of spells over 7th level with a special exception of wish and miracle which requires getting approval and the correct documentation much like being able to access higher level items.
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Again, just because the Mystic and Technomancer classes can't cast a spell, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means. . . those classes can't cast the spell. There is no evidence of any kind of "magic reboot" in the setting, nor some kind of cosmological weakening. 7th to 9th level spells just aren't considered worth the effort for adventurers.I just don't understand this. Take one look at the Tier list and see where the lvl 9 casters are and where the lvl 6 casters are.
Yes, martials are much improved in this game but they absolutely do not replace the high level spells. And don't tell me tech does either. Can't stop time with a computer.
Maybe your computer can't.
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On a different note, maybe the Pact Worlds have outlawed the use of spells over 7th level with a special exception of wish and miracle which requires getting approval and the correct documentation much like being able to access higher level items.
If only the Pact Worlds had thought to outlaw piracy, corporate malfeasance, or invasions by bug swarms and lizard men, much sorrow could have been prevented.
"Did that level 20 Technomancer have a license to cast that Wish?"
"You mean the guy who can invisibly shoot people through walls with a 10d10+4d6 sniper rifle from thousands of feet away and then Teleport away to his unknown lair on any planet, moon, or asteroid in the system? Why don't YOU ask him. And find out what he really looks like under that Veil and Nondetection while you're at it."
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Again, just because the Mystic and Technomancer classes can't cast a spell, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means. . . those classes can't cast the spell. There is no evidence of any kind of "magic reboot" in the setting, nor some kind of cosmological weakening. 7th to 9th level spells just aren't considered worth the effort for adventurers.
These spells don't even have to be not considered worth the effort for adventurers. They just aren't cast by classes in the Core Rulebook. It is very likely that we will get 9/9 casters in a later rulebook (like in Starfinder's equivalent of the Advanced Player's Guide).
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Just read the description of Amaznen (Azlanti god of Magic) in The Flooded Cathedral.
There are many similarities and hints that Eloritu and Amaznen are linked, maybe even the same (though the alignment is LN for Amaznen).
To name : two gods of magic and secret knowledge, and both with a very strong link to glyphs/runes :-)
The description of Amaznen's demise is interestingly worded too
Just read the description of Amaznen (Azlanti god of Magic) in The Flooded Cathedral.
There are many similarities and hints that Eloritu and Amaznen are linked, maybe even the same (though the alignment is LN for Amaznen).
To name : two gods of magic and secret knowledge, and both with a very strong link to glyphs/runes :-)
The description of Amaznen's demise is interestingly worded too
You know what I hate? All those gods of magic who believe in complete openness of magical knowledge and think glyphs/runes are bad and shouldn't be used.
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These spells don't even have to be not considered worth the effort for adventurers.
Actually, most creatures on PF Golarion don't consider level 7 to 9 spells worth the enormous effort either. Otherwise magic schools, temples or pacts with supernatural powers would be way more common. Even among adventurers, only so many are full casters - and some of them will retire before reaching this lofty goal.
You could totally go the 40K route. There is nothing stopping you from doing that. The references to Pathfinder Golarion could certainly qualify as winks and nods + Pantheon.
If, however, you want them to be in the same universe here is my headcanon:
For arcanists the answer is simple: No-one commits themselves to the study of arcane magic as much as was done in days of antiquity and so they do not gain access to many 7-9th level spells. This is represented by the fact they have 3/4 BAB instead of 1/2 BAB. In Pathfinder terms there are no characters that have dedicated themselves to Sorcerer 20. Instead they have multiclassed and are Sorcerer 12/Fighter 8 (or some other combination of spellcaster/non-spellcaster).
Divine casters aren't as easy to explain because they were already 3/4 BAB. This might be my 4th edition roots showing, but for me divine casters do not learn or cast spells the same way wizards do. They are actually calling upon the power of their gods and act as a conduit to change the laws of reality to do what they want. So the fact their BAB hasn't changed raises the question of why do their gods not give them the same power? Are they not as dedicated as the clerics in times of antiquity?
So my solution to that is that the gods divest a certain amount of energy into a cleric depending on how great of an understanding and how harmonious the cleric's soul is with the god's teachings. The god does not determine how the cleric uses that power. The cleric does. This empowers the cleric by removing the ability for a god to say "no, you cannot cast that spell in this situation. Instead I will give you the benefits of this other spell"* The cleric has full agency over what they do with the power granted to them by their deity (if they misuse that power to such a significant degree that it causes their soul to no longer be in harmony with the ethos of the god, then they lose their spellcasting ability). In days of yore clerics would use almost all of that energy in casting spells with only a small amount set aside for domain powers and channeling energy. In Starfinder's present clerics assign that divine energy in completely different ways. They don't put as much of the energy into spells and instead put more of it into other abilities such as: healing touch, mindlink, telepathic bond, and the healing powers which are frankly far more powerful than most domain powers ever were. In addition the energy they put into spells are assigned differently as well. Instead of having fewer spells, but having more powerful spells, Starfinder-era clerics choose to have less powerful spells, but to have more spells of each level (they get 6 spells of each spell level at level 20). Finally Starfinder-era clerics do dedicate themselves less to their mystic connection then those of the Pathfinder era. This is represented by the fact they get 4 extra skill points every level. Their mystic studies take a hit to give them that extra versatility in non-magical areas of their life.
Now for the distinction being removed between divine, arcane and psychic casters. I argue that it is still there. A mystic who has a mystic connection with a deity is a divine caster. A mystic whose mystic connection is their draconic ancestry is an arcane caster. A mystic who was born with an innate ability to cast magic (and also takes the Phrenic Adept archetype) is a psychic caster.
Now in days of yore casters had to perform a lot of unnecessary actions in order to cast spells. Wizards would use bat feces and tufts of wool and other assorted items, casters would hold up a holy symbol and focus on it as they prey to their deity, while sorcerers did neither of these things but had their spellcasting delayed compared to the other two classes. Today these "focusing" elements which were required to allow ancient spellcasters to warp reality to match the desired outcome are no longer necessary. Casters have become sufficiently advanced in their craft that they no longer need to wave their arms about or say funny words in strange languages. Instead they can simply take a few seconds to arrange their thoughts in such a way as to allow them to use their mystic connection (or their understanding of the magical laws of the universe) to enact the change on reality that they desire. I believe wizards would have led the charge in the advancement of magic. But their teachings and discoveries would have eventually made it's way to clerics, sorcerers, oracles and other spellcasters.
Finally for the spell lists: there is no such thing as an arcane spell, divine spell or psychic spell. Almost all spells are on an more than one list and the more archetypes and classes that are produced for pathfinder the more those lines blur. The reason times of yore most clerics couldn't cast fireball, is because the teachings they were taught simply did not include fireballs. The reason wizards couldn't learn cure light wounds** was because they had not discovered the correct formula that allowed them to do so. In the far future of Golarion's universe, wizards have learned how to cast cure light wounds and clerics have learned that it isn't against the ethos of their deity to cast fireball and so they have learned how to.
If a cleric and wizard from the ancient past was to be teleported to the present day of Starfinder, they would not find their spells suddenly gone. A cleric could still cast all the same spells as they could before (assuming their god isn't dead). Because the god only gave the cleric some of it's power and so it would still be giving the cleric the same amount. The wizard would still be able to cast high level spells because his understanding of the universe and the laws of magic are still valid. However he'd still have to wave his arms about, say the right words in the funny language and use up the right material component. Because the wizard can only knows how to cast the spell they want by using those tools to focus the magical energies to enact the specific change on the universe. And they could teach a present day Starfinder person how to do those things as well. Although the present day person would probably find the arduous hours required to master magic in this way, and the need to perform such archaic and specific gestures and such strange and very specific words and tone a pain, let alone having to source all of the correct material components (which may or may not be native to his world). Most people who have the correct natural talents to become spellcasters would probably prefer to spend their time on the more efficient and modern spellcasting practices and give them more time to do other things (as represented by the 2-4 extra skill points they get for those other classes).
* I've never seen this happen in a 3.5e/Pathfinder game, but it was quite common for certain DMs back in AD&D 2e to say that this is a reasonable thing the gods would do.
** And I believe wizards can cast cure light wounds so that limitation is completely null and void anyway.
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That's all very long and rambly. But that is my head canon and how the Golarion universe works in my game (cause I'm back to being the DM again).