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Vestigial Arm + 4 Great Axes + Natural Attacks. Can You Mix-And-Match?


Rules Questions


I know it's been debated a bunch of times and there are answers out there, but I can't seem to find the answer for this specific case. Here's the build:

- Barbarian Titan Mauler in order to use two-handed weapons with one hand.
- Alchemist with two of the Vestigial Arms discovery and feral mutagen for a bite (and claws, but they're irrelevant in this case).
- Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a gore attack.

Vestigial Arm says:
"The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting)."

With that, we can say that the Barbarian gets one attack with his left hand, one attack with his right hand, a bite and a gore (weapon/weapon/bite/gore) if he uses a full-attack action.

Since the Vestigial Arms can hold weapons, could you forgo your bite and gore and attack with the other two arms if they were wielding items to a get an attack routine that is weapon/weapon/weapon/weapon? It's not adding additional attacks as per the rules of Vestigial Arms. Grab Multi-Weapon Fighting to reduce the penalties of using four two-handed weapons.

In a thread on the topic one of the designers mentions that a Tengu Monk with Vestigial Arms can forgo his kick attacks in favour of two weapon attacks being held in the Vestigial Arms, his bite and his two natual claw attacks. However, in an FAQ on the same subject it's stated "At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." However, technically, there's no extra attacks being granted, only attacks being replaced. Or can the Tengu only do this because his kicks are his "manufactured weapon" as per a Monk and he's simply replacing that attack with another manufactured weapon attack? I guess what it comes down to is: can you swap natural attacks at will for more manufactured weapon attacks?

I don't think a Kitsune (who has a natural bite attack) at level 1 can go from sword/bite during a full action to sword/sword just because it doesn't change the amount of attacks they get in a round, right?

Also interesting to note is this thread by the same developer where he says, "The intent is that you have an extra arm for holding stuff, not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac."

From where I'm standing, I'm not sure if it's legit to use the Vestigial Arms to attack with, so long as you have natural takes to forgo in their place (as is the example of the Monk Tengu using weapons and claw attacks). So, a Barbarian with four arms and two natural attacks, can forgo the two natural attacks and make a full-attack with all four arms and use Multi-Weapon Fighting to lower the penalties. Just wanted to see what was level, so I turn it over to you guys.

So... thoughts?


Quote:
I guess what it comes down to is: can you swap natural attacks at will for more manufactured weapon attacks?

Nope.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The FAQ is absolute in its statement, if you're using those Vestigial Arms to attack in addition to your regular arms, then it's illegal. So, 4 Greataxes won't work. This also even means that, even if an effect like Feral Mutagen gives you claw attacks, and you have limbs to carry out those claw attacks (the Vestigial Arms), you can't take them.

There's a very simple way of looking at the discovery's limitations: If you cannot make that attack routine without the Vestigial Arms, then you cannot make that attack routine with the Vestigial Arms included. It's that simple.

**EDIT** The FAQ also trumps the Tengu build, which is dated, since SKR, while a(n) (ex-)developer, is superseded by FAQs that tell us otherwise. Same goes for any other developer post; while they're nice to have to tell us the intent behind something, they aren't rules answers since FAQs have repealed such answers before.


blahpers wrote:
Quote:
I guess what it comes down to is: can you swap natural attacks at will for more manufactured weapon attacks?
Nope.

I didn't think so, as that would allow level 1 characters with a bite attack make two regular weapon attacks, which is way too unbalanced.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Quote:

The FAQ is absolute in its statement, if you're using those Vestigial Arms to attack in addition to your regular arms, then it's illegal. So, 4 Greataxes won't work. This also even means that, even if an effect like Feral Mutagen gives you claw attacks, and you have limbs to carry out those claw attacks (the Vestigial Arms), you can't take them.

There's a very simple way of looking at the discovery's limitations: If you cannot make that attack routine without the Vestigial Arms, then you cannot make that attack routine with the Vestigial Arms included. It's that simple.

**EDIT** The FAQ also trumps the Tengu build, which is dated, since SKR, while a(n) (ex-)developer, is superseded by FAQs that tell us otherwise. Same goes for any other developer post; while they're nice to have to tell us the intent behind something, they aren't rules answers since FAQs have repealed such answers before.

That's how I read it too, but I wasn't letting the FAQ trump the Tengu example, so I was a bit iffy.

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